Best Animation Style Ever
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I have to agree with the result from the video. When I was younger, I was really into anime, and was very keen to share. But these days, I look back on some of the stuff I thought was good, and kind of cringe.
I don't get that when I look back on the Western movies and shows I enjoyed. Ducktails and The Land Before Time are still as good to watch today as they were back then. There are, of course, exceptions to this... Macross will always hold a special place in my heart, as will anything made by Gainax. But in hindsight, I can see all the problems they have. Whereas I only have a greater appreciation for the Western animations.
I still think that Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan is the best example of passion on cell though...
Oh and Dan, now I think about it, watch Macross Plus. One of the easiest anime to start with.
I don't get that when I look back on the Western movies and shows I enjoyed. Ducktails and The Land Before Time are still as good to watch today as they were back then. There are, of course, exceptions to this... Macross will always hold a special place in my heart, as will anything made by Gainax. But in hindsight, I can see all the problems they have. Whereas I only have a greater appreciation for the Western animations.
I still think that Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan is the best example of passion on cell though...
Oh and Dan, now I think about it, watch Macross Plus. One of the easiest anime to start with.
I liked the addendum episode from Batman Beyond. I think it was "Meltdown" or something like that. When Freeze was resurrected, only to be alienated once again, before finally committing suicide following a violent outburst.TheKasp said:
Chris I definitely agree on the violent outburst part. Not to name names, but I've seen some rather ridiculous arguments made by the more excessive members of ANN. I remember last year when Tokyo's government put the law in place to censor shows they felt promoted underage sexual content, and an ANN member went berserk, blaming the entire thing on the North American animation industry.
Now that obviously doesn't stand for every person, but the vocal minority are the ones you see most often on forums, and they're usually the most annoying.
And Dan, since you mentioned the inaccessibility of Anime series, allow me to throw another Cowboy Bebop recommendation. Most episodes can be watched on their own, with only a handful focusing on the major antagonist Vicious. And most of those episodes are two parters.
The thread went sour? No idea, i abandoned that boat way early cuz it was obvious it was headed towards disaster.
I will say this though, anime fans are indeed a weird bunch, i have been avoiding conventions and furries all my life, but one of the reasons it went to hell was the poor debate in the video. Anime is a medium that has had a long history, and which can't be discussed unless you have seen those cartoons for years; i have been reading casually manga and seeing anime for around 20 years now, and in the video you discussed anime taking the anime shown in popular american TV channels as if it was all of it.
AFAIR all of Dan's arguments had an amazing counterexample, and Chris didn't seemed too into anime either, so it's no surprise that something as beloved by teens as anime would stirr the fans the wrong way. As for "False, anime is defined by the world as Toonami and Speed Racer" this is indded ture, but opera is defined by the world as "the fat lady singing", still if i see a vid by you guys about opera i do expect more than that; especially since this is a videogame site and you know anime and gaming are two of the closest pop culture movements, almost like break dance and hip hop.
As for "Anime owes everything to Disney"... not exactly, anime owes everything to Tezuka Osamu and he was a hardcore Disney fan. To continue the analogies saying anime owes everything to disney would be like saying jazz owes everything to Africa or that surrealism owes everything to El Greco. And even though Tezuka was indeed a passionate disney fan, his masterworks surpass anything i have seen from disney, by far, would like to reccomend hi no tori and buddha especially.
Anway, i still think the vid was low, very low in quiality, and on a touchy subject. Still, it was not a big deal, just showed that neither was a deep into anime, no fault in that; but not a great idea to make a video about it then.
I will say this though, anime fans are indeed a weird bunch, i have been avoiding conventions and furries all my life, but one of the reasons it went to hell was the poor debate in the video. Anime is a medium that has had a long history, and which can't be discussed unless you have seen those cartoons for years; i have been reading casually manga and seeing anime for around 20 years now, and in the video you discussed anime taking the anime shown in popular american TV channels as if it was all of it.
AFAIR all of Dan's arguments had an amazing counterexample, and Chris didn't seemed too into anime either, so it's no surprise that something as beloved by teens as anime would stirr the fans the wrong way. As for "False, anime is defined by the world as Toonami and Speed Racer" this is indded ture, but opera is defined by the world as "the fat lady singing", still if i see a vid by you guys about opera i do expect more than that; especially since this is a videogame site and you know anime and gaming are two of the closest pop culture movements, almost like break dance and hip hop.
As for "Anime owes everything to Disney"... not exactly, anime owes everything to Tezuka Osamu and he was a hardcore Disney fan. To continue the analogies saying anime owes everything to disney would be like saying jazz owes everything to Africa or that surrealism owes everything to El Greco. And even though Tezuka was indeed a passionate disney fan, his masterworks surpass anything i have seen from disney, by far, would like to reccomend hi no tori and buddha especially.
Anway, i still think the vid was low, very low in quiality, and on a touchy subject. Still, it was not a big deal, just showed that neither was a deep into anime, no fault in that; but not a great idea to make a video about it then.
As to Graham's point about anime coming into being second, what's the point of pointing out that anime originated from western animation? Yes, that happened, but does that superior determine quality? No, and besides, we wouldn't be having this discussion if we didn't feel they branched off in style at some point. Rock music owes its creation to Jazz: Does saying "Jazz came first" stop all arguments over which is better? I don't think so.
As to Kyle's argument on the mass appeal of both mediums, I'd say is also irrelevant. Every piece of entertainment is something that audiences "...are hooked on, or couldn't care less about." I think Football (of the American variety) is incredibly boring sport, and that I couldn't be bothered to watch the superbowl, despite it being one of if not the US's most popular event. By Kyle's argument, I can't ever win a debate about Football being boring because I am in the minority in my opinion, and it is not "normal". All fanbases also have tiers that separate fans, as I'm sure somewhere a older Eagles fan is chastising a younger fan for his lack of knowledge because he has been watching Football for 15 more years than him, and watches other team's games, unlike his younger counterpart.
I think I finally understand where Dan comes from in his dislike of anime, and that is a finite amount of detail. Most anime, for Dan, is far too detailed, and thus, far too distracting, for Dan's visual aesthetics. When Mr. Freeze narrows his eyebrows, Dan knows he's angry, and that's enough. In anime, when Goku narrows his eyebrows, veins bulge around his eyes, he screams, and then is enveloped in a red glow, it's over-the-top for Dan.
The other reason, I'd guess, is because Dan wants his entertainment to be relateable. There's a cultural divide in all anime, with some cues being more specific to Japan than being something American or universal, and also in his own examples of 12 oz. Mouse and Aqua Teen Hunger Force, where cultural trends and normalcy are ignored in order to present something ridiculous.
As to Kyle's argument on the mass appeal of both mediums, I'd say is also irrelevant. Every piece of entertainment is something that audiences "...are hooked on, or couldn't care less about." I think Football (of the American variety) is incredibly boring sport, and that I couldn't be bothered to watch the superbowl, despite it being one of if not the US's most popular event. By Kyle's argument, I can't ever win a debate about Football being boring because I am in the minority in my opinion, and it is not "normal". All fanbases also have tiers that separate fans, as I'm sure somewhere a older Eagles fan is chastising a younger fan for his lack of knowledge because he has been watching Football for 15 more years than him, and watches other team's games, unlike his younger counterpart.
I think I finally understand where Dan comes from in his dislike of anime, and that is a finite amount of detail. Most anime, for Dan, is far too detailed, and thus, far too distracting, for Dan's visual aesthetics. When Mr. Freeze narrows his eyebrows, Dan knows he's angry, and that's enough. In anime, when Goku narrows his eyebrows, veins bulge around his eyes, he screams, and then is enveloped in a red glow, it's over-the-top for Dan.
The other reason, I'd guess, is because Dan wants his entertainment to be relateable. There's a cultural divide in all anime, with some cues being more specific to Japan than being something American or universal, and also in his own examples of 12 oz. Mouse and Aqua Teen Hunger Force, where cultural trends and normalcy are ignored in order to present something ridiculous.
I really don't understand why Dan was even in this debate at all, when it was clear that he had seen little to no anime. How are you supposed to develop any relative criticism of something without knowing anything about it? All he could come up with were generalizations about the art style from the little he's seen and complaints about the shows having continuity. It just shows his complete ignorance on the subject and the medium.
If you were going to title the debate anything, it should have been "Action (Kids) Anime vs. American Cartoons" because that's what the debate basically was. Anime has a lot of genres that can't really be represented in a few examples and the anime that Kyle choose was very poor. Bleach, Naruto,... really? I mean they're popular but that's like using the Transformers movies to represent Western Cinema. Any mention of other Anime and Dan just says he hasn't seen it, as if that disqualifies it from the argument. You mentioned Cowboy Bebop and Studio Ghibli, but Dan just pushed those examples aside since HE HADN'T SEEN THEM. I'm not saying that Dan shouldn't dislike Anime, but at least research what your talking about before debating against it. At least it will allow you to have stronger points in your argument.
The inability of these debaters to bring up good points or even research what they are talking about just proves how far this show has to go. It really is disappointing. I will agree with Dan on one thing though. Batman: The Animated Series is an awesome show.
If you were going to title the debate anything, it should have been "Action (Kids) Anime vs. American Cartoons" because that's what the debate basically was. Anime has a lot of genres that can't really be represented in a few examples and the anime that Kyle choose was very poor. Bleach, Naruto,... really? I mean they're popular but that's like using the Transformers movies to represent Western Cinema. Any mention of other Anime and Dan just says he hasn't seen it, as if that disqualifies it from the argument. You mentioned Cowboy Bebop and Studio Ghibli, but Dan just pushed those examples aside since HE HADN'T SEEN THEM. I'm not saying that Dan shouldn't dislike Anime, but at least research what your talking about before debating against it. At least it will allow you to have stronger points in your argument.
The inability of these debaters to bring up good points or even research what they are talking about just proves how far this show has to go. It really is disappointing. I will agree with Dan on one thing though. Batman: The Animated Series is an awesome show.
Well, you ass should be sore then.TheKasp said:
I am not going to do a sweep generalization saying "anime is so much more mature", but there's a fundamental difference between anime and manga. Anime most of the time is based on manga, which started aimed as children in the 50's, but by 1956 started to show the first examples of seinen mangas (targeted at 18-30 guys) and by the 80's there were mainstream magazines devoted entierly to seinen; as such manga and anime were never considered "kid's stuff" in Japan. In general therms cartoons, until very recently, were just targeted at kids.
Sure, you can argue that Fritz the Cat (72) was darker and more mature than any anime produced at the time; tough argument to make as the plot is it's weakest part IMO, but possible; the thing is anime starts as massive phenomena in the 80's, exactly as seinen have enough audience to be viable, and some of it's early seinen works are very interesting (like Leiji Matsumoto's ones), and also were a commercial success. As such anime targeted to 18-30 men has always been a part of the market in Japan, comparatively in US cartoons were (until very recently) regarded as for children, and in Europe the animation studios just didn't made enough money to keep a steady flow of works (which is a shame, they had amazing writers and artist); thus, yeah, there is a bigger pool of mature and dark works in anime than in western cartoons, and the gap seems to still be growning.
Better? Mhee, depends on tastes, but for me, yeah, also better. Though western animation suddenly started to improve in the early/mid 90's.
Curiously enough, is this manga root that usually keeps anime from being a single chapter story medium, however that doesn't mean there aren't single chapter amazing animes since the old times (like Lupin the III) till today (samurai shamploo and mushishi off the top of my head).
Dan just brought up an amazing point I never noticed before about anime that I wish he had mentioned in the argument because I wold have unquestioningly agreed with him (despite liking anime myself). Like he said, you can jump into the middle of a series in ALMOST any western animation and know exactly what's going on (for the most part) and not need the rest of the series to explain why things are going on in episode X. Anime, for the most part, requires the entire series up to that point to figure out what's going on, and even then, it isn't a guarantee that you'll understand the whole story. This alone, sells me on Western being better than anime. Again, nothing against anime, I still love it. But you can't argue against western animation being better for anyone to just get into whenever they want.
I sure know that in no way would Archer work as an anime, or The Regular Show and Adventure Time, although these last two show more their western roots on the dialogue.
That is also one of the things that bugs me on animes, the dialogue is never natural although I am only saying this based on some animes shows that I have watched, the chunks of the Miyazaki movies that I saw didnt had this problem.
That is also one of the things that bugs me on animes, the dialogue is never natural although I am only saying this based on some animes shows that I have watched, the chunks of the Miyazaki movies that I saw didnt had this problem.
Well, i can say that buddha is a manga/anime movie rich in philosophy (more serious than any US cartoon i have ever seen), that Akumetsu or Viking are mangas that dwell in the current political situation of Japan, Hetalia making comedy based approach of historic events; that Lain, Hellsing Ultimate or Koroshiya Ichi are darker; but i will just disengage from the thread saying that the Lion King is a remake of an anime/manga.TheKasp said:
Edit: I am not touching Ren & Stimpy with a 20 feet pole because i love that cartoon, also in general i would say that american cartoons are better at psychedelic themes.
In my opinion it's incorrect to just the medium on fanboys and extremes, but hey, at least he'll make the effort to see more anime and have a more solid opinion one way or the other.
A big thing of it is that animation is so much bigger of a phenomenon in japan than it is here. With so much on the market you are bound to have alot of arrows missing the target, but still plenty to occupy the bullseye. And yeah, there will be alot of shows made in Japan that are catered to people that live......in Japan. It's easy for us to call American shows universal because A) We're American and B) America is the melting pot. Personally I think it's a good thing when a show introduces you to a foreign culture and maybe peeks your interest into foreign folklore, but maybe that's just me.
As to not being able to step into the middle of an anime.....yeah, it's called an ongoing story. The vast majority of Western shows are purely episodic while alot of anime are ongoing stories. Really a taste thing. I like ongoing stories, but if others don't so be it, I suppose.
Boils down to opinion, but of course a more researched opinion is nicer. And lo he is going to watch more, and I salute him for the effort whether his mind is changed or stays as is.
Final word: I like Anime better. =D
A big thing of it is that animation is so much bigger of a phenomenon in japan than it is here. With so much on the market you are bound to have alot of arrows missing the target, but still plenty to occupy the bullseye. And yeah, there will be alot of shows made in Japan that are catered to people that live......in Japan. It's easy for us to call American shows universal because A) We're American and B) America is the melting pot. Personally I think it's a good thing when a show introduces you to a foreign culture and maybe peeks your interest into foreign folklore, but maybe that's just me.
As to not being able to step into the middle of an anime.....yeah, it's called an ongoing story. The vast majority of Western shows are purely episodic while alot of anime are ongoing stories. Really a taste thing. I like ongoing stories, but if others don't so be it, I suppose.
Boils down to opinion, but of course a more researched opinion is nicer. And lo he is going to watch more, and I salute him for the effort whether his mind is changed or stays as is.
Final word: I like Anime better. =D
I can't tell if you're saying you'll avoid the ridiculous accusation often aimed at The Lion King, or using that as your final statement. In either case, it is a ludicrous claim.Tanakh said:
Well, i was raised on a mix of spanish, mexican, native american, US american, french, chilenean and japanese cultures :3TheKasp said:
A friend of mine that was raised mix cultures used to complain that it gave no identity and made you feel foreign everywhere, i guess it`s true, the idea of "belonging somewhere" is alien to me and "fighting for a contry" is totally lolz.
...Did they seriously just invoke the old "the fans are a point against the medium" tripe? I'm sorry, but no, that is not a valid argument (in fact, I'm rather certain it's a variant of the Association Fallacy). A fandom's reaction reflects very little on that of which he/she is a fan, and at best could be related back to the fandom itself.
It should really go without saying that no matter how much I hate cheeseheads I could not use them as a justification for why I hate football. I could use it for why I hate going to football games, but my criticism would not apply to the sport itself unless the teams actually started wearing those cheeseheads on the field. Similarly, I can't complain about the internet creating porn of and think that such a thing would work as criticism of . Similarly, one cannot use Internet Backdraft as an argument against the medium in question (and let's be honest, it is FAR from unique to anime). Come on people. That's just plain poor form.
It should really go without saying that no matter how much I hate cheeseheads I could not use them as a justification for why I hate football. I could use it for why I hate going to football games, but my criticism would not apply to the sport itself unless the teams actually started wearing those cheeseheads on the field. Similarly, I can't complain about the internet creating porn of and think that such a thing would work as criticism of . Similarly, one cannot use Internet Backdraft as an argument against the medium in question (and let's be honest, it is FAR from unique to anime). Come on people. That's just plain poor form.
I'd say it was more loosely based off of Hamlet, and perhaps inspired somewhat by Kimba in a few instances. Many of the things associated by some people with being "ripped off", besides character designs (which don't exactly convince me, either) are just common to storytelling in general (friends who become more than friends, a one-eyed villain with a scar, a dead father, etc.) Anyways, I'd trust the creative integrity of the animators enough that I don't believe they'd just steal those things.Tanakh said:
Whilst I largely agree with this, I have to say that when I lived in Tokyo, I was surprised by the number of large noses and angular features. Of course, these are their common people, and not the actors and models used in the videos examples.Eri said:
It's also a fact that some Japanese do have surgery to increase the size of their eyes, but whether this is due to trying to live up to Western or Japanese standards is up to the individual. Don't know if people do that in the West too.
The video is spot on about the eyes and skin though, which I frequently have to explain to people.
Sorry Chris, but I think limiting examples of an American form of media to those well known in America and limiting examples of a Japanese form of media to those well known in America is handicapping the latter. The obscure stuff from Japan will never have made the leap over the big pond, while the obscure stuff from America just might be something your grandma heard about.
Speaking of America, often when I read the densest manga or watch the symbolic...est anime I find that I don't quite understand what's going on, and I feel it's because I don't have quite the same understanding of Japanese culture that is needed to get it. The perceived 'weirdness' in fact comes from cultural references that Japanese people would get instantaneously but that Westerns simply don't have the frame of reference necessary to understand. That cuts both ways: Dan may complain because anime is 'weird for the sake of weird', but there are also fans who enjoy this weirdness when it's essentially a translation error. Since animation depends much more on symbolism and signifiers than other forms of work (except maybe comics, and that's a big maybe) the gap between the two cultures might be much more visible at that point. A deeper analysis might also turn up that some of those themes that Dan identified in the video are more linked to national identity and culture than some intentional theme hammering. If I recall correctly American movies are not big in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised if American animation is perceived similarly in there.
It was a cool episode anyway. As long as Dan approaches the genre with an open mind he's bound to find something he likes, so I'll be waiting for the West vs. East Revenge episode in which Chris and Dan switch sides. Chris will wear a Batman mask.
Speaking of America, often when I read the densest manga or watch the symbolic...est anime I find that I don't quite understand what's going on, and I feel it's because I don't have quite the same understanding of Japanese culture that is needed to get it. The perceived 'weirdness' in fact comes from cultural references that Japanese people would get instantaneously but that Westerns simply don't have the frame of reference necessary to understand. That cuts both ways: Dan may complain because anime is 'weird for the sake of weird', but there are also fans who enjoy this weirdness when it's essentially a translation error. Since animation depends much more on symbolism and signifiers than other forms of work (except maybe comics, and that's a big maybe) the gap between the two cultures might be much more visible at that point. A deeper analysis might also turn up that some of those themes that Dan identified in the video are more linked to national identity and culture than some intentional theme hammering. If I recall correctly American movies are not big in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised if American animation is perceived similarly in there.
It was a cool episode anyway. As long as Dan approaches the genre with an open mind he's bound to find something he likes, so I'll be waiting for the West vs. East Revenge episode in which Chris and Dan switch sides. Chris will wear a Batman mask.