Audio Logs are terrible.

[skywolfblue]

Treblaine, your critism seems to be more directed at Fontaine's faults rather then those of the audio recording system. I'd agree that Fontaine is kind of a poorly written character.

I think Ryan and Lamb's (from bioshock 2) audio recordings are a much better example of how to do it right. They're public figures with huge egos, they WANT to record all their sayings for posterity, they WANT other people to hear what they're saying.

Gameplay-wise, audio logs have a few advantages:
- they don't interrupt gameplay
- they're optional
- they serve to break-up the fatigue that sets in from slogging through the levels
All while adding necessary exposition or backstory or whatever's in them.

It all comes down to how and when you use them.

This is why I like them. They don't go "STOP! Cinematic time." you can keep blasting away at splicers AND here about rapture's history at the same time.

They also serve as a very compelling "candy" to explorers who want to know more about the lore of the game. This is one thing bioshock does very well. There's side-rooms and hidden tapes to find all over the place. It's not a "point A to point B", it's sprawling tangled levels littered with things to find out.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I just hate logs, diaries and recordings in general. They hamper gameplay, they're usually poorly written, they're generally irrelevant (you'll know when they're not because the text is color-coded in bold print for your comfort) and they feel like a cheap storytelling cop out. Also, they're cryptic enough so that they won't tell you anything (for some reason they're always full of people wondering and hypothesizing and ending in "...", which reminds me of the Monty Pythong scene about the Aaaaargh).

 

[Treblaine]

snip

All right then, let's do this.

I think that (at least a part of) this disconnect you are discussing/criticising stems from the author´s intention of how the audio diaries are supposed to function in his/her story, and what is actually written in the actual finished product.

In Bioshock the inhabitants of Rapture record thoughts where it is fairly obvious that the writers wanted to get the player thinking in certain ways or about certain things, but on the other hand it doesn't make a lot of sense for the citizens of Rapture to record the sort of information they often do. A specific example that come to mind is an audio diary by Sullivan where he "discusses" with himself (there is admittedly a possibility that it was a message for somebody, but it seems unlikely) the bathysphere lockdown and that you need Ryan´s genetic signature in order to use them of your own accord. Thing is, why did Sullivan decide to record this? We can speculate about this, but it seems fairly random of him to do so. Also, what he talks about can be considered classified information, making you wonder why he is recording it on something that would relatively easy for someone to accidentially overhear it.

The problem arises when the writers doesn't quite think through the presentation of the information given out, but then again (mostly) we don't care to look at hard enough at it anyway, which allows them to get away with it.

"Discussion with himself" I think hits the nail on the head... that information Sullivan is trying to get out, it would more naturally come out if it was a recording of dialogue he was having with someone else, another engineer or some sort of inspector.

Developers seems to have missed the real trick with audio recordings, now a written text document must be consciously recorded and it doesn't easily contain the information or information from two different people, hard to interject when one person is holding the pen. But with an audio recording people can be recorded secretly, and not knowing they are being recorded will be much more candid, and two people can easily add information and opinions.

This reminded me of Bioshock 2 (PC version), where you had a library that would play all the different audio logs. It also had a nifty feature in that it would provide a transscript of the audio log you chose to play, thus making relistening to the tape less neccessary if you were just looking for a specific piece of information.

Yes, that is very handy. I don't remember if that was in Bioshock 1 though. And if it was, I'm not sure if you had to have listened to the recordings first.

This I am going to have to ask you to elaborate on a bit, specifically what you mean by "more natural."

I think it's a matter of how you can easily go at a variable pace with writing or typing, easily pausing (without wasting tape) starting again or scratching the last few sentences.

Generally speaking, no they don't (make tape recordings for messages). But that doesn't mean they won't ever do it.

Well it's odd when tapes are so often left around as messages and hardly ever a simple note is found.

Of course, this is assuming that messages left on phone answering machines (and the like) doesn't count. If they do count, well, I'll let that speak for itself.

Phone messages need to be brief. People leave messages only after expecting to have an actual conversations. It's not supposed to be major exposition, just little snippets, a tiny piece of the puzzle to piece together. Like establish two people are in communication, that's it.

it was really awkward in FEAR I fond a blinking phone and got some messages they went on for almost 5 minutes! It's interminable listening to such forced one sided exposition.

 

[Moridinice]

one of the best audio logs i have EVER heard was the snuff one from System shock 2. u know full on guy getting killed and screaming. system shock 2 was as far as i know the first game to properly do audio logs and majority of them was good. sometimes just background chatter complaining about something and ect.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Finally! Someone else feels the same way about this!

Before I first tried Bioshock I kept hearing how the audio logs really help support it's dark and unique atmosphere. When I actually played the game... I hated them. It's not just audio logs either. I just apparently hate when most of the story in a game is told through monologue.

This.

I pretty much ignored the audio logs in Bioshock. Yes, creepy, whatever - I had Splicers to kill.

If I wanted creepy, I'd walk around the area with the manikins. The audio logs were pretty much a waste of time.

 

[Treblaine]

The grenade launcher was easy... it was all easy cuz I think thats the point... its supposed to make you seem like a badass. Its not meant to challenge you, at least thats the impression I get.

I got the impression half the enemies who were supposed to have shown up didn't. I didn't feel like a badass, I felt like I was watching an action movie where someone has cut out half the action.

 

[Treblaine]

Treblaine, your critism seems to be more directed at Fontaine's faults rather then those of the audio recording system. I'd agree that Fontaine is kind of a poorly written character.

But one example, only the most jarring example.

I think Ryan and Lamb's (from bioshock 2) audio recordings are a much better example of how to do it right. They're public figures with huge egos, they WANT to record all their sayings for posterity, they WANT other people to hear what they're saying.

Ryan didn't have any confidants to talk to? This is how Nixon's secrets got out, that's reality's example of revealing taped messages, Nixon recorded his phonecalls and his personal meetings. Ryan could have been interviewed by a journalist of a newspaper he owned, and he'd ramble revealingly and casually remind the journalist to hand those tapes straight to his editor.

Ryan could speak via the TV links or radio, or PA system and you find recordings of them. Not SO OFTEN the "oh so convenient" steam of consciousness style expository audio-diaries.

It's really odd when a little girl start making audio recordings.

Frankly, the "Audio-diary" form of exposition is so cliche and so overused it could really do with totally disappearing for the far forseeable future, and be replaced with almost as easy to do (secret) recordings of dialogue and other dialogue.

 

[lacktheknack]

Interestingly, I recently bought and have been playing System Shock 2.

The audio logs consist of instructions, personal reminders, intimate notes, messages to other crew, and evidence-gathering against other crew. I haven't seen any diary entries, self-congratulations, or completely random logs.

THAT'S how you do audio logs, methinks.

The voicework ain't half bad, either.

 

[Silvanus]

Must say, I love audio logs. I'm a background/lore/backstory fanatic with almost every game I play, and audio logs are quite an enjoyable way to present that kind of information, while keeping it nice and optional too.

Bioshock's the best example of their use. Got a LOT of characterisation across in those 'logs. I felt like I really knew & hated Dr. Suchong in Bioshock 1, and ofc never even met him (he's dead by the time of the game, killed by an enraged Big Daddy).

 

[skywolfblue]

Treblaine, your critism seems to be more directed at Fontaine's faults rather then those of the audio recording system. I'd agree that Fontaine is kind of a poorly written character.

But one example, only the most jarring example.

I think Ryan and Lamb's (from bioshock 2) audio recordings are a much better example of how to do it right. They're public figures with huge egos, they WANT to record all their sayings for posterity, they WANT other people to hear what they're saying.

Ryan didn't have any confidants to talk to? This is how Nixon's secrets got out, that's reality's example of revealing taped messages, Nixon recorded his phonecalls and his personal meetings. Ryan could have been interviewed by a journalist of a newspaper he owned, and he'd ramble revealingly and casually remind the journalist to hand those tapes straight to his editor.

Ryan could speak via the TV links or radio, or PA system and you find recordings of them. Not SO OFTEN the "oh so convenient" steam of consciousness style expository audio-diaries.

It's really odd when a little girl start making audio recordings.

Frankly, the "Audio-diary" form of exposition is so cliche and so overused it could really do with totally disappearing for the far forseeable future, and be replaced with almost as easy to do (secret) recordings of dialogue and other dialogue.

Which makes the more popular person?
One who tells a story to their closest friends...
or one who records his story and publishes it so the whole world can see?

Typically people who are egotistical like Ryan, tend to want the conversation decidedly one-sided in their favor. They'd rather give a solo PSA then have their time wasted with "petty bickering".

A lot of those Diaries were probably broadcast over the PA/TV/radio. And other people recorded them and held on to them.

Not everything needs to be a two way conversation.

 

[Treblaine]

Which makes the more popular person?
One who tells a story to their closest friends...
or one who records his story and publishes it so the whole world can see?

Either option was open for the character of Andrew Ryan. The point it isn't not quite such blatant exposition when he's talking to another person rather than to a tape recorder where the tape could literally be heard by anyone. Can you imagien the uncertainty of that?

Typically people who are egotistical like Ryan, tend to want the conversation decidedly one-sided in their favor. They'd rather give a solo PSA then have their time wasted with "petty concerns".

Not everything needs to be a two way conversation.

Again, egotistical can't explain everything every character does in Bioshock series. It's been used on this thread alone way too much.

It doesn't even have to be a two way conversation, it just shouldn't be another blatant exposition to the player via the tape recorder. Ryan has to have a reason for saying all these things that are on his mind. We know they have to get to the player, but it's just contrived that Ryan just so happens to put them on tape JUST for the tape.

Even the types like Howard Hughes had people they would talk to. Even if they didn't it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have them to, in The Aviatior Di Caprio didn't have to deliver all exposition about his Hughes character as diary entries.

 

[EHKOS]

I have the problem where something starts a fight with me in the middle of one and then I don't pay attention and have to play it again.

 

[Vault101]

they do tend to be a bit "unrealistic" in their handling, for some charachters (like Tannis from BL2) it makes sense....

I like the tomb raider aproach where its written but also voiced..makes alot more sense

 

[MiracleOfSound]

They're a hell of a lot better than text logs.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I really liked Bioshock audio logs. It made the game more atmospheric for me.
But that's because the story in Bioshock is primarily told using audio. Characters contact you on your radio all the time. Because of that audio logs were a perfect fit for Bioshock. They really brought some of it's characters to life. They brought Rapture to life. I don't think Bioshock would have benefited from text logs. Quite the opposite actually.

They're a hell of a lot better than text logs.

It really depends on the game. Sometimes audio feels right, sometimes text feels right. There is no one and only correct answer.

 

[Treblaine]

They're a hell of a lot better than text logs.

Well, in theory maybe.

But in practice you can have the problem of voice acting so boring it's like digitalised chloroform, and you can't skim through or quick read an audio recording. You can't even pause going through it, at best just cancel the playback. And if the prose won't engage you when reading it yourself then it's ALL on the voice actor to do a good job of it, and when you have to record hundreds of hours with many different characters that doesn't tend to deliver the ideal performances.

I guess it CAN be very good... but only if really well put together. Metal Gear Solid nailed it, there was almost always some background music and consistent use of motifs and variations on morifs, so consistently was there some sort of backing score that it actually created tension when for one eerie encounter there was no background music.

 

[dagens24]

I LOVE a good audio log; especially in creepy games.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Meh. The only game where I actually liked audio logs was System Shock 2.

 

[snekadid]

Hey you brought up psychosis for no reason... so you can talk about it but I can't? And you don't really have a basis for claiming EVERYONE was mentally/emotionally incapable of sharing their thoughts or information with each other, which was the basis of why they poured out to... of all things... tape recorders.

J Edgar Hoover had been bugging conversations since before WWII, it was well within Ryan or Fontaine's capabilities in 1960. Those tape-decks were also used by the lowest income workers, I don't think Rapture's economic ideology was the kind of place where all had equal access to the highest technology. It's not such a stretch someone could wear a wire... not as much as them recording their own confessions for no reason.

Please, you are clutching at straws for why Bioshock did it this way and didn't do it the way I suggested.

I think I realized your problem with the logs in the game, you want someone to hold your hand and tell you everything about everything

I have no idea how you could get that from when I say:

"I don't want them to directly tell me what have been going on"

I want more natural back-and-forth discussion which is harder to glean because they are answering each others questions and queries, not just information dumping.

You want a log with fountaine torturing someone while taping it and your complaining about him incriminating himself with a diary entry?

There is a reason for Fontaine to have people tortured, and that the torturer might record the interrogation, and that Fontaine may enter and say something not realising he was also being recorded.

There is no reason Fontaine would just record his deepest darkest secrets on tape.

I have to say I've recorded myself talking for records far more then I have walked into a room, plopped down a recorder and started taping our small talk.

What do you mean "taping out small talk". Only important conversations would be recorded and it's extremely rare for people to record vital details of their lives.

People talk to each other, it's a natural way that their knowledge and opinions can get out of their heads.

I'm not going to argue the reality of an egoist mentality over the internet, I'm just going to leave it at they get caught because they think they're smarter then you and they end up making a mistake because of it.

But you could at least explain why he did the most bonehead thing in the world of recording his plans in the most self-incriminating way?

no reason? Not only logs but human nature from being trapped in a enclosed space for a very long period of time.

Talking about hoover doesn't mean anything since that isn't this world. Bioshock takes place in a alternate history timeline, which is why steam powered turrets and sentry bots are possible.

I refuse to explain Egotism again since you haven't actually read anything placed here. You keep arguing using what you want as if thats a reality for something better, but when I've listed text book examples and actual evidence provided within the game environment you say that "THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN" like that would be a argument, which its not because it happens all the time.

If I'm grasping at straws then you missed entirely since your entire argument is that more conversation would make a game thats supposed to make you feel isolated and nervous would fit better, which is nonsense.

Logs work for Bioshock because of the nature of the story and the intended atmosphere its supposed to foster. They enhance this through not only the content of the log but the absences, people that are themselves alone, in more way than one.

Logs don't work in alot of games, audio logs in less but Bioshock stands as a good example of a way to make them work, and your method would make the game weaker over all.

I'm done with this thread, as I thought this was a discussion thread however you've shown a lack of respect to every post that doesn't agree to your own while replying with the same thing the person was arguing against. Rant threads are so tedious.

 

[Treblaine]

But text diaries are even worse.

Most people can't be bothered reading things for themselves. That's why it's nice having it read to you, with option subtitles you can follow if you need to.

How many people read all the optional text on the various computer terminals in Fallout 3 and New Vegas? Not many I'm guessing.
Most people just look at it and think "TL;DR", and just click through them.

Yeah but the real question is do they not read them because they don't like reading long text (which is perfectly fine), or because simply what is said there is just not engaging enough for them to bother reading.

I mean it's not like screens are hugely impractical to read, or forums like this wouldn't exist. If it's the latter then the problem isn't removed by having it read out, it's still un-engaging but at least they got it over with, probably by mostly busying them self with another in game task while the audio drones on about life in Rapture when things were pretty boring.

What would be considered quite a long audio message is generally quite a short text-document. It may demand undivided attention but as far as info dumps go, I think text has certain advantages. Reading can be an interesting way of getting inside people's heads in ways only the most skilled orators can hope to achieve... the problem is how do you get them to open their minds and read it, not easy, depends on very skilled writing and brutal use of the editor's delete key.

I really liked Bioshock audio logs. It made the game more atmospheric to me.
But that's because the story in Bioshock is primarily told using audio. Characters contact you on your radio all the time. Because of that audio logs were a perfect fit for Bioshock. They really brought some of it's characters to life. They brought Rapture to life. I don't think Bioshock would have benefited from text logs. Quite the opposite actually.

They're a hell of a lot better than text logs.

It really depends on the game. Sometimes audio feels right, sometimes text feels right. There is no one and only correct answer.

Well it's an interesting matter of consistency. Tape recordings and radio messages are almost TOO similar, the sound of the audio even has the exact same artefacts where you'd think a tape recording and radio broadcast should have more distinct filters.

It all does blur together a bit, it's easy to forget what was said to you in a one sided conversation with a mute, and the very similar "audio diary to no one" type recordings.

I suppose Bioshock didn't suit long text documents as in general it wasn't very detail focused. There was no inventory of any sort, no crafting, it seemed to be as stripped down as possible down to leaning a lot on the audio.