IOwnTheSpire said:
Happyninja42 said:
IOwnTheSpire said:
Kyrian007 said:
Xsjadoblayde said:
Whoa, what the hell is this "it's R-rated so it has to mean it's grimdark" assumption? Deadpool was not grimdark, most adult comedies and over the top action films are not grimdark. Why this ridiculous attempt at fanning the internet fanboy flames? And grimdark is a real meaningless term now it is used for anything that isn't all smiles and cuddles. I would recommend not jumping to conclusions from a single rating. Or is this about clicks and comments again?
Yeah it's kind of an assumption... but it's one I understand. This is made by the same Snyder and Co. that "grimdarked-up" Man of Steel with a lot of emo stuff not in other versions of the Superman story.
Now whether that's bad or not... I was in my formative years in the 90's. A bit of grimdark isn't always a bad thing. I wouldn't mind such at all in a Batman film. It just really seemed kind of out of place for Supes.
Here's the thing, though: Man of Steel wasn't grimdark, it was serious. As Xsjadoblayde said, the term is thrown at anything that isn't all bright and happy and whatnot. People use the term so much that it's been diluted of all meaning.
Having something being hopeful doesn't exclude it from being serious. The main issue that most fans have with MoS, isn't that it was "serious", that's perfectly fine. It's that all of the traits about Superman's personality, that make him the icon and paragon he is, were left out, or at least they felt they were misrepresented. Superman Returns, a movie that most people hate, but I enjoyed a lot, was very hopeful and optimistic, but it was also serious. The threats that were happening were treated with true gravity, and lives were at stake. Sure it had some humor to it, and it had playful bits in it, but all of the superman movies did that to some extent. The gripe is that MoS sacrificed the core of Superman in order to have a "serious" premise, when it didn't need to do that at all.
But what are these core traits people keep talking about? If we're talking his desire to help people, MoS certainly has that. Most of the stuff people criticize MoS for (Superman killing, the destructive battles, questioning his purpose in life) have happened before in comics/shows, yet I rarely see those criticized. One could argue the movie could have executed certain concepts better, but I've only heard a few people do that; a lot of what I hear boils down to 'I don't like this interpretation of the character, therefore it's bad,' instead of separating their personal tastes from the quality of the movie itself and judging the movie on its own merits.
Well, I'm not a huge Superman fan, so I can only speculate based on what I have heard from others, but the core traits being
1. Not Killing (this is the most rabidly enforced trait of him that I've seen) Yes, some writers have broken this rule, but from what I gather, this is usually in alternate universe stories, or it turns out to not actually be Superman, or some other some such nonsense to retcon changing the character.
2. Hope. Actually providing hope and optimism for those around him. The trailers for MoS hyped this up a lot, but I think the final product failed to deliver on this element of his nature. I think BvS is going to focus a bit more on this, or at least, the trailers are suggesting it. We'll see if they pull another MoS, and just take lines out of context with the imagery. But yeah, Hope, the capital H kind of hope. The kind where he helps people get off of drugs, and convince criminals to turn themselves in because it's the right thing to do, not just because a god is floating over their head saying do it or I'll punch you really hard. That kind of stuff.
3. Sacrifice, giving of himself for the betterment of others. MoS showed him constantly disregarding the city around him while he was fighting, and literally plowing through buildings, sending people to their deaths from collapsing debris. In most depictions of Supes (at least the ones I've seen, again, not a huge fan of him), he is shown to go out of his way to save the innocent, not put them in peril. Superman Returns has a great scene illustrating this. That big crack opens up in the ocean floor, and he could either go fly to rescue Lois, and stop Luther, or he could go save Metropolis. He goes to save Metropolis. Why? Because he's Superman, and that's what he does. MoS didn't have any of that. The closest it had that I recall, was him defeating the dubstep machine, but again, that didn't really have any level of sacrifice to it. Him putting his personal wants at risk, for the greater good.
Those are the ones I can think of, I'm sure someone more versed in Supes could provide more examples, but those are the ones that I've always considered core traits of him. And I disagree that nobody has ever bothered to illustrate these points, people have argued these very topics on this very site ad naseum ever since that movie came out, and the BvS trailers started popping up.