Best Animation Style Ever

[Asita]

...Did they seriously just invoke the old "the fans are a point against the medium" tripe? I'm sorry, but no, that is not a valid argument (in fact, I'm rather certain it's a variant of the Association Fallacy). A fandom's reaction reflects very little on that of which he/she is a fan, and at best could be related back to the fandom itself.

It should really go without saying that no matter how much I hate cheeseheads I could not use them as a justification for why I hate football. I could use it for why I hate going to football games, but my criticism would not apply to the sport itself unless the teams actually started wearing those cheeseheads on the field. Similarly, I can't complain about the internet creating porn of and think that such a thing would work as criticism of . Similarly, one cannot use Internet Backdraft as an argument against the medium in question (and let's be honest, it is FAR from unique to anime). Come on people. That's just plain poor form.

 

[josephmatthew10]

I can't tell if you're saying you'll avoid the ridiculous accusation often aimed at The Lion King, or using that as your final statement. In either case, it is a ludicrous claim.

Well, yeah, i guess remake isn't the correct wording; more like loosely based on (without paying copyrights), Simba, Mufasa, Scar, Nala, Raffiki, Sarabi and the hyenas are heavily inspired in, but Timon and Pumba certanly aren't.

I'd say it was more loosely based off of Hamlet, and perhaps inspired somewhat by Kimba in a few instances. Many of the things associated by some people with being "ripped off", besides character designs (which don't exactly convince me, either) are just common to storytelling in general (friends who become more than friends, a one-eyed villain with a scar, a dead father, etc.) Anyways, I'd trust the creative integrity of the animators enough that I don't believe they'd just steal those things.

 

[beniki]

They look white, have big eyes? Uh, Nope.avi

Whilst I largely agree with this, I have to say that when I lived in Tokyo, I was surprised by the number of large noses and angular features. Of course, these are their common people, and not the actors and models used in the videos examples.

It's also a fact that some Japanese do have surgery to increase the size of their eyes, but whether this is due to trying to live up to Western or Japanese standards is up to the individual. Don't know if people do that in the West too.

The video is spot on about the eyes and skin though, which I frequently have to explain to people.

 

[The Random One]

Sorry Chris, but I think limiting examples of an American form of media to those well known in America and limiting examples of a Japanese form of media to those well known in America is handicapping the latter. The obscure stuff from Japan will never have made the leap over the big pond, while the obscure stuff from America just might be something your grandma heard about.

Speaking of America, often when I read the densest manga or watch the symbolic...est anime I find that I don't quite understand what's going on, and I feel it's because I don't have quite the same understanding of Japanese culture that is needed to get it. The perceived 'weirdness' in fact comes from cultural references that Japanese people would get instantaneously but that Westerns simply don't have the frame of reference necessary to understand. That cuts both ways: Dan may complain because anime is 'weird for the sake of weird', but there are also fans who enjoy this weirdness when it's essentially a translation error. Since animation depends much more on symbolism and signifiers than other forms of work (except maybe comics, and that's a big maybe) the gap between the two cultures might be much more visible at that point. A deeper analysis might also turn up that some of those themes that Dan identified in the video are more linked to national identity and culture than some intentional theme hammering. If I recall correctly American movies are not big in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised if American animation is perceived similarly in there.

It was a cool episode anyway. As long as Dan approaches the genre with an open mind he's bound to find something he likes, so I'll be waiting for the West vs. East Revenge episode in which Chris and Dan switch sides. Chris will wear a Batman mask.

 

[Tanakh]

-snip-

Well, Disney movies haven't been exactly innovative in their plots. Most of them, I daresay the best ones, are just retellings of old stories incorporating the "core american values" of the time. Usually i dislike those, a lot; in some cases i prefer ancient versions due the narrative style, inclusion of sex (which is darn important if you are a princess), and because when they intend to be cautionary tales, don't turn their eye shy to the violence, still the Disney versions are plenty good; in others i think Disney absolutely butchers the source material like Alice's movie wich seems to find in the book little more than colorful worlds with buffons and seems to be oblivious to those worlds being more akin to exercises in creating logic non euclidean geometires by one of the first logicist in the modern mathematical sense.

For what is worth, I think the Lion King is one of their better works, even better than the original anime if only because Kimba has a lot of unneccesary scenes and both stories are at his core focused about the cicle of life. Still, I don't see how to argue that it is closely based on Hamlet than Kimba, the story follows more closely some Kimba's arcs, Scar in particular resambles Specklerex much more than Claudius, partly because Sarabi doesn't have anything to do with Gertrude, after the death of Mufasa, Sarabi is more or leass a token character, where Gertrude is vital to understand the metal condition of Hamlet. You can see some decent arguments and pictures here, in the end i guess they doesn't matter as much, but consider this, Hamlet is at it's core about revange, madness and treachery, Kimba is about mutal understanding and the place of each being in nature's order, with that in mind (disregarding the artistic designs and plot similarities) is that i say that i fail to see how it can possibly be based on Hamlet over Kimba.

That said, stealing isn't part of an artist job, unless they are great of course.

Whilst I largely agree with this, I have to say that when I lived in Tokyo, I was surprised by the number of large noses and angular features. Of course, these are their common people, and not the actors and models used in the videos examples.

Actually I think they are more common in samurai people. I have little basis to say this, but after asking around a hunderd Japanese subjects, I found that people with large noses have roghtly twice of being aware of having samurai blood. I also strongly suspect that the skinny super angular people that comes to mind with "japanese otaku" have more chances of having Korean blood, but... well, you know, it's not easy for a japanese to tell you about that.

As for the actual video, I don't think neither Disney nor Tezuka (the two artist that infuenced the most over the "classic anime style") were thinking about making their works of a particular race. In Tezuka's work is very patent that the character desing was more a symbol of it's role, rather than an ethnic statement.

 

[remm2004]

This was disappointing at best and plain dumb at worst.
It?s obvious that none of three came even remotely prepared to discuss the subject at hand, if it wasn?t clear before, it?s clear now. Even the one who was supposed to be defending anime was working with the knowledge of some recent movies and nostalgia (which, IMHO, should never be used to discuss anything but nostalgia itself).
The second one knew nothing AT ALL. And Dan is the worst one, comparing THE Batman to a barely relevant US-funded production (and BTW, no, Aeon Flux is not anime) that?s been forgotten already by the community; had he been using Gurren Lagann or even K-on! (both award winning cliché filled works), then I may have considered that he knew what he was talking about.

 

[DioWallachia]

.........

Did that guy even know that Aeon Flux was written AND animated by Peter Chung a KOREAN American?? Basically the point falls in favor for the Anime/Eastern Animation.

Fool

 

[DioWallachia]

People here forget that 2 WESTERN AMERICAN people are debating about what animation style is better. It was obvious that the Eastern side is going to lose if the one defending it doesnt know anything more tan a few examples; He says that there isnt more good examples for Anime but how does he know that? Keep in mind that even if there is good anime what are the chances that it EVEN gets attention our EVEN exported to America?? There is a reason that Anime like Mad Bull 34 gets greenlighted to be created and exported, because that its what the Eastern producers THINK its what the people in the West want.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

I know a lot of pretentious wackjobs who will cut your head off if you don't like western animation. The kind of people who glorify the golden age of Disney as the greatest era of anything ever. The kind of people liked Epic Mickey. These people exist. ...they're usually five years old.

Anyway, I find this whole argument to be petty and nonsensical and rather dumb. Western animation comprises of a fuckton of completely different styles, sensibilities and mediums, as does Japanese animation. There's American animation directed by Japanese people and Japanese animation directed by American people. From different approaches to 2D animation and 3D animation, from storytelling differences to just the whole way management works - both mediums have their share of differences within themselves and comparing the two does only one thing: alienate and isolate people whose only separation of the two "genres" (for lack of a better term) is their own opinion.

 

[Sotanaht]

I notice one of the points for western animation seems to be the self-contained, episodic nature or most series. In itself, that's not entirely true. Right next to the Batman TAS example I could cite the X-men cartoon from roughly the same time which was heavily arc driven, and I'm sure anyone who knows anime better than I do can cite plenty of series that with purely self-contained episodes.

The bigger issue though is that that particular point is one up for debate in and of itself. Which is better, self-contained episodes, or season-spanning story arcs? Myself, I tend to prefer the latter (at least outside of comedy), as it tends to allow for plots with much more depth and development. Also on a personal note I find it harder to get into a new story, so I would prefer that once I get over that initial hurdle that there is something for me to follow for a long time, rather then something new I have to get into every episode.


Another point I think might be worth mentioning is the weirdness factor. A great deal of western animation, especially aimed at older children (10-13?) tends, or has tended in the past to be both weird, and more often outright gross. Ren and Stimpy comes to mind, not as a bad series (it's pretty well liked), but one that would definitely qualify on those two counts.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

Oh, I'd also like to mention something rather important: cinematography and filmmaking. I feel, for the most part, the Japanese exercise this more often. To quote Brad Bird from when he was working on The Simpsons: "we might not be able to have better animation, but we can have better filmmaking." This is one of the reasons I admire The Simpsons beyond its writing - unlike the majority of its peers, it knows how important blocking is to the visual storytelling of animation.

This only really applies to TV (since movies have it down pat), but here's a real quick trick when determining if something is good at visual storytelling. When you're watching it, switch the sound off. Watch the whole show (or just 10 minutes, whatever)... if you can follow the gist of what's going on, it's good! If you can't, it's not so good. I feel, more than ever, modern American TV animation rests on the quality of its dialog to present a quality show, while Japanese animation - most likely to compensate for less animators and lower keyframe rate - spends a lot of time refining the visual elements to tell their story. I have a theory that this is why so many people either prefer or just don't mind subs - they're being told a story with pictures, not sounds, and subs don't detract from the experience. They don't mind, perhaps, that they don't wholly understand what they're hearing - it's a visual medium and they're digesting it all visually.

So that's really a huge point as to why so many people will argue that Japanese TV animation is better than American TV animation. It's certainly a moot point regarding animated features (usually), but it is perhaps the most important aspect of animated storytelling. And when Americans have shows like Family Guy, which essentially have the blocking of a two-camera sitcom, it really raises the bar in the Japanese's favour.

 

[Rarhnor]

This only really applies to TV (since movies have it down pat), but here's a real quick trick when determining if something is good at visual storytelling. When you're watching it, switch the sound off. Watch the whole show (or just 10 minutes, whatever)... if you can follow the gist of what's going on, it's good! If you can't, it's not so good. I feel, more than ever, modern American TV animation rests on the quality of its dialog to present a quality show, while Japanese animation - most likely to compensate for less animators and lower keyframe rate - spends a lot of time refining the visual elements to tell their story.

I'll just throw it out there that animes tend to have monologue (both outer and inner), while western, from my esperience with, usually doesn't. Often the monologue tends to be badly handled (for eastern and western genres), too. I've seen few anime that actually incoorperates the visual elements, and throws away the need for voice-acting, to the degree of western animations (UP, The Lionking, The Rescuers Down Under), but not enough to make me watch an anime without expecting monologue, much less well-handled.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

This only really applies to TV (since movies have it down pat), but here's a real quick trick when determining if something is good at visual storytelling. When you're watching it, switch the sound off. Watch the whole show (or just 10 minutes, whatever)... if you can follow the gist of what's going on, it's good! If you can't, it's not so good. I feel, more than ever, modern American TV animation rests on the quality of its dialog to present a quality show, while Japanese animation - most likely to compensate for less animators and lower keyframe rate - spends a lot of time refining the visual elements to tell their story.

I'll just throw it out there that animes tend to have monologue (both outer and inner), while western, from my esperience with, usually doesn't. Often the monologue tends to be badly handled (for eastern and western genres), too. I've seen few anime that actually incoorperates the visual elements, and throws away the need for voice-acting, to the degree of western animations (UP, The Lionking, The Rescuers Down Under), but not enough to make me watch an anime without expecting monologue, much less well-handled.

It should be pointed out that when translated into English, the script is completely altered and often, say, five paragraphs worth of Japanese gets crammed into maybe half a sentence worth of English, resulting in a stifled and wholly unnatural approach to lazy exposition. That's my experience anyway. Japanese to English translation is very hard considering the differences between the languages and it's not often pulled off smoothly at all.

Disregard this if you actually watch anime in Japanese and have come to this conclusion that way. Oh well.

 

[Rarhnor]

This only really applies to TV (since movies have it down pat), but here's a real quick trick when determining if something is good at visual storytelling. When you're watching it, switch the sound off. Watch the whole show (or just 10 minutes, whatever)... if you can follow the gist of what's going on, it's good! If you can't, it's not so good. I feel, more than ever, modern American TV animation rests on the quality of its dialog to present a quality show, while Japanese animation - most likely to compensate for less animators and lower keyframe rate - spends a lot of time refining the visual elements to tell their story.

I'll just throw it out there that animes tend to have monologue (both outer and inner), while western, from my experience with, usually doesn't. Often the monologue tends to be badly handled (for eastern and western genres), too. I've seen few anime that actually incorporates the visual elements, and throws away the need for voice-acting, to the degree of western animations (UP, The Lionking, The Rescuers Down Under), but not enough to make me watch an anime without expecting monologue, much less well-handled.

It should be pointed out that when translated into English, the script is completely altered and often, say, five paragraphs worth of Japanese gets crammed into maybe half a sentence worth of English, resulting in a stifled and wholly unnatural approach to lazy exposition. That's my experience anyway. Japanese to English translation is very hard considering the differences between the languages and it's not often pulled off smoothly at all.

Disregard this if you actually watch anime in Japanese and have come to this conclusion that way. Oh well.

Noted.
I did take it into consideration in my post, but its probably not as clear though. Sorry. It was the actual implementation that I put emphasis on, like using the monologue to over-explain things. Things that COULD be told through the art.
I don't really know why they keep doing though. My uneducated guess is that it is because anime are usually adapted from manga (almost directly), which arguably need the monologue.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

Noted.
I did take it into consideration in my post, but its probably not as clear though. Sorry. It was the actual implementation that I put emphasis on, like using the monologue to over-explain things. Things that COULD be told through the art.
I don't really know why they keep doing though. My uneducated guess is that it is because anime are usually adapted from manga (almost directly), which arguably need the monologue.

It's just that... well, I haven't noticed that. And this isn't from a hardcore "ALL ANIME IS GREAT" fan, I mean... from all the anime I've watched, I have never noticed this; at least not prominently enough to call it a trend. I'm genuinely shocked that someone else has made this observation.

I don't know. Maybe you've just not watched the anime I have. But I'm slightly surprised. ...I mean, I know there's a LOT of lazy anime, but it never occurred to me that they relied on monologue for exposition. Who knows.

 

[Rarhnor]

Noted.
I did take it into consideration in my post, but its probably not as clear though. Sorry. It was the actual implementation that I put emphasis on, like using the monologue to over-explain things. Things that COULD be told through the art.
I don't really know why they keep doing though. My uneducated guess is that it is because anime are usually adapted from manga (almost directly), which arguably need the monologue.

It's just that... well, I haven't noticed that. And this isn't from a hardcore "ALL ANIME IS GREAT" fan, I mean... from all the anime I've watched, I have never noticed this; at least not prominently enough to call it a trend. I'm genuinely shocked that someone else has made this observation.

I don't know. Maybe you've just not watched the anime I have. But I'm slightly surprised. ...I mean, I know there's a LOT of lazy anime, but it never occurred to me that they relied on monologue for exposition. Who knows.

I've watched plenty. To be fair though, I watched Katanagatari since my first post, which does actually do the "art tells the story" thing (quite good aswell). So yeah, maybe its a coincidence that I haven't bumped into the "visual storytelling" as often as I should. Who knows.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

I've watched plenty. To be fair though, I watched Katanagatari since my first post, which does actually do the "art tells the story" thing (quite good aswell). So yeah, maybe its a coincidence that I haven't bumped into the "visual storytelling" as often as I should. Who knows.

There is a lot of anime, makes sense I guess... I'd wager you haven't read the same comic books as me, definitely not all the same videogames as me - or anyone else for that matter. These things have huge wells of both good and bad content and I guess it's inappropriate to judge anything a as a trend based on what is a relatively small handful of examples.

 

[jecht35]

Mmmm I really think they should have gotten a better person to portray anime, and even if they did, like the shows title there is no right answer because these two styles are vastly diffrent in almost every way. And I mostly agree with what people have already said on this forum well the sensable ones anyways, So I'll just leave my favorite anime for Dan to at least think about watching Mushishi, Eden of the East since this is a building story with 13 episode and two movies watch everything, baka and test, case closed in epic in my opionion all you really need to see is the first an second episode and you get gist of it after, Hetalia, and ummm maybe ghost in the shell you could just watch the movie but there are some filler episodes that are fun to watch.