Atheist Older Brother In Need Of Advice

[Mray3460]

About a month ago, I came out to my parents as an atheist. The important details concerning that are:
1. It was unplanned, I hesitated for slightly too long before answering the question "Have you accepted Jesus as your lord and savior?"
2. It did not go over well (at all) and
3. I was "asked" to not speak of it to any of my friends from home about it, and especially not to my younger brother and sister (I'm the oldest)(All those mentioned above already knew before my parents. The "request" was repeated after I told my parents as much). In addition, I was not to mention it to my extended family (On either side).

It is number three that I need advice concerning, albeit indirectly. My sister and I have a mutual trust: She can tell me, and I can tell her, anything without judgement, and all that is said between us is confidential (especially from our parents [read: my mom], this is how she knew I was an atheist before anyone else in the family). These talks most often take place when we go out on errands for the family together or, when I'm away at school, over the phone, while Mom is out of earshot on her end. While I respect my mother's right to raise her children as she sees fit, I know from personal experience that she's not an effective shoulder to cry on (sympathetic/empathic, yes; helpful/effective, no), believing prayer to and faith in God to be the best solution to problems of the heart, mind, and social life.

Furthermore, Mom is the source of much of my sister's stress. She hounds my sister's cell phone history (Checking the one present in the phone against the one that appears on the bill at the end of the month, and noting any discrepancies), text messages, and Facebook page (She also insists on having Admin access on my sister's computer, along with her FB and Email passwords), and often dictating actions to my sister (Take down this photo, stop what you're doing and study [Even if she's already studying, and says so, Mom will say "Then study something else"], change your status, delete this email, block this person's number, un-friend/don't speak to this person again, etc.) while offering no reason other than "Because I say so." Until recently, I was one of the few people my sister could contact without questions being asked (Being the devout, priestly, eldest son, who knew more about the bible, and religion in general, than anyone else in the family, and was no danger to my sister's vulnerable, womanly soul [My Mom's words, not mine]).

At the time of this posting, little has been done by mother concerning my sister and I's conversations. However, she has, upon reading that a call was made to or from me on my sister's phone, begun asking "What did your brother and you talk about?" and the usual line "stuff" is no longer satisfying her. With my coming return home for the summer, the issue of again living under the same roof as my mother and sister, now with my atheism out in the open, had jumped to the forefront of my mind. The prospect of being sequestered from my family, or worse, constantly being tailed by my mother while in my sister's company, or anyone else's, is deeply troubling to me.

The problem is compounded by the fact that we'll be visiting my mother's extended family (who are even more devoutly religious and protective, sending their children to Christian private schools, and criticizing my mother for not doing the same with us, leaving us "vulnerable") this summer. I'm the eldest grandchild on that side of the family, and have repeatably been held up as the spiritual, academic, and personal role model for my cousins (One eagerly accepted by said cousins, a few of which damn near worship the dirt off my boots)(I've been considered my mother's "Trump-Card," the refutation to all the family's statements that she was too lax with her children concerning faith). No-one there has been told of my deconversion, and I fear that I may be asked to play my old role, one that I fear I am no longer emotionally capable of playing.

I came on the Escapist planning to post this in "Religion and Politics," as I usually do when I have a matter of the spirit to discuss and, for the first time, noticed the Advice Forum, and realized that this would be the better place to ask:

Does anyone have any advice on any of this? Has anyone had similar experiences and, if so, how did they play out in the end? Is there anything I can do? Anything I definitely should not do? Anything at all?

Spoiler: Additional Information

My sister and father are both moderate Baptists [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist].


My mother, despite claiming to be non-denominational, was raised as an Evangelical Lutheran [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America], and continues to share most of the beliefs associated with that denomination (Most especially those in this chart [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism#Comparison_among_Protestants], under the Lutheranism heading). The only reason she isn't an Evangelical Lutheran is to (Her words) spite her father and (extrapolating) the rest of her family, who are all still Evangelical Lutherans.

I myself have been an atheist for coming up on a year now, my sister has known since last Christmas. I haven't been a Christian for far longer though, being a Deist before that and dabbling in various other religions before that.

I am not taking my sister's word for it concerning my mother's behavior. She operated in much the same way with my brother and I. We've, however, been out of focus as I left home and my brother reached the age of 17 (and my sister became a teenager).

My father is a reasonable man, supportive to his children, but, he is, as the saying goes, a lamb, rather than a lion. Soft-spoken. He will not and does not keep secrets from his wife, especially concerning their children, and will not go against her in any matter concerning "her babies."

My brother and I rarely talk. Though we're on amicable terms now, he didn't care for me for most of his life. My mom ensured that he got all of the same teachers as me as he went through public school, attempting to "replicate her success." Within the first week of class, every year, every teacher would say to him, upon realizing that we had the same last name "Are you Mray3460's brother? He was so great/smart/interesting/clever/etc.". Mom would always compare him to me, and hold him up to the standard set by me. At one point, she asked him "Why can't you be more like Mray?!" I finally asked her to stop using me to measure him, leading to what I think is the only argument I ever won with her. He's confided in me that he's "sticking it out until (he goes) to college," that he plans to go out of state, and find a job once he's there. "I'm not coming back. Ever."

My sister is the odd-ball out of the children by being a social creature. She was voted the most popular kid in school, is one of the leaders at the youth group at her church, is the president of the local chapter of the National Jr. Honor Society, of the Student Council, and of the school choir, she is also a member of the state choir, and the captain of the school volleyball team, and of the school basketball team. She outpaces me academically, with a 4.0 (All A's) compared to my 3.75 (3 times as many A's as B's) and currently serves as the figurative and literal "shoulder to cry on" for her dozens of friends, church-friends, team-mates, and acquaintances. Mom still compares her to me: "Mray never gave me this much drama." "Why can't you just do what you're told like Mray?" "Why can't you just accept that I know best, like Mray?" "Mray never dragged me all over town for volleyball." "Mray never made me a chauffeur for all his friends." It was these last two complaints that led to my sister and I growing closer, and we eventually got to talking. The rest is history. (In the past month, since I've came out as an atheist, the comparisons have stopped) As the youngest, she'll be the last to leave home, with three years between that and the departure of my brother. She's told me repeatedly that she can't stand the thought of "being alone in the house with Mom."

 

[Hermia]

No Offense meant to you at all. Your mother is absolutely cringe worthy. Her level of evil in my mind,from your description, is on par with that of Professor Umbridge(read:Harry Potter). I wish you and your siblings the best of luck in trying to get out from under that woman's suffocating grasp.

Now on to the advice. If you continue to allow your mother to make these decisions for you, you will become a smothered empty depressed shell of a human being. You must express yourself, you must be yourself, to do otherwise is dangerous. It is similar to bottling up anger and can only lead to trouble in the future, its best to deal with it now, head on. Tell your family about your atheism when you are ready, when you feel it is time then do so, disregard your mother's advice. And if they don't accept you, than they are not worthy of the tittle of family, who are supposed to provide support, in my opinion, and they certainly wouldn't be worthy of the tittle christian, who are supposed to be loving above all else.

 

[dmase]

Its a good thing this is here and not the religion and politics section.

Anyways my best advice is the old smile and wave. Your psyching yourself out by saying you can't play the role, you've been the role for long enough it should come natural. Your also not lying to yourself by doing it, just avoiding drama. Maybe your lying to your extended family but when don't people lie to them. No parent wants the family's dirty laundry to be spread around for there cousins to see, you aren't the only thing they try to hide from them.

And you mention your sister a lot like you wanna tell her. Don't, but also back off the pulpit. Your the most religious one so maybe you've helped her with any religious studies or helping her through life with god well there are real world solutions that you can help her think out. If she asks you why you don't talk about god so much tell her she needs to start thinking through her own problems since she is getting older, except obviously nicer.

Your parents are going to be in your life forever so you might as well respect their wishes and your sister should be allowed to think through religion on her own.

 

[SiskoBlue]

I understand your dilema. I have to say this kind of parenting is insane. I don't mean it's bad I just mean it doesn't work. The more your mother pushes her nose into your sisters business the more resentful and secretive your sister will get. And the more likely she will do the opposite of what her mother wants.

Also the idea of worrying about your kids being "vunerable" to other views about religion is a great argument that these people DON'T have faith. Are they so uncertain that they fear any breeze might knock God over?

Of course there is no god and in a sense all these people are mad, or at the very least, irrational. I'm not trying to be mean but you know yourself, your mother's faith in god isn't going to stop bad things happening, and it certainly isn't going to stop her kids from making their own minds up.

And that's the crux of the issue. Influence. Many religious parents seem to think their children are dumb, thoughtless, impressional balls of clay. They fear the "devil" of the outside world influencing their kids thoughts and turning them away from God. Now the reality is EVERY parent worries about evil influences leading their children to make bad decisions, whether you believe in God or not. The dumbest thing to do is try to block or censor that outside influence. It never works (just look at the movie The Village, it might be crap by the message is true). You cannot control your kids forever. The best thing to do is put your point across and let them decide. It's how you make your case that matters. But I can tell you know most religious people can't really tell you why they believe or what it means. They'll spout some pat answer but it nevers stands up under much scrutiny (I've tried).

But what to do with your sister? You could really drop a bomb. Tell the whole family, tell the extended family, but we know what will happen. You'll get ostracized. Guaranteed. You will be considered a bad influence and painted as the devil incarnate and you won't have any contact with your family for many years, or maybe ever if they never forgive you (despite all the preaching about forgiveness). Then as the years go by, one by one your siblings will go through the same thing and probably run to you for a safe haven.

So I say keep your mouth shut. Think of your siblings. The hard part is making sure they can keep the secret because I guarantee they'll know. But if I was you I'd say "I believe in god, of course I do" and wouldn't feel an ounce of guilt about lying. If a mad man has you captive and tells you to pray to the family cat, then you pray to the family cat. Then once you're sure all the hostages are out then you can safely say what you like to whomever you like.

Nobody likes to lie, well that they shouldn't like it, but in cases like these you're doing it for a nobler cause. To stop your family from imploding, at least for a while. I get the feeling it's inevitable because your mother wants you all to think and act like her and it's just not going to happen is it. So prepare for war and try to keep the peace. Figure out if there's somewhere you can go if they kick you out. How you can keep in touch with your siblings if they try to cut off access. And avoid the topic like the plague. If it comes up either pointedly say you won't discuss it or lie and say you believe.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

 

[artanis_neravar]

So I say keep your mouth shut. Think of your siblings. The hard part is making sure they can keep the secret because I guarantee they'll know. But if I was you I'd say "I believe in god, of course I do" and wouldn't feel an ounce of guilt about lying. If a mad man has you captive and tells you to pray to the family cat, then you pray to the family cat. Then once you're sure all the hostages are out then you can safely say what you like to whomever you like.

Exactly this, play the part of the devout older brother until your sister goes off to college, then you can tell everyone. If you get ostracized by your family, who will your sister go to for advice?

 

[The SettingSun]

Pretty much what other people are saying. To protect your sister keep your mouth shut but also don't lie. I'm not saying tell her but if she asks don't lie. Once your sister is out of the house it sounds like a showdown between you and your mother is in order.

 

[drakythe]

As a devout Christian myself, your mother makes me cringe more than a little. I'm not gonna get into the whole "why are you an atheist" thing as I've had more than a few friends go through their own issues, and to me my relationship with them is more important than any confrontation. I'd rather they still be willing to talk to me than sour any memories we do have together.

I think then, that the general gist of the advice given so far is best for your sister. If you must attend the family gathering, go. Maybe you'll seem a little aloof, but if their anything like my extended family, you can distract them by bringing up someone else and their accomplishments (Cousins, brother, aunt or uncle get a new job? etc).

It is sad to me that you and your mom won't have a good relationship until something is done, but I think now is not the time do to it if she cannot react rationally. Is it possible for you to find somewhere else to live over the summer, so you won't be in the house as much? I think a bit of distance, without 'running away', while still be able to communicate easily might help as well.

You seem like a pretty smart guy, so you probably already know this next part; Learn to grin and bear it, if at all possible. My Mother In Law is a staunch Republican, as are many at my church. I absolutely cannot participate in any political conversation because of this (as I am registered independent) without someone getting bothered. So I smile a lot, and nod when they make points I can acknowledge are points, and don't say anything when they don't (again, using others/extended family members as deflectors).

 

[Matt-Sama]

I'm going through the exact same thing at the moment. My dad is a very religious Christian so strict to the point he doesn't go to the church because he feels like church twists the bible to their own need and so on. He even street preaches.
We have had many discussions on the bible and the christian faith. I am very interested in it but not swayed by it at all.
I do sometimes feel like there is a greater power but humans cannot comprahend it.

I remember he was filling out a government sensus and he asked me what religion I was and when I said other/none he seemed so dissapointed in me.
Glad I live with my girlfriend now.

 

[rutger5000]

Your Sister needs a brother. If your mother won't allow it because your atheist, then you need to bypass her.
I think you know you can't reason with her, especially not when religion is in the picture.
So don't try to talk things out. And don't try to lie your way in again, you own it to yourself not to. I have always played the role of my mothers stuffed animal, the one that could be thrown at her when she had one of her many rants. The one who would always be sweet and loving, no matter how much I hated her at those moments. The thought to return to this role again, makes me want to puke. I feel your in a similair position, you just can't ask yourself to do that.
Thus the only way left is to bypass your mother. If you have any financial means, then buy your sister a cheap cellphone that can be used to keep in touch. Tell her to keep it well hidden, so your mom won't find out. Otherwise buy a mailbox in your parents vilage/town/city, and only tell your sister about it. That way you can still write letters. That might be a cheaper alternative.
So in short, don't try to smooth things over by talking or lieing. But just bypass your mother. Find a way so that your Sister still can have a brother. See desperatly needs one.
If it doesn't work ask your father for help. If he is truly reasonable as you say, then he must help you somehow. He has the obligation to help, your his children for Godssake.
About visiting your extended family, I can only see 2 options. Either prepare yourself for the task ahead and fall back in your old role (my sympathise if you go with that), or play sick or something.

I wish you the best of luck.


Owh and one last thing. Your mother does not have the right to raise their children the way they see fit, just because that is the way they see fit. The USA signed the Convention on the Rights of children. It says among else that children are entitled to their own opinion, and that the parents should listen to it. No-one will care about it, but your mother is breaking a law here. She has undermind your basic right while you were a child and now is doing the same to your sister.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

I was raised by an ex-catholic and an episcopalian, so luckily, I never had this issue.
I'd say sit her down and explain why she's being completely horrible to you two. That sort of treatment is unjustifiable, and you should point out that she needs to respect your decisions as an autonomous being.

 

[BrassButtons]

I think it might be helpful to get a third party involved. If your mom goes to church, and if the priest is a sensible fellow, he might tell her that your atheism should not be seen as a threat and that her actions are not likely to bring you back into the fold.

Family therapy seems like it could also be very helpful. Your family does not sound very healthy, and there's only so much you personally can do about it. The issues seem to be a lot deeper than your mom being upset over your atheism. Obviously this may not be possible, but I strongly recommend it.

If your mom asks you to 'play your old role' and hide your atheism, explain to her that you are not a liar. Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean you don't have moral integrity. She wants you to be a role model? Fine--role models don't pretend to be someone they're not. That said, you might agree to not make a big deal about it. Meaning, if someone asks you a question about your faith you will answer honestly, but you will not go out of your way to tell everyone that you are atheist. But do not agree to lie.

Other than that, my only suggestion is to discuss the matter with your mom, or write a letter explaining your view of things. Make her understand that she is separating you from your sister, and the emotional impact this has. Don't just tell her why you think she's wrong in this, but try to alleviate her concerns as well. You aren't out to 'deconvert' your sister. You aren't trying to teach her bad morals. You aren't trying to change her at all. If your sister's faith has not been affected by knowledge of your atheism, perhaps she could say as much to your mom.

It's a tough situation to be in. I hope you manage to work things out.

 

[370999]

I presume you still live with her? Probably best to bite your tongune. Wait for a while until you are able to leave your family and then do so. Honestly I don't think your mother is really living up to the Christian side of things (ie accepting that people make their own choices and own their own souls, a religious theocracy would be just as wrong as a society which outlawed religion altogether) but you can't really do anything about that.

I would reccomend trying to keep as affable as possible relationship with your mother, you might dislike her but she is still your mom. Same with your extended family, once you are in a position of security (ie living on your own, paying your own bills, etc) then there is nothing wrong with you tellin g ypour parents you won't lie anymore.

 

[TonyVonTonyus]

Do what ever you want or what you think is right. It's not THEIR choice what YOU say.

 

[razelas]

-snip-

I'm openly atheist to my parents, but they're Catholics, so go figure (haha learning your religion? That's sooooooooo Protestant.). However, my father's side is highly religious, especially his uncle.

One thing I've learned when dealing with religious parents and relatives is that they do subscribe to the same line of logic atheists do. You cannot reason with them.

So I'm afraid you're just going to have to deal with the religious intolerance until you're 18 and emancipated. As hard as it may seem, dealing with intolerant parents is hardly the worst. They're raising you in a manner you may think is half-assed and ignorant, the best you can do is take note of how NOT to be a parent.

 

[Cazer]

Look at what your parent or parents are doing, and just think to yourself: Do I want to be like this to MY children when I'm a parent? Otherwise, here's all that I have to say:

Do what you think is right. Others can not change your frame of mind, how you see things, without you yourself agreeing. If your parents try to force christianity on you, then they are not in this for YOUR best interests. If anything it seems as though they're afraid of embarassment. As for you and your sister? If you two have this strong of a bond, she can understand that you are going to make your own decisions. I don't see how your mother thinks that you will change her perception of religion. Good luck.

 

[chuckman1]

No Offense meant to you at all. Your mother is absolutely cringe worthy. Her level of evil in my mind,from your description, is on par with that of Professor Umbridge(read:Harry Potter). I wish you and your siblings the best of luck in trying to get out from under that woman's suffocating grasp.

Now on to the advice. If you continue to allow your mother to make these decisions for you, you will become a smothered empty depressed shell of a human being. You must express yourself, you must be yourself, to do otherwise is dangerous. It is similar to bottling up anger and can only lead to trouble in the future, its best to deal with it now, head on. Tell your family about your atheism when you are ready, when you feel it is time then do so, disregard your mother's advice. And if they don't accept you, than they are not worthy of the tittle of family, who are supposed to provide support, in my opinion, and they certainly wouldn't be worthy of the tittle christian, who are supposed to be loving above all else.

My thoughts exactly this is just another example of unaccepting parents.
Hopefully if you don't hide it like it's something to be ashamed of they can learn one day and if not, you'll be 18 soon.

 

[Zantos]

I'm starting to see why we're not liked, with people that actually are that bad.

As much as I'm a stand up for your beliefs sort of guy, for the family just keep your head down and try to avoid the subject. It's not ideal but I always found it better in the long run.

For her behaviour in general, try talking to her. Don't attack the religion, it will make you sound like an arse and put her in ultra-moral-superiority-not-making-any-sense mode. Focus on her behaviour with you and your sister. If you treat it as a family matter then you might be able to get through to her parent side and maybe you can come to some compromise.

 

[ChuQue37]

/Comment about horrible mother
/Comment about individuality
/Reprimand for not being honest
/Comment about respecting parents wishes

Sweet, got that out of the way, now we get to the fun part! Where I get to tell you what to do and pretend that you're going to listen to me over all these other pillars of wisdom. (Tongue in cheek? Who knows!)

If I were you: My first reaction would be resentment and the idea of revenge, along with the idea that a little bit of chaos and commotion within the family confine might just be exactly what the doctor ordered.

If you were you: Your first reaction would be to get out of this little pickle while still holding on to everyone's respect and support while not compromising your values and not compromising theirs.

If you were the perfect boy everyone wanted you to be: You would come home and renounce your atheism to your mother, saying it was only inspired by a heathenistic girl at college that you've since realized was no good, and done away with.

If I were you: Second inclination would be to come home for the summer and start plotting. Start spreading ideas of dissent within the younger generation (e.g. your sister, cousin, etc) while not confronting the mother directly. Maintaining tactful and reasonable subversion tactics, so as not to do anything that could be logically considered one-sided or prejudiced (read: Faith in Science)

If you were you: Your secondary reaction would be whether or not you want to try and "free" your sister. Should you attempt to share the perspective you've gained on God and his disciples?

If you were the perfect boy everyone wanted you to be: All is fine, except for your lingering doubts. So basically everyone's happy except you.

If I were you: Fan the flames and enjoy the show.

If you were you: During your return, talking to your sister, in the heat of the moment you let something slip about your atheism and it comes back to bite you in the ass. You try to cover yourself, but odds are, your mom catches wind and the fighting starts. Everyone draws sides.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

You see where this is going. I assume you can extrapolate the train of events from there on. Which will you choose? The way I see it, there are only 3 ways it can go.

 

[Acier]

Heyo, fellow survivor of a crazy inept mother here. For the family visit, I personally would try to avoid bringing it up at all. You've only been "out" for a month, I doubt your mother has gotten over the shock. You don't have to lie, but I would avoid it if at all possible. Someone else brought up deflecting conversation, this is a good strategy.

Now I've suffered a pretty awful injury and I can only type with one hand, but I feel for your sister so I'm tediously typing just for her.
Anyways, riding it out is shitty but it is almost inevitable. I had the luxury of being from a broken home (lol irony) so I could get little "breaks" to visit my dad.
I lived with my sister for a bit, and this might be a solution for you and your sister if you live close enough to your school. She can get a job to help out and being poor isn't all that bad. My sister ha a new baby and a dead beat husband and I was too young to work. It's hard but possible. I have no idea the standard of living you're used to (my familiarity with being poor comes from aforementioned mother)
If your mom is really driving your sister that crazy your sis probably wont mind sacrficing certain luxuries to live with you.

on a less extreme note, tell your sis to block your mom on fb and crank up her privacy settings. delete her texts before she gets home from school or right after she reads them. And don't give in to retarded demands like admin control or what she was talking to you about. It will be hard at first but if she keeps refusing your mom will grow tired. and giving her these things just gives her more control. it may take creativity to be crafty but I did it and she can too!

look at this shit. my one wrist is sore now. this better be useful /shakes fist