BBC Debate: Games Aren't Art ... Yet

[UnderCoverGuest]

Hm, I agree. Games aren't art, but they are entertainment. After all, games are meant to entertain.

After all, I don't have a Scrabble board hung up on my wall with little decorations here and there--nor would I consider taking a game like Modern Warfare 2 and putting it anywhere I could visually see it.

As for games like Heavy Rain and stuff that are considered to be story heavy or whatnot, I'd go so far as to consider them "artistic", but I reserve the classification of 'art' for things that are meant to actually be art.

Video games are meant to be entertaining money-absorbing schemes these days, not art. If you want art, get The Flowers of Robert Mapplethorpe on CD-I.

 

[Neonit]

the question is, do we - as gamers want games to be considered art? i mean, somebody smearing peanut butter on a floor is considered art. i dont want my favorite hobby to be compared to that....

besides, art was meant to entertain people. games entertain people. what is the discussion about?

 

[ProjectTrinity]

Has EVERYONE forgotten Shadow of the Colossus? >_<

For the sake of a lasting debate - people *have* to forget the game, or else BBC's debate is over. Though I do agree, 99.999% of games do not reach an artistic level.

 

[Ihniwid]

I agree with most of what the BBC special went on about.

We're getting there and I'm sure one day there'll be classes in "Video Game Studies" at fancy universities, in the same building as "Advanced Studies in Milton". Art takes time guys. Better yet, scholarship takes time and its relationship with a medium.

I love how we all play games and enjoy them but how many of us have read an academic study on games? Yeah. The crowd just got a lot thinner. Why are we so focused on calling games art? What does that help? Is it to validate your spending time with the medium? Is it to prove something over just the enjoyment you have? Is calling a game art make you a better player? Can you then stand beside a Shakespeare student and say you're just as good as him?

Who cares?

I just don't see why there is such a rush to call games art. Maybe I'm a cynic. Or maybe the advocates on this subject have never had to sit down and compare a great game to a great film or great book or great painting. Games don't hold up yet folks. Sorry.

 

[joshperry94]

Art can be perceived by anybody as what they think it is... In other words there is no right or wrong answer to the question "what is art?".

 

[Ihniwid]

Art can be perceived by anybody as what they think it is... In other words there is no right or wrong answer to the question "what is art?".

While this is a cute thing to say, there are in fact ways to govern what is and is not art. You may not agree with the theories and you may have your own but just saying there is no argument here is redundant. Because in fact there is an argument and there is always an argument when new mediums or facets of mediums pop up.

So I disagree with you... is what I'm getting at.

 

[Shadeovblack]

The fact that we are debating if games are art, makes games art.

 

[Ihniwid]

The fact that we are debating if games are art, makes games art.

It makes it a possibility.

Just because you debate whether McDonalds is classified as real food or not doesn't make it make it so ipso facto. It makes it possible.

 

[cocoadog]

Plenty of games out there that can make you think. Interactivity is a plus, too fuck reading.

 

[Baldr]

Let me just clarify something. When these people say "art" they mean "high culture". These elitist who think they know something about high culture, often mistake the word art as high culture for their ignorance.

In the traditional sense of the word all video games are art, but are video games part of high culture? Are video games be broken down and studied in academia?(not including game career classes) Yes, but by a still very small group at not many established Universities. Video games are still on the line of High Culture and will be for some time. Mostly because they are a newer medium.

 

[Alphavillain]

I don't consider games art. Games to me are more fashion than art. I love playing games, talking about games and going on the internet to watch videos avout games and reading about them -but I also love nice clothes. And to me the intensification of games releases makes gaming more than ever a phenomenon of ever-decreasing cycles of anticipation and then moving on to the next game for many gamers.

 

[Sean Deli]

The correct question was asked when this discussion first popped up on escapist:
"What happens if we win this debate? What happens if we convince this guy that games indeed are art - will he drop any good loot?"

A generation is being raised on games right now. Same, how several previous generations very primarily raised on films and radio, and multiple generations before that were raised on books and theatre.

Previously parents told their kids "You must see this film - it's a classic", or "You must read this book". In 5-10 years they'll be saying "You got to play this game, it will teach you a lot"

It happens even now, whether the self-appointed conoisseurs of high-culture call games an art or not.

 

[dessertmonkeyjk]

"If video games are art then you HAVE TO ASK QUESTIONS like what you're doing this and this for and for what purpose." That's the statement that I can gather... free will and reflection on said actions of such is what he appears to addressing. All he's looking for is having this question provoked enough times.

The problem with that is that you willingly LOOK for it or you don't. Art can mean different things to different people which can include importance of, say, an item or an important figure. How you see them depends on your morale understanding and knowledge of said object, place, or thing. You can just bypass it altogether and say "This doesn't need consideration" or you can spend time looking at what benefits an action may have. There's... ah geez.

This is an interactive medium you're analyzing here buddy. You can ask questions about things and then you make your choice about it similar to doing so in real life.

 

[The_ModeRazor]

But if the community that produces video games, and the community that they are produced for (which I guess are probably fairly mixed with each otehr) grovel at the media's feet like good little sycophants and act like they really want to prove themselves, games might just be accepted as a proper art form and we can all rejoice! The appreciation will be the kind that is given to a physically debilitated child trying his best to be as good as his peers (which is obviously impossible), but it's totally worth it!

Well, techincally I can't know how much people actually care about this... issue. Personally I feel that "not giving a single perfunctory fuck" is the right approach. Might be wrong. Have a tendency to be that.

EDIT: Oh, just thought of something. Probably been mentioned before. Well, introspection into the nature of your own work, "deconstruction", and examining the tools of the trade, like the way we perceive fiction and stuff like that, could generally be considered art, right? When a videogame has great writing or you can create different sorts of art within it, that isn't really the art "genre" of a videogame. That would be the gameplay itself, the conventions we are used to when handling vidyagames. Just where am I going with this? Towards Bioshock. It deconstructs the very nature of the Gamer following the objectives, which is kind of an obvious part of gameplay in games, being the way to progress. It also questions the "freedom" given to you by the interactive nature of... videogames. I keep using that word. Ah well.

This same following of objectives is also the point of The Stanley Parable, a source engine mod. You should probably check it out. If nothing else, look up a walkthrough on Youtube, it isn't a very long game. But it does kinda the same thing as Bioshock. It also takes a look at narrators, particularly the interactive ones. Just much more condensed and... words. Can't find them. Fuck my limited vocabulary.

You get the idea. And now I just gone against my first post. Being a hypocrite is good!

 

[raankh]

BBC Debate: Games Aren't Art ... Yet

Ekow Eshun, former director of the UK's Institute of Contemporary Arts, doesn't think games are art right now but he sees their potential.
[snip]
"Lots of books, lots of TV shows, lots of films aren't art. That doesn't make them bad, it makes them really enjoyable."

"Most of the things we like, enjoy and admire are really good but whether they're at the precise high level where we say this changes how I see the world in a significant and deep way[...]"

"I'd suggest that the things we really consider art are the things that allow us to ask profound questions about who we are, how we live and the state of the world around us. I think most games don't get to that place, and it's important to set that bar quite high."
[snip]

Source: Eurogamer [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-01-bbc-debate-games-arent-art-yet-but-thats-okay-article]


Permalink

Those are ridiculous statements. He's disqualilfying instrumental music as an art-form. Instrumental music is abstract to the point of being near-spiritual experiences, but it certainly does not fulfill those criteria. Does Tchaikovsky facilitate questions about who we are? If we are reaching that far, then absolutely games can easily be classified as art too. Certainly a game like Perimiter facilitate questions about who we are and the likes, if a classical symphony does.

BZZZZZZZZ, try again.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

I still fail to see why games can't be art, but Fountain can

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

This is all rubbish. All entertainment is art

that's bull, entertainment IS art

False. Entertainment is entertainment. Art is something that has meaning.

For example, pornography is not art. I am incredibly entertained by pornography. Especially if it focuses on hot red head and Asian women. However, while very entertaining, it is not art.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

the question is, do we - as gamers want games to be considered art? i mean, somebody smearing peanut butter on a floor is considered art. i dont want my favorite hobby to be compared to that....

Exactly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileuchamp_Fountaine.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emin-My-Bed.jpg

The very concept of art is nonsense nowadays. Art used to just be something aesthetically pleasing. I would consider good architecture or landscaping better art than the crap in art galleries these days. The whole idea that "Art" must be thought provoking or must have some sort of message is a bunch of crap. If the aesthetic form of the thing brings out emotions in the observer then it's art. The emotions don't have to be complex or life changing.

There is only one way to get a message out: cold rational argumentation. Everything else is propaganda and sophistry.

 

[Svenparty]

As mentioned I think there are sections of games(Usually the parts people remember) that are Art. But as a whole it's not as developed as other arts yet.

This whole debate also brings the question of "What is Art" into debate...

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

BBC Debate: Games Aren't Art ... Yet

Ekow Eshun, former director of the UK's Institute of Contemporary Arts, doesn't think games are art right now but he sees their potential.
[snip]
"Lots of books, lots of TV shows, lots of films aren't art. That doesn't make them bad, it makes them really enjoyable."

"Most of the things we like, enjoy and admire are really good but whether they're at the precise high level where we say this changes how I see the world in a significant and deep way[...]"

"I'd suggest that the things we really consider art are the things that allow us to ask profound questions about who we are, how we live and the state of the world around us. I think most games don't get to that place, and it's important to set that bar quite high."
[snip]

Source: Eurogamer [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-01-bbc-debate-games-arent-art-yet-but-thats-okay-article]


Permalink

Those are ridiculous statements. He's disqualilfying instrumental music as an art-form. Instrumental music is abstract to the point of being near-spiritual experiences, but it certainly does not fulfill those criteria. Does Tchaikovsky facilitate questions about who we are? If we are reaching that far, then absolutely games can easily be classified as art too. Certainly a game like Perimiter facilitate questions about who we are and the likes, if a classical symphony does.

BZZZZZZZZ, try again.

Agreed. As I've said before, if something brings out emotions in the observer through it's aesthetic form: whether they be brush strokes or musical notes, it is art. The emotions don't have to be life changing, they could be as simple as an experience of beauty or longing or sadness or happiness. These art pedants are completely full of crap.