Behind the Grind

[More Fun To Compute]

I think that this is what Shamus wants to see.

And that is an official Arena.net image. Getting to max level was fairly quick in Guild Wars one but the real grind was unlocking skills like a collectable card game. Even that wasn't a case of waiting exponentially longer between each new skill unlock.

 

[snowman6251]

An opportunity to praise Demon's Souls? Oh boy!

Demon's Souls combat is what I wish MMO combat could be like. Hell Demon's Souls is basically an MMO. Summoning allies to fight through a dungeon and kill a difficult boss sounds a hell of a lot like an mmo. It doesn't really have tanks, DPS, and healers (although there are personal and team healing spells as well as a tanking ring) but if you play as a team then teamwork can help take down a boss, whereas lack of teamwork can fuck you over (I've been killed by teammates doing dumb shit in that game too many times. Do NOT spam arrows at the Old Hero. DON'T FUCKING DO IT. Idiots).

Anyway tl;dr Demon's Souls has really interesting combat, most MMO's don't, they should try and be Demon's Souls.

 

[FallenTraveler]

I ran into the exact same problem you're describing with Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. At first the game was fun because it was new and everything you did had a reward, but later on everything was pointless. I had gotten the best weapons I could currently buy, I was sitting on a boat-load of money, and it took nearly 5 hours of straight-up combat to even get close to leveling up my character.

I think you played it wrong... maybe. But seriously, I know what you are talking about, but when I played TES 3&4 I went through exploring and playing through stories, I was never interested in leveling, it just came with the story. I think that is what MMO's need (like the article says) More of a story, or something like that, and then some sort of change to the visuals. I would like to see a TES mmo, because something about their games are SO much more immersive than other games (at least in my opinion)

and now I need to go play Oblivion... damn.

 

[pastafarian]

It's not fair to Blizzard to only play a third of the game (actually far less, just a third of the leveling) and dismiss it all as a grind.

Play through the expansions and then the end game content before judging it. WoW is far more than pressing five buttons.

Then it's not fair that they charge me $15 a month for three months before I get to those "fun" parts.

I mean, if it sucks, and you have to do it to get to the good parts, then it SHOULD get mentioned. It's part of the game. Time-wise, it's a big part of the game.

This is what sprung to mind when reading your article. I fell your comparison of the leveling in WoW is not apt to comparing it to TF2. TF2 is pvp game. The enemies you have played against are scripted and, whats worse, scripted to be boring, as they are not supposed to pose a challenge to the fledgling player. TF2 is new indefinably because you are playing against players, who effectively "write" hundreds of line of script just by playing.


As a former WoW player, I hated the leveling grind (after my first character), it was a part of the game I did not enjoy. But WoW has two answers to the grind: endgame PvE (raids mostly) and endgame PvP (arenas). Arenas stay fresh in the same way TF2 does. Raids do become stale after a few months because they are scripted events, highly complex events that require the players to muster 25 concentrated players to beat, but still scripted.

On your last two points on reducing grind, I disagree on the first. I am currently playing League of Legends, and I have to reach the level cap (30) to do ranked matches, which is what I am interested in playing. Leveling up to 30 gives me many rewards, awarded both when I level and after every match I play. But it feels like a grind, something I have to do till the fun kicks in.

I wholeheartedly agree with the 2nd point, but I disagree that WoW does not accomplish it. I feel the combat both in endgame raids and in high ranking arenas is the most satisfying I've played, and they alone (I didn't really play for in game rewards, just for the pure challenge), kept me playing the game for well over a year.

Leveling is a large part of the game? Depends on how you see it. I spent, percentage wise, a small part of the hours logged leveling. Your mileage may vary, but I agree the process is way too long and not nearly as hard as it should be.

I love your columns, I love the insight you provide, but I feel you are playing the answer you were looking for. My major gripe is the endgame has too much grind between sessions of the "real" game.

TLR WoW contains top-notch gameplay, but its (purposefully?) buried in grind.

 

[SAMAS]

As the two articles attest, Grinding can be acceptable if the action itself is enjoyable.

I've played very few MMO's but the few I have played have convinced me that the combat needs to be... I don't want to say Visceral, but rather Active. I'm thinking more along the lines of Monster Hunter or Phantasy Star Online. DPS doesn't enter into it: I control how fast (and when) I inflict damage by actually pressing an attack button.

Also, I believe there needs to be an element of randomness. Of the non-MMO grinding I do, I've enjoyed the Item Worlds/Random Dungeons of the Disgaea series and related games. Particularly when the layout provides a unique challenge. In an MMO quest, for example, instead of just having, say, an ambush by the Goblin Chieftain's minions when you reach a certain room in his cave, have the ambush set to a random flag that gets triggered in a random place. It can happen in the central chamber, or in the middle of a tunnel, the Chieftain's throne room, or even outside the cave. switch up the appearances of enemies and/or their number. Maybe even randomize (partially or fully) the layout and events of the quest. Sometimes you get pincer attacked in a corridor, other times you get dropped down a trapdoor with a hungry giant spider at the bottom, sometime they sic some Trolls on you.

I think EVE Online has a good idea with the user-run content. Even if you have the majority of the content be game-generated events, the option provides an interesting way to keep things interested. This can range from things as simple as player-set bounties on items (instead of grinding for particular items, you can pay other characters to bring them to you while you go do your thing), to even player-generated dungeon challenges where they can set up their own raids, boss fights, or obstacle courses (with the caveat that they can't be too tough for the maker himself to get through) that other players can pay or wager stuff for the opportunity to finish it and win something of the creator's.

 

[ZetaAnime]

Everyone's favorite thing to do in a game MMO or RPG is GRINDING, the joys it brings of racking up XP from the same monster that stays the same. You just have to LOVE how the stupid enimy gives the same amount of XP over and over again and when finally after hours upon hours of grinding you get a small reward and told to do it again for another small reward or wait for it....wait for it the big reward or a boss fight or new area YAY. lets just hope old republic offers something new and more entertaining than grinding cause if its the same find a enimy and just spam slash it til it dies for EX.....yeah its only fun for the first 5 mins til it gets old.
TIMBAP_AJR

 

[Mushushu]

You forgot to mention FF Online as well, while its not single player friendly, and even in groups most of the enemies were pretty crazy, the reason for me leaving that game was because i got so over-frustrated with it.

every moment i was in that game i was amazed at the differences in each individual creature i was fighting, never was i ever bored or hated the lack of rewards, i ran around practically naked and was having a blast.

if this next iteration of this game fixes the language barrier, and makes it easier to solo/group. then i believe you will have a serious contender with these other MMO's

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

As a former WoW player, I hated the leveling grind (after my first character), it was a part of the game I did not enjoy. But WoW has two answers to the grind: endgame PvE (raids mostly) and endgame PvP (arenas). Arenas stay fresh in the same way TF2 does.

I stopped reading right there. Your statement about Arenas couldn't be more wrong. Having been very heavily into PvP for a while during my WoW days, I originally thought the same thing that you did. The problem though is that the more I climbed the "ladder", and the better I got at PvP, and the more studying I did on how to get better at it, the more something occurred to me:

PvP is scripted.

Now sure, sure, it's a script where the other players can kinda go improv on you, but even then it's within very tight confines. High-end arena is all about using very specific macros, or very specific spells at very specific pre-scripted times. Being good at PvP in WoW basically like being a good actor. If you stick to the script you'll rake-in the ratings, but the further off-script you go the worse you'll do.

PvP gets very boring once you realize that you're basically just adhering to a very carefully balanced script.

Now yeah, Team Fortress definitely has a lot of that kind of thing, too. If there's a choke-point being held-down by a sentry, you practically HAVE to use an Uber to break in there and destroy it. The difference though is that TF2 isn't so carefully balanced that you're forced to adhere to such a tight script. There are dozens of things you can potentially do to get that Sentry choke point down, and the better you are at the game, the more options potentially open-up depending on which class you're playing at the time.

So in short, the difference between WoW's PvP and TF2 is that WoW is VERY tightly balanced to the point where you have far less choice than you might think you do (if you want to do well, that is), where TF2 is a little more fast and loose with the rules, allowing you to kinda think on your feet on how you want to respond to a given situation.

 

[Syntax Error]

One of the better combat systems I encountered in an MMO is from Cabal: Online. It has a combo system that makes fighting mobs feel like a pseudo rhythm game. Oh, and your DPS is dependent on your combo up to perma-knockdowns/stuns. Generally, the latter is preferred for mobs and the former for duels.

Another is the one from Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine. The game has a rock-paper-scissor system that makes on-the-fly decision making all the more important. For example: Attack commands can be Countered (does damage to the attacker and knocks him back, but plants the defender to the ground) or Guarded (the Attacker deals less damage and is more prone to attack, while the defender will move slower when under the command) while Shot commands (guns and most magic) can neither be Countered or Guarded, only Dodged (again, plants the defender to the ground). It's quite the system, unfortunately, if you get mobbed, you're chances of survival is almost nil.

 

[FGRaptor]

You mentioned Guild Wars 2 and SW ToR, while ToR will have a similar system I guss, Guild Wars 2 isn't exactly an MMORPG in the sense of WoW. I think though that TERA: The Exiled Realms of Arborea might have a chance. They have real time combat. You have to actually aim at your enemy, plus you can manually dodge attacks. Bigger bosses are slower and so you can dodge their attacks as well, quite some interesting gameplay, watch some trailers.

http://www.tera-online.com/

 

[V8 Ninja]

I ran into the exact same problem you're describing with Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. At first the game was fun because it was new and everything you did had a reward, but later on everything was pointless. I had gotten the best weapons I could currently buy, I was sitting on a boat-load of money, and it took nearly 5 hours of straight-up combat to even get close to leveling up my character.

I think you played it wrong... maybe.

Yeah, I just learned that I was playing with a pretty awful character build my first time through. I'm thinking about going back to the game with another character build that should be a lot more helpful.

 

[Hoplon]

It's not fair to Blizzard to only play a third of the game (actually far less, just a third of the leveling) and dismiss it all as a grind.

Play through the expansions and then the end game content before judging it. WoW is far more than pressing five buttons.

Then it's not fair that they charge me $15 a month for three months before I get to those "fun" parts.

I mean, if it sucks, and you have to do it to get to the good parts, then it SHOULD get mentioned. It's part of the game. Time-wise, it's a big part of the game.

I think Blizzard agree with you, or they wouldn't be redoing the orginal world with Cataclysm would they?

Not a wow player my self. But I really see that as the big problem with MMO's over a PnP campaign, they are utterly static, they can't adapt or tune to challenge you, the tech just isn't there to do it on such a large scale.

If BioWare can deliver on the statements of intent for SW:tOR, it might have enough content to keep people going in a manner that is no too grind heavy.

That is, no content crossover between factions and variation between the classes in each faction.

actually delivering that could be a struggle though, that' a hell of a lot of content.

 

[Lerxst]

The true "grind" takes place when developers ignore the words of Rush - "The point of the journey is not to arrive" (Prime Mover for any fans out there).

Gaining levels, gear, items, or any other tangible or intangible rewards in MMO's will always be a grind since you're always looking to the end-goal. Everyone wants everything "uber" maxed. The players as well as developers overlook the fact that getting there is 99% of the fun.

Eventually it just becomes a race to the finish while the areas that should have engaging content, stories and characters are spread too thin to keep people entertained. I can go three or four play sessions without an in-game reward if the game play itself is the reward. But with the "go collect 25 rare drops that serve no purpose other than to fill my ridiculous quest goal and come back when you're done" quests, my intelligence gets insulted and I start to calculate how much time is needed to do these pointless acts instead of enjoying the acts themselves... in other words, the grind.

 

[FallenTraveler]

I ran into the exact same problem you're describing with Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. At first the game was fun because it was new and everything you did had a reward, but later on everything was pointless. I had gotten the best weapons I could currently buy, I was sitting on a boat-load of money, and it took nearly 5 hours of straight-up combat to even get close to leveling up my character.

I think you played it wrong... maybe.

Yeah, I just learned that I was playing with a pretty awful character build my first time through. I'm thinking about going back to the game with another character build that should be a lot more helpful.

haha, I guess that would give you a tough time good luck on the next run!

 

[Argonnosi]

I want a MMO that fights like God of War.

 

[socialmenace42]

As hatefull as this sounds, everyone knows full well that if you do somethig for long enough without fresh progression, it becomes stale. I have completed twelve playthroughs (proud fanboy) of Mass Effect one and now eight of Mass effect two but, as awesomely varied and flexible as the storyline is, when you realise you know exactly how many thugs there are in the next room, or where the best cover is going to be when you head through that door, or what smarmy comment which character is going to make in the next conversation, it's just not as absorbing as it used to be.

That's probably way down on the list of my problems, but nevermind
The point is that Grinding can be seen as a test of character. If it seriously is that important to you to get to level X that you are willing to slay the same gubbins again and again for that meaningfull 'ding' when your character gains a level, hold true to that. Dedication is a virtue.

 

[Plurralbles]

This shows why player created content could really, really shine in pretty much every context. Yes, have rules so killing a kobold doesn't give 10million xp, but having someone able to make quests and even adventures like pen and paper DND would be kick ass. As it stands, I'll keep off the computer with friends and make my own quests that I can enjoy and flavor to my liking.

 

[RandV80]

I think that this is what Shamus wants to see.

And that is an official Arena.net image. Getting to max level was fairly quick in Guild Wars one but the real grind was unlocking skills like a collectable card game. Even that wasn't a case of waiting exponentially longer between each new skill unlock.

Gotta agree here about Guild Wars. Technically when in combat it's the same thing where you're slowly whacking away hitting numbers for skills and waiting for cool downs. By placing the emphasis on skill collecting though rather than leveling and loot, combined with the amazing number of combinations you can have with the skill counts and dual classes, while not having the "action" thing down it added a much bigger tactical and strategy side to the game.

The traditional RPG way, single player or MMO, is that as you level up you follow a skill tree. To be able to gain more skills and try new things you have to continue to level up. Guild Wars was different in that while progressing through the game earned you more skills and combinations, at anytime you could stop and re-invent yourself. With my Warrior/Elementalist I did so 5 times playing through the original game.

Now I'm not trying to say Guild Wars is greater than all else, it still has it's own problems. But it does provide a different experience, not for the person that wants an action game, but for those that like strategy and tactics. Though of course this can still be broken as WhiteTigerShiro talks about above, when the community starts to determine the most effective strategies and builds and everyone's expected to follow along, all that individual strategic creativity can be lost.

 

[Necrofudge]

And this is the reason that MMORPGs are dead to me.
In all the games I've played, no matter how fun it's described by other people, the fact of the matter is that grinding gets things done but grinding is not fun. (haha rhymed there)

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Though of course this can still be broken as WhiteTigerShiro talks about above, when the community starts to determine the most effective strategies and builds and everyone's expected to follow along, all that individual strategic creativity can be lost.

I agree that the strategy game still seems to get "solved" pretty by the brute force of a lot of people finding the best builds then sharing them so you don't have much chance of finding a great build by yourself. The builds I have seen still leave a skill or two free to experiment with and it does still take skill when playing. I enjoyed the game the most playing random PvP just after launch due to finding or researching interesting builds and surprising people.