Bayonetta as a role model

[Decabo]

In response to Rachel: (For some reason when I hate Quote, it did it oddly, so I'm just doing it this way.)

And you, of course, are free to disagree as well.
Perhaps you and I just take comments differently, but I take a woman calling a man her little Cheshire puss in a suggestive fashion to be rather flirtatious. Maybe that's just me.

Wait, you're saying there's TOO many women with normal proportions? I was under the impression that too many women were given big boobs and perfect butts in video games. Even ones that're considered strong women, like Lara Croft and Samus. (When she's in her Zero Suit) But I find it hard to believe that she was given long legs for any reason other than to look sexy, which isn't a bad thing in itself, but when you're talking about making her a feminist icon, being sexy is on the bottom of the list of attributes they need. Long legs are one of the most important features for models, you can't even become one unless you're around 5'7", or at least that's what my sister was told. But even by those standards Bayonetta's legs are of bizarre proportion, and I have a hard time seeing how that wasn't done to sexualize her.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Joy battle. Man, that final move was really something.

Fatal spanking, besides the first cutscene, is in the game as a punish attack. I encountered it many times, she'd say something sexual like "You've been naughty" and then spank them to death. Here's a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbgTYm_DuM0&feature=related

There's no denying it's feminine, but it's what lips do that made them the selection. It's not something I can see a less sexually charged female using, like Samus. It's not a huge deal, and it's better than the lock-on being, say, a breast, like it is in Saint's Row, but there's no denying the sexuality of puckered lips. In GTA IV, the strip club is represented by lips.

I know it's weird, and it's not really something I understand, but there's much sexuality built around women sucking on lollipops, and I'm sure the developers are aware of this. And the one on GTA IV's cover is the same size as Bayonetta's. Just out of curiosity, I looked for girls sucking lollipops on Youtube, and there was a whole lot of stuff. Now I think they didn't choose something bigger like a banana because they didn't want it to be too blatant, but you'll have to take my word for it that sucking on lollipops is suggestive. I don't really get it, but then again there's a lot of dumb fetishes I don't understand.

I certainly don't think that the oppression of women has completely disappeared, but I guess we hang out with different people, because I don't hear the "She must've had sex with someone to get in that position" stuff, and certainly don't think it, myself. But while things like equal pay for women are things we still need to get, I think the "Well she's not a damsel in distress so she's a good role model" line is losing its effect. I remember Quentin Tarantino used that exact reasoning for why little girls should go see the Kill Bill movies. I think the state we're in now is that while there are still a lot of sexists in the world who unfairly chock up a woman's success to banging someone, we've gotten to the point where just about all women know they can do anything a man can do. (Unless her parents are Mormons or Muslims) There's more women than men in college nowadays, and Hillary Clinton was close to being president. (I guess so was Palin, but I'd rather not mention her) I think another independent heroine isn't really necessary teaching this, especially one like Bayonetta who, despite being an awesome character, isn't really the way I think little girls should act, or teenagers for that matter. I have no problem with sexuality, but when it comes to being a role model or feminist icon, Bayonetta is rather low on my list.

 

[Acting like a FOOL]

I believe in gender equality but I fight some of the tenants of feminism that function on double standards.

we can't meet gender neutrality when all of the social reform works for only one side of the issue.

 

[Moooo4me]

You make good points and I agree with your perspective :] especially the part about one gender not being superior to the other.

and yes she is very sexy XP

 

[Nomanslander]

I don't know, when it comes to role models I'm not keen to kids looking up to the self indulgent vapid types. This and the last generation has had way to many of those already from today's media, both for boys and girls.

Bayonetta was a comical character at best, delving into the fancy of four eyed hot librarian chicks and how they might dress (all leathered and spandex-ed up) and act behind close doors (the notion of them being total freaks, in a good way that is).

Or another words, she's yet again another objectified example of what guys fancy in women. So if you still want to take her as a rolemodel, at least do it in parts.

....

Besides being an objectified example, like I said before, she also reflect the worst qualities in being a role model, and let me explain why:

Growing up myself, most of the supposed role models for me at the time were celebrities in the music and film industry. The music industry at the time was predominately filled with bitter grunge musicians and overly aggressive and misogynistic rap stars. They were the vapid self indulgent types that tried to teach me being an asshole or an angsty prick was cool.

Yes, those were the role models of my Generations, and still till this day I haven't been able to deprogram all the shit they taught me. The shit they taught us.

(Ever notice how most Gen-X tend to be loners, socially inept, bitter, and misogynistic/misandric? Well, our role models at the time are partially to blame.)

The way I see it, a role model needs to show some level of compassion and conviction towards who they are and what they do. Sass and attitude is something to expect from teenagers, but it's the type of stuff you want to grow out of and fast when you reach your 20s.

Bayonetta just doesn't seem to have any other qualities beyond all the sass and attitude that she's been purposely build up with to reach teenagers.

 

[Rachel317]

-snip-

No problem, I got the email with the quotes in it, so I know what you're referring to.

Hmm...you see, you see "Cheshire puss" as flirty, I see it as an affectionate, if not taunting nickname. Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on that one!

No no, I'M not saying there are too many women with natural proportions, the lead designer did. But you look at Samus, Trip (from Enslaved), Lara Croft (minus the large breasts, obviously; they HAVE reduced her breasts for the game coming out this year, which is a good sign!), they're all normal. Obviously, the designer wanted something...very not-normal.

Well...if the leg proportions ARE bizarre, than how could they be sexualized? I'm not disagreeing with you, there wasn't REALLY a need for long legs (unless they just REALLY wanted to go out of their way in creating Bayonetta), but if they're not particularly sexy...?
As per your point about being less sexy, I don't see why a woman who is sexy CAN'T be a role model. Surely we're meant to look past the physical appearance to the character underneath?
I mean...that's like saying that only women who look like Germaine Greer can be role models; she's not particularly attractive, but I find her personality absolutely revolting. She's a supposed feminist yet claims to be an "adulteress". Well...how can you be all for women, if you're willing to hurt them?

Sorry your sister has had problems becoming a model, by the way (from the sounds of it)! If she's really set on modelling, I'd suggest she look into some more non-mainstream agencies, because I find it disgusting that one group of people gets to decide what is "acceptable" and what is not. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Haha, the Joy finishing attack is...bizarre. Hilarious, but bizarre. Although the bouncing breasts are an obvious thing, I love the bored look on Bayonetta's face. Perhaps it's the more subtle things which suggest that she's not necessarily sexually OTT...?

Girls sucking lollipops, I can KIND of see the attraction...although it's a weird one.
Seriously though, the GTA lolly, in my opinion, is quite a bit larger than Bayonetta's; isn't that woman supposed to be one of the strippers/hookers? I agree, the lollipop thing DOES relate to sex and sexuality, but I kind of see it in the opposite way to normal; The large lollies are meant to make a guy feel like a "big man", right? Because she's simulating oral sex with a large object, which is meant to be the penis. The hooker thing is a big part of GTA, so it stands to reason it would be about oral sex. Bayonetta sucks on tiny little things, and because her CHARACTER (not the way she's presented, mind) isn't particularly sexual, I see it more as a "Ha, I laugh at your normal-sized penis! Only a power-drill could satisfy me!" kind of thing. If that makes sense...

Yes, let's not talk about Sarah Palin...that can be left well enough alone!
Bearing in mind, there was a lot of talk about Hillary Clinton and the "OMG!!! First woman president EVER!!!!1111oneoneoneone", as though it was this massive thing. If it ISN'T a big deal, then surely the talk should have been, "Never mind that the two front runners are a woman and a black man, how good are their propositions, and how well will they do in Office?"

Oh, also! That fatal spanking thing is absolutely hilarious. Thanks for the video! I use the other weapons (as opposed to the Scarborough Fairs in the hand) so I hadn't seen those. I also think the Panther Punt and the big spike wheel that she kicks are fantastic Torture Attacks

 

[Eternal_Lament]

Good points. Your argument reminds me of Movie Bob, because he pretty much had all those things to say as well (in case you're curious, his video on this can be found on his Game Overthinker blog). He also touched on a point that I always found to be the case, yet everyone seems to forget. Proportions.

It goes without saying that one of the first things people notice about Bayonetta are her legs, mainly about how long they are. However, if one were to look cqrefully, they'd find that those legs are actually normal. For one thing, if someone were to look at the rest of Bayonetta, they'd notice that she, while indeed fit, is carrying some weight both in her chest and her ass, weight that would require someone to have legs that long in order to support the rest of her body. Also, while her legs would indeed seem freaishly long if she was the normal height for females (5'7-5'10), if one looked at her body (mainly her height) when she is around other enemies or characters, it becomes apparent that she is actually a lot taller than the normal height for females, a height that at that point would also require long legs in order to support herself.

 

[Rachel317]

Good points. Your argument reminds me of Movie Bob, because he pretty much had all those things to say as well (in case you're curious, his video on this can be found on his Game Overthinker blog). He also touched on a point that I always found to be the case, yet everyone seems to forget. Proportions.

It goes without saying that one of the first things people notice about Bayonetta are her legs, mainly about how long they are. However, if one were to look cqrefully, they'd find that those legs are actually normal. For one thing, if someone were to look at the rest of Bayonetta, they'd notice that she, while indeed fit, is carrying some weight both in her chest and her ass, weight that would require someone to have legs that long in order to support the rest of her body. Also, while her legs would indeed seem freaishly long if she was the normal height for females (5'7-5'10), if one looked at her body (mainly her height) when she is around other enemies or characters, it becomes apparent that she is actually a lot taller than the normal height for females, a height that at that point would also require long legs in order to support herself.

Actually, I saw the video AFTER posting this...proves I didn't just regurgitate someone else's opinion, I suppose.

But this is what I've been saying! Thank you for articulating it so well. The game is set in a time/universe where Bayonetta's proportions are normal. Jeanne, Rodin, Luka, even the Angels, have her dimensions. Balder is taller than Bay, but no one seems to be upset that a man is being depicted as "not normal".
If Bay was a male character, people would just let it go because we're so used to seeing these idealised images of males, but a woman can't be tinkered with? Yes, Bayonetta is hot, but does that necessarily mean that she's ALL about fan-service?

I might be over-simplifying things here, but surely you have to be pretty desperate to get any real gratification from the game? I mean, the camera's on her for two seconds during the Climax Attacks, you see butt twice, she's covered up for the most part...

Of course, this is coming from a female perspective, so I don't really get the whole fan-service thing and its appeal.

 

[Undeadpool]

writers are afraid if they have a female character show any weakness ever, they'll be labelled as sexist.

Excellent point! Why should character flaws be seen as sexism? Women have weaknesses that men don't have, men have weaknesses that women don't have. These shouldn't be shied away from, but embraced.

It's sadly because there will always be some overly sensitive type (often "White Knight-males" even) who will try to call them sexist because their female characters aren't some Mary-Sue invincible superhero. And sadly some writers take that to heart and become so afraid of the criticism itself that they stop being creative.

 

[Rachel317]

It's sadly because there will always be some overly sensitive type (often "White Knight-males" even) who will try to call them sexist because their female characters aren't some Mary-Sue invincible superhero. And sadly some writers take that to heart and become so afraid of the criticism itself that they stop being creative.

Ah yes, the people who get offended on behalf of other people, even if the group in question isn't all that put out by it. I get sick of seeing Ice Queens and Damsels in distress, not because I find those portrayals offensive, but because they're now so overdone that it's becoming boring.
If we're talking purely about characters, I thought Trip from Enslaved was an excellent portrayal. She enslaves Monkey, this big, strong dude, to get her home as she acknowledges that she can't do it on her own. But she brings computer skills to the table (yeah, nerdy, hot cliche, I know). I wish more developers would acknowlege that it's OK to portray weaknesses as well as strength. Real people aren't as simple as "strong" and " not strong", so why must characters be?

Bayonetta is a great character because, although she's fan service on the surface, she can kick serious arse (thanks, of course, to her deal with the Devil above all else) and is emotionally strong, yet also shows real vulnerability when it comes to Luka and Cereza.

You raise an excellent point though. Exactly who IS offended by this kind of portrayal, and why is she seen as offensive towards women when, instead, we could all just not give a damn?

 

[John Stalvern]

And I personally loved the game, between Bayonetta's character, the awesome fighting, and the awesome scenery.

It IS an excellent game. Shame about the cut scenes...I liked the film slides for the flashbacks, but it wasn't so good during the present day. Financial issues?

I agree with you on your point about the sexualisation. She's not meant to be a whore or a young boy's wet dream (well...ok, maybe she is ;D), but if she can appeal to women to, then she can't be THAT skanky. There are women (such as myself) who are openly sexual like Bay. Admittedly, I'm nowhere near as flirtatious, but I believe sex should be openly discussed. Not necessarily peoples' personal sex lives, but far more openly than the taboo it currently is.

EDIT: I am able to relate to Bayonetta much more than Lara Croft and the likes. if I can, then there will be other women out there who can kind of see themselves in Bay too.

I'm enjoying this thread so far, and am glad that someone shares the view I gained after playing the game.

 

[Rachel317]

I'm enjoying this thread so far, and am glad that someone shares the view I gained after playing the game.

Hey, thank you! It got kinda rough in the middle, there, but it's a lot more civil now!

I'm very happy that you share this view of Bayonetta as a character! I get why people wouldn't understand it (it's quite easy to see why, I suppose), but it's always nice to meet a kindred spirit. Sexuality doesn't need to be taboo, nor gratuitously shouted about, it just exists and I believe we should acknowledge this fact, without it being a case of pandering.

Thank you for sharing your positive opinion of Bayonetta.

 

[Legion IV]

Ok i immedality want to laugh and flame you but let me read your op firs and try to be reasonable.

Your right if she wasint presented the way she was and dressed the way she was and was doing somthing sexual at every given moment. Shed be a very intresting character. That said she does all those things. I couldnt finish the game even though i payed 60$ i felt embarssed playing such a over sexualized game. It feels like its a game you ask for and they have it covered behind a black sheet or somthing. Like i think the simple act of walking and shotting is sexualized lemme check (watches a youtube vido called "Bayonetta ass 2" Oh lord i cant discuss this chracter reasonably.

Everything this character does is either doing overly exual posing or shaking her ass somehow. Am glad i took this game back it was a sore thumb the games just ludacris. (going into angrey rant mode) I find it hilarious how the lead desighner was mad about the doujinshi. Yet in AN INTERVEIW!! you gloated about how long it took you to perfect her ass. Good lord this game is stupid! stupid! (melts down)

I'd really like somone to prove me wrong. As a i use to love Hideki Kamiya since am the worlds biggest fan of devil may cry. Just suprised the dude went this far....