Bayonetta as a role model

[PeePantz]

1. Bayonetta does not shy away from her sexuality. As we all know, that game is laden with sexual references, innuendo and partial nudity. However, I don't believe that the creators specifically created Bayonetta to be the sexual object that people have claimed. Her sexuality is part of her character, it's not just thrown in as sleazy pleasure on the side. When women were oppressed, their sexuality was something to be seen as shameful. History is littered with evidence of this. Surely, by embracing her sexuality so completely, using her sexuality to create highly powerful, highly charged attacks to despatch her enemies, it's safe to say that Bayonetta is the epitome of the things feminism strives and stands for?

First off, I would like to say you have made great points and I tend to agree with them. This was very well written and very well done.

Females have gained a lot of equality through sexuality but I feel it's time for them to stop (using overt sexuality, not striving for equality). What was an aggressive revolutionary rebuttal to being oppressed is becoming more of a character trait, which is sad. I equate this to the Black Panther movement. The Black Panther movement was very necessary and created a lot of change in America. Unfortunately, this led to a lot of members and sympathizers resorting to a life of crime and has a direct correlation to many all black gangs popping up. This is unfortunate and has led to a shit ton of stereotyping.

For the female equality movement to get big attention, they needed a bang and the oppression of their sexuality was probably the best thing to target. It worked. However, too many have now zeroed in on sexuality and use it solely to achieve equality, even though the initial shock is long over and it only served to "break down the door". There was too little commitment by women to then tackle other and more pressing matters, which I find to be a shame.

 

[Ramin 123]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

touche'. (To OT)You obviously have put thought into thus and come out with a lot of good points/ I STILL think that we need a lead female character that's not sexually attractive..well OVERLY sexually attractive because it almost subconsciously takes away their seriousness as a lead characters (even if that sounds ridiculous).

 

[tlozoot]

I would just like to say, I am by no means a feminist. I don't believe that women should be superior to men, just equal.

Then yeah...you are a feminist. At least that's the definition of feminism that I've come away with from my studies. I do Literature as well =p

I've not played Bayonetta, so I can't really answer most of your points. Although I think some feminists would take issue with Bayonetta's sexualisation. They would argue that, whether the intent was there or not, Bayonetta in the eyes of many is nothing but a sexualised object, and that this overt sexualisation isn?t helping the general objectification of women in society. You can have an attractive character that embraces her sexuality without her necessarily being pandering.

 

[Natdaprat]

If you get Bayonetta as your feminist icon, we demand Duke Nukem as our masculine icon. Perfect role model, amirite?

 

[Colour Scientist]

It seems as though they tried to make a game which would appeal to both men and women. Strong female character, for women, but with an enormous rack, to appeal to the straight, male gamers. She can be interpreted as both a strong female model and a walking sex organ, in my opinion anyway.

the thing about Ashley is that she's strong despite her femininity.
She's trying to be the best soldier there is by following in the footsteps of her father and grandfather and great grandfather.
she wants to ware the heavy armor and carry the big guns
it almost seems like being a boy would have made it easier on her
and when you get down to it she's a bit racist

The problem that kind of character presents is that women have to do what men do in order to be considered strong.

I would just like to say, I am by no means a feminist. I don't believe that women should be superior to men, just equal.

That is feminism though, I don't believe women should shy away from the title just because it's associated with extremists.
Feminism does not equal...

Spoiler

 

[teh_Canape]

There's actually a really good Game Overthinker episode that goes really deep into this idea. It's a good watch.

http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-32-I-Heart-Bayonetta

Waait? Is that movie-Bob?

uh, yes, that's movie-bob

there's also a cool video out there called "Game Overthinker vs Game Underthinker"

which is like, pretty much, a debate between Freud and me =P

it's also an awesome watch, you should look it up on ScrewAttack

Apart from that, there wasn't one shred of normality in the entire game. I love some craziness in a game, but there needs to be atleast 1 square inch of casual common ground for me, to get my bearings.

well, uh, gravity still attracts you to the ground, if that's good enough for ya =P

 

[gibboss28]

I saw Bayonetta as an answer to character design like this:

Spoiler

and over reactions like this:

Spoiler

I saw it as a piss take that was turned up to 11 and was a pretty fun game to boot.

 

[Syn_UK]

You know, I just realize the problem with why it's so hard to create a believable female character in games or even in movies for that matter.

Women are either objectified in games or movies for their looks, used as the emotional support, or hyper-realized into what can be the perfect role-model.

Never are they just written as people with their own traits and problems...lol

There's a reason why a lot of people liked Alyx Vance from HL2, she was ordinary.

I agree. I thought the TGO Episode linked to above was really interesting but I still think there's the problem that almost every supposedly 'strong' female character still has to be overtly sexual, and this includes Bayonetta.

Alyx Vance is not. Rule 34 means that of course people will pleasure themselves to her but her identity and physical being is not wrapped up in her sexuality at all. In fact far from it, any romantic elements of her character are actually emotional; she seems to really care for Gordon rather than want to shag him or pleasure him. On top of this, the way she interacts with the player means that on different occasions you are aiding her (such as when you help the vortigaunts revive her) and she is aiding you (like when she takes over the sniper rifles). In this way she is pretty much equal to you; a feminist's dream, I think.

 

[binvjoh]

There's actually a really good Game Overthinker episode that goes really deep into this idea. It's a good watch.

http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-32-I-Heart-Bayonetta

Waait? Is that movie-Bob?

uh, yes, that's movie-bob

there's also a cool video out there called "Game Overthinker vs Game Underthinker"

which is like, pretty much, a debate between Freud and me =P

it's also an awesome watch, you should look it up on ScrewAttack

Way ahead of ya, already watched a bunch of episodes.

Great series, remind me a lot of Extra Credits.

 

[kouriichi]

I dont think so. Even my mom ((who is a strong, independant woman, and has been for nearly 20 years)) thinks shes just some sleezy videogame chick.

Tifa from FF7 was a better feminist icon the Bayonetta.

Being "comfertable" with your body and sexuality doesnt mean you run around flaunting it.

Being "strong and independant" doesnt mean beating the crap out of everything that walk, talks, or breaths.

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

Oh yes, way more of an icon then Morgan Or Leliana from Dragon age. Both strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty, who dont go around moaning, talking about spanking, putting things in bondage gear and whiping them.

 

[moretimethansense]

I dont think so. Even my mom ((who is a strong, independant woman, and has been for nearly 20 years)) thinks shes just some sleezy videogame chick.

Tifa from FF7 was a better feminist icon the Bayonetta.

Being "comfertable" with your body and sexuality doesnt mean you run around flaunting it.

Being "strong and independant" doesnt mean beating the crap out of everything that walk, talks, or breaths.

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

Oh yes, way more of an icon then Morgan Or Leliana from Dragon age. Both strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty, who dont go around moaning, talking about spanking, putting things in bondage gear and whiping them.

You haven't payed that much attention to the dialogue in DA have you?

At ant rate, why the hell can't a woman be up front and aggressive with her sexuality?
The way many of you that argue against Bay being an example of a feminist role model are making the mistake of thinking that a woman that flaunts her sexuality is deliberately appealing to men, I hope you realise the unfortunate implications of such a belief.

You are implying, however accidentally, that female sexuality only exists for the pleasure of men, and the only positive female role model is one that hides her sexuality.

I'm not saying all female characters should be this way, but why should every female character hide their sexuality?
Are women somehow lessened by being overtly sexual?

I say that any that can only see Bay as a (to quote another poster) "fuck toy" for men are themselves highly sexist, quite probably the same kind of idiot that thinks women should be covered up and protected from the lustful leering eyes of men and that those that dress this way are in some way deserving of the catcalls thrown their way simply because they were proud of their bodies and liked the way they looked in those "slutty" clothes.

By the way, why is it ok for male characters to be domineering, in charge, sexually active, aggressive and/or dress in outfits that accentuate or even show off their bodies?

Why is it that when ever a female character does it she is just there as "fapping materiel" and for that matter why can't a woman IRL dress how she likes without admonishment and claims that "she's just dressing like that to get a reaction from men".

Dear god I hope all that up there made sense, I'm so tired right now I can barely see let alone form a coherent thought.

 

[kouriichi]

Ugh. massive lag. Bad posts. Sorry everyone >.>;

 

[kouriichi]

whoops failed post

 

[kouriichi]

Yes, i did pay attention during my half dozen play throughs.

But see, theres a differance between "overtly sexual" and, "Straight up whore". Shes running around, spreading her legs, in a skin tight cat suit made of her own hair, torturing and dominating demons in a way that makes sadists blush, making sexual noises and suggestive comments.

Female sexuality isnt for mens pleasure. But this "Icon" of female strength WAS purely made for male pleasure.
How about i put it this way? You put a woman in a tight outfit which flaunts her breasts and ass ((which constantly vanishes might i add)) and you call her an "Icon for strong, independant woman right?
Now what if you put a man in a skintight suit, flaunting his testicals ((which will also CONSTANTLY vanish))? What would you call him? An icon for male sexuality and power? No. Youd call him a freak.

There is nothing wrong with sexuality. Infact, i belive humans are a sexual creature, ment to reproduce. But that means in no way, you should run around flaunting it. You should asking if "someone needs a spanking". You definitly shouldent have your clothes "Randomly dissapere".
Look at Morrigan in DOA. Yes. She wears a sexual outfit. Yes, her comments are sexual. But they only become sexual after you START TO ROMANCE her. They arnt unwarrented, nor are they the "Do you want to touch me" type phrases that Bayonetta uses.

And please tell, what male characters are "domineering, in charge, sexually active, aggressive and/or dress in outfits that accentuate or even show off their bodies"? I cant think of a single one! >.>;

 

[Mikeyfell]

it bothers me that the only girls that can acknowledge that attractive women can hold a place as a role model are the ones who would never say they were feminists.

Also, what EXACTLY do you mean by this? Are you saying that "feminists" should be able to view these characters as iconic figures too? Or that "anti-feminists" want to be as separate from the stereotypical feminist as possible?

the first one.
"Feminists" seem to judge based on looks just as often as the men they're complaining about.
only they're doing it in reverse, disregarding the attractive women instead of favoring them

It'd be like a white civil rights activist treating white people worse instead of helping blacks
I hate to generalize it like that but it's just what I've seen

 

[DanDeFool]

I will say this; I haven't played either game, but from what I've seen and read from the games, I'd take Bayonetta as a feminist icon over Samus Aran from Metroid: Other M any day.

Fuck you, Team Ninja. Why don't you quit game design and go make porn for a living instead? At least then I'd be able to respect you.

 

[Mikeyfell]

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

I have a serious question (I'm not trolling)
why does everyone always bring up Valve games when talking about strong female icons
Alyx I get.
but Chell doesn't have any lines of dialog
she doesn't do anything accept escape a crazy science lab

in most other "strong female character" threads Zoe and Rochell from Left 4 Dead come up
WHY?

does the non bombshell body automatically make them a strong character?

 

[Vault101]

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

I have a serious question (I'm not trolling)
why does everyone always bring up Valve games when talking about strong female icons
Alyx I get.
but Chell doesn't have any lines of dialog
she doesn't do anything accept escape a crazy science lab

in most other "strong female character" threads Zoe and Rochell from Left 4 Dead come up
WHY?

does the non bombshell body automatically make them a strong character?

well even though chell dosn't speak if you actually think about "her" escaping the lab it requires intelligence. strength and determination

remember when she was heading towards that inferno? that would have been scary as hell but chell didn't just give up and cry like anyone else...she used her quick thinking and escaped and also used her brains to defeat GLaDOS, that whole situation was terryfiying but she pulled through

though because she dosn't speak to most people she's just a walking camera

 

[MrHero17]

I'm getting a vibe from the people who don't agree with the OP that men finding Bay attractive or wanting to bang her means she can not be a feministic icon and I don't really get that. If I thought Alyx Vance was sexy and I considered her to be eye candy when I played HL2 does that mean that no one could use her as an example of a strong female character? Hell, I've always though Samus was sexy on a number of levels but that never made me think of her as not being a strong woman.

Also, as someone who owns the game it seemed to me like Bay wasn't really flaunting her sexiness it since ignoring the player she's alone whenever she fights. For many an angel the sight of Bay poledancing was the last thing they ever saw. Felt to me like Bay was just really comfortable with who she was and how she looks and I found that refreshing.

No one called Marcus and Dom masturbation fodder for women because you spend the entire game staring at their uncovered, ripped arms.

 

[Mikeyfell]

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

I have a serious question (I'm not trolling)
why does everyone always bring up Valve games when talking about strong female icons
Alyx I get.
but Chell doesn't have any lines of dialog
she doesn't do anything accept escape a crazy science lab

in most other "strong female character" threads Zoe and Rochell from Left 4 Dead come up
WHY?

does the non bombshell body automatically make them a strong character?

well even though chell dosn't speak if you actually think about "her" escaping the lab it requires intelligence. strength and determination

remember when she was heading towards that inferno? that would have been scary as hell but chell didn't just give up and cry like anyone else...she used her quick thinking and escaped and also used her brains to defeat GLaDOS, that whole situation was terryfiying but she pulled through

though because she dosn't speak to most people she's just a walking camera

um.....well, that's not a bad reason.
but wouldn't Chell be just as strong if she looked like this

Spoiler

what ever. Thanks for telling me