Behind the Grind

Dhatz

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"insultingly simple" about covers all problems with mmo gameplay. I have to hate the DC universe online for only having batmobile for Batman and no other vehicles for anyone. it kinda gives away the fact of the gameplay itself being the filler. The Who do you trust CGI trailer is the best thing you'll ever want to experience from this game. And it is the outintro in case neither side wins the game. The game footage itself just feels more letdown than Letdown 2(crackdown 2), many (if not all) agree on that.
Flying-Emu said:
The problem with innovative combat is that, whenever a dev comes up with a good idea, they fail to execute it well. APB, for example, was an awesome idea. Horrifically eexecuted.
that is problem with all innovations. look at Assassins Crees 2 and the controls, it's complete opposite pole of other games trying to innovate. Having multiple uses per button is the philoshophy I had since before I saw it in games.

I feel the need for replayability in online levelup games topic for next time. Go play alien swarm(which is free game on steam) and you will see some people going 4th playthrough(=3rd promotion).
 

Errickfoxy

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I made a similar observation not long ago when I was loading up my save for Monster Hunter Tri, to see I had 180 hours on it, and still hadn't hit high rank quests (though was about to knock out the last bit of offline content). And yet it never feels like grinding to me, despite having killed about 50 Great Jaggis and who knows how many of everything else.

What is it about that game that, even though I'm doing the same missions over and over, it never really feels like I'm grinding? Is it the carves and rewards after each quest? You're always getting more materials to make new stuff. Or maybe hitting higher hunter Ranks, or perhaps getting those nice silver and gold crowns for fighting especially large (or small!) monsters.
 

Lorechaser

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Errickfoxy: See, to me, all the Monster Hunters are the very definition of annoying grind. I have tried over and over to play them, and just never enjoy it.

Shamus: [insert obligatory EVE sandbox player-generated content is the bestestest evar type comment].

But in this case, I kinda agree with the EVE fanatics - sometimes just giving people free reign can result in a lot of emergent gameplay. Sometimes it just results in boring suck without even a grind to rely on.
 

Nuke_em_05

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Psydney said:
Nuke_em_05 said:
Crunchy English said:
This is about to make me sound like an old man shaking his fist at the kids on his lawn, but how can ANY virtual RPG expect to compete with tabletop?
I'm not saying you're wrong on any points; but I think the appeal is in the visuals. Tabletop, you might have little plastic or die-cast metal figurines that you paint by hand, but that's about it. The rest, you imagine.
If the Microsoft Surface/Surfacescapes project ever came together in some affordable fashion tabletop games might enjoy some of that visual appeal, although figuring out where to put the snacks could induce a crisis...
Well, then is Surface still tabletop or now virtual? Or a mix of both? And who says once it moves to Surface they won't have it take care of the calculations for you? We could have visuals on a computer screen right now with the rest still done on pad, much like scene it games where the mechanics are still outside, but visuals on the TV.

As for playing with your friends online, I think the idea is you can still go adventuring with your friends on other continents, or on the couch next to you. Regardless, it generates visuals for you, rather than having to imagine it all, which some people like. If it is just an expensive chat client to you (not a direct assumption, just a hypothetical extreme), that's simply how you choose to play. Yes, your adventures are pre-defined to a point, but there can still be challenge. As you said, raiding is one such challenge, heroic dungeons, regular dungeons, and even world bosses; or non-battle related achievements (official or not). So I think it comes down to tabletop vs virtual (though in the strictest of definitions, tabletop is still virtual, LARP-ing would probably come closest to non-"virtual", I digress), it is just a matter of preference.
 

V8 Ninja

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I ran into the exact same problem you're describing with Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. At first the game was fun because it was new and everything you did had a reward, but later on everything was pointless. I had gotten the best weapons I could currently buy, I was sitting on a boat-load of money, and it took nearly 5 hours of straight-up combat to even get close to leveling up my character.
 

Silver

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I don't play MMO's. I should start out with that, but I still play a lot of games with lots of grinding in them.

To me, grinding is when a single mechanic comes in the way of advancing, wether it's crafting, or combat, or whatever. A game should allow you the freedom to keep going with the story, or the interesting bits, or whatever, without forcing an arbitrary barrier on you to extend playing time or whatever. I'll use Bioware games (since they're all pretty much identical, in structure) and the old goldie freelancer as examples here.

In Freelancer (and almost sequel Darkstar One), you can have lots of fun just flying around, doing missions, killing people, getting money, buying new stuff. Or just explore new systems, or trade. It might be grinding, but it's still fun, because it's voluntary. On the other hand, between story missions you're FORCED into doing it. You must reach a certain wealth for the story to advance. That's where it turns into grinding for real, because it's not your choice anymore, and you can't skip it (without cheating, I guess).

Some games allows skipping dialogue, and story parts. Neverwinter nights, for example, allows you to choose which chapter you want to start in. Many games allow you to skip cutscenes, or already played levels. I don't think I've ever seen a game that allows you to skip combat you're already done with. Many story-based games, like all of Bioware's games have too much combat. It might be a matter of opinion, in some cases, but the combat will almost always turn stale in the first playthrough, whatever tactics there are get dull, there are too many battles to keep the concentration up all the way through, and you just can't be bothered going through with it all, every time. On a second playthrough it's even worse.

The interesting parts, the parts that change, are how you deal with conversations, how you choose to conduct yourself, and how you choose to build your characters. The changes are intersting in a few fights, but after the 250:th encounter you've seen it all, and even if one of those were really special, like a fight against a big dragon, or boss might have been cooler, it doesn't stick out, it just blends with the rest.

The grinding part there is also involuntary, and present inside the story quests.

What I'd like to see is a button to skip the annoying, endless, identical fights instead of the conversation that I can influence the end outcome of.

Or, if I'm daydreaming, see an rpg (which are most guilty of the grinding stuff) turn every combat situation into something interesting. Spread them out more, work more on atmosphere, and make every battle count, every battle be an experience to remember. Make them unique, with the environment mattering a lot more, give each battle it's own distinct feel. Here a lesson can really be learned from movies. After watching a movie (well, most movies, that are at least decent), something can be said about every action scene, every battle. They have their own individual flair. They weren't all the same, over and over.

Cut out as much of the filler as possible from the quests, and make it voluntary outside of them. There are often some battles that attempt to be that way, boss fights, first encounter with a new enemy type, a scripted ambush, whatever, but in all the mud from the ton of other battles, they drown.

Grinding is when something becomes a chore, becomes work, instead of being fun.
 

oranger

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Yeah, its called "randomly generated content" IE roguelike games.

One day, an AI will extrapolate IP based on previous IP, as mentioned in star ocean: till the end of time. (ever notice how sci-fi writers always invent things first?)
 

matrix3509

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Unfortunately, I don't expect combat in The Old Republic to be anything more than just a massive grind quest (for the Jedi class at least). I just don't see any way they could implement Force powers and not have you just standing still and babysitting cooldowns until the mob falls over.

We shall see though.
 

nadesico33

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Mar 10, 2010
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MMOs aren't the only realm of grinding though. Some competitive shooters get that way, namely, in my opinion, Bioshock 2 multiplayer (though Transformers multiplayer is starting to feel that way to me). Sure, no match is entirely the same, but some point the amount of XP to get from level to level is too great, and those dangling carrots are not enough to keep you going when everyone uses the same handful of weapons and tactics gained/earned in those first few XP levels.
 

Psydney

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Psydney" post="6.221460.7452984 said:
I'm not saying you're wrong on any points; but I think the appeal is in the visuals. Tabletop, you might have little plastic or die-cast metal figurines that you paint by hand, but that's about it. The rest, you imagine.

Well, then is Surface still tabletop or now virtual? Or a mix of both? And who says once it moves to Surface they won't have it take care of the calculations for you? We could have visuals on a computer screen right now with the rest still done on pad, much like scene it games where the mechanics are still outside, but visuals on the TV.

As for playing with your friends online, I think the idea is you can still go adventuring with your friends on other continents, or on the couch next to you.

I definitely agree with you re: online play - I guess my point was that the Surface could add an eye-candy dimension that is perhaps currently lacking with figurines. And from what I've seen of the demos they are moving toward making some of the tabletop calculations - although anyone I've known who plays tabletop *hates* the virtual die rolls and wants to do that themselves with their own dice :)
 

Nibelung2

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Just being a little fanboyish, but DDO have an awesome combat system that isn't "stand still and press 1 to 5"

Ironicaly, while WoW is this on leveling and the endgame is a bit more action-related; DDO is agile, and the endgame is "stand still and smack everything as hard as you can". But it deserve a note anyway.
 

samwise970

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Shamus, I love your article, and I read your blog from time to time as well, so this is coming from a loving place.

No one who doesn't have at least one level 80 character should review WoW. You really haven't played the game yet. Not to mention that with your highest level character at level 40, you haven't played ANY content that was made after 2004. It's not fair to Blizzard to only play a third of the game (actually far less, just a third of the leveling) and dismiss it all as a grind.

Play through the expansions and then the end game content before judging it. WoW is far more than pressing five buttons.
 

Shamus Young

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samwise970 said:
It's not fair to Blizzard to only play a third of the game (actually far less, just a third of the leveling) and dismiss it all as a grind.

Play through the expansions and then the end game content before judging it. WoW is far more than pressing five buttons.
Then it's not fair that they charge me $15 a month for three months before I get to those "fun" parts.

I mean, if it sucks, and you have to do it to get to the good parts, then it SHOULD get mentioned. It's part of the game. Time-wise, it's a big part of the game.
 

EvilDemon

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Here read this, http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/behavioral_game_design.php?page=1

its not that blizzard dont have the money to fill the time in between rewards, rather its how the game was designed
 

VondeVon

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This was focused on MMOs but it made me think on the grinding games I play - Final Fantasy in particular but even games like Assassin's Creed (The races, feather/flag-finding, rescues, treasures etc) can get very aggravating in the second or third play-through. The first time around the grinding has purpose - whether a tangible increase in levels or an intangible increase in the efficiency of the player. It can also make the game feel deeper because there are so many things you can do. But once you've finished it 100% and just want to play again to get the highlights... Grinding becomes a chore and worse - a chore you've done before.

Chrono Cross had the right idea. It let you play New Game +, with all of your strength and items remaining from your previous play-through. It enabled you to breeze through the mini battles and just enjoy the revisit.

For MMOs, one thing I know I would love to be able to do is pimp out my nest - let my grinding also supply ingredients that can be used to furnish my home! I can chop trees for wood and then go kill an monster whose skin I think would look nice as upholstry. Both get me XP and maybe tradable items, but I get something lasting out of it too. Not a weapon I wont use because I already have a box full. Not potions that aren't needed because my healing magics are freakin' awesome. Just... stuff.

I'm from the stuff generation. I like stuff. Having somewhere in-world where I can store, display (for at least myself and friends), and re-arrange it is enough to keep me hooked.

Oh, and I'm not talking achievements or trophies that people collect but nobody really cares about - I want my avatar to be able to see and touch and interact with it. Give me some land and let me build my own house - not Sims-Level detail, just the shape and set-up of rooms. And maybe a garden. And a spot where I can put a fountain. And a surfboard. And an outdoor fridge for when I can't be stuffed going inside....
 

Crystalgate

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2) Make the combat more satisfying. I don't think anyone has really nailed this just yet, and since most games are intent on replicating the Everquest / World of Warcraft gameplay, I don't think that we can hope for this to change anytime soon. This requires innovation, and innovation means risk. The last few games to try and re-invent this particular wheel (Champions Online, APB, Age of Conan) have not been particularly successful, which means publishers are going to be even less inclined to throw money at this in the future.
I think a problem with that is that in order to make combat more satisfying, they have to allow for player strategy to make a large difference. This means that some or all encounters can become much easier than intended if the player uses a strategy that's good enough. What we have then are scenarios where players can take on enemies that should be way out of their league. However, MMO developers seem to fear that kind of scenario and are instead bottlenecking strategy.
 

oranger

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VondeVon said:
This was focused on MMOs but it made me think on the grinding games I play - Final Fantasy in particular but even games like Assassin's Creed (The races, feather/flag-finding, rescues, treasures etc) can get very aggravating in the second or third play-through. The first time around the grinding has purpose - whether a tangible increase in levels or an intangible increase in the efficiency of the player. It can also make the game feel deeper because there are so many things you can do. But once you've finished it 100% and just want to play again to get the highlights... Grinding becomes a chore and worse - a chore you've done before.

Chrono Cross had the right idea. It let you play New Game +, with all of your strength and items remaining from your previous play-through. It enabled you to breeze through the mini battles and just enjoy the revisit.

For MMOs, one thing I know I would love to be able to do is pimp out my nest - let my grinding also supply ingredients that can be used to furnish my home! I can chop trees for wood and then go kill an monster whose skin I think would look nice as upholstry. Both get me XP and maybe tradable items, but I get something lasting out of it too. Not a weapon I wont use because I already have a box full. Not potions that aren't needed because my healing magics are freakin' awesome. Just... stuff.

I'm from the stuff generation. I like stuff. Having somewhere in-world where I can store, display (for at least myself and friends), and re-arrange it is enough to keep me hooked.

Oh, and I'm not talking achievements or trophies that people collect but nobody really cares about - I want my avatar to be able to see and touch and interact with it. Give me some land and let me build my own house - not Sims-Level detail, just the shape and set-up of rooms. And maybe a garden. And a spot where I can put a fountain. And a surfboard. And an outdoor fridge for when I can't be stuffed going inside....
I think the old ultima online did this, with players being able to buy land and build houses (and subsequently be robbed lol)
 

w00tage

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The only MMOs I've ever played that had actual fun, challenging gameplay were Planetside and City of Heroes / Villains. In Planetside, the whole game was PvP with guns, so it was always different and exciting no matter what you were doing.
But in CoX, you had to make it interesting by moving around voluntarily - as a tank char, you did the standy-still thing, but as any other char, you could effectively play mobile, running and zotting, at least while your endurance held out.
 

RobfromtheGulag

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Pretty much just stating the facts, but I enjoyed the article Shamus.

It's always interesting when a game makes an honest attempt to spice up the combat, but 9 times out of 10 it just becomes a side-note and everyone forgets about it. I've picked up The Witcher off Steam this weekend and the pre-loader claims it has an "innovative combat system". It is different, but it's nothing to write home about.
Aion has a sort of 'combo' system, but I could tarnish that either by noting how it essentially requires some moves to be in a set sequence rather than freely available, or I could state that since the combos replace single moves in other games the damage potential is equivalent.
Another game that always comes to mind is SCE's attempt at J-RPG back in the 90's -- Legend of Dragoon. But that combat would probably drive off some casual gamers, and I can't imagine latency would work well with it.
 

Demgar

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There's a meme: "You're doing it wrong"

Blizzard's WoW is a very back-end loaded game. They try very hard to have everyone at max level, and design the game around that. They have nerfed and nerfed and nerfed the precap content to the point that leveling to 70 is boring as hell, yes, but shouldn't really take any serious time commitment. 70-80 takes slightly longer, but at least you are in the relevant expansion with majority of the player base that's at cap.

At level 40 with 120 hours played, I have to say you must be getting on very very slowly. The game can (and should, in it's current iteration) be advanced through much more quickly than that.

No wonder you think it's boring! You must be stopping to smell every single rose. The content you are playing through is like 6 years old, and largely abandoned. Get a move on and start leveling into the interesting stuff...