Best "Villains in Name Only"?

[Treblaine]

Bury all the feelings because in some odd circular logic they all lead to suffering.

Sounds like you are citing the awful awful AWFUL prequel trilogy again with Yoda's 6-degrees of separation with emotions bullshit.

No. Just god dammit NO! Ignore the Prequel Trilogy, they make no sense, never let anything that happened in them affect you impression of the series. Just forget it.

Look, the Jedi in the prequel Trilogy were COMPLETELY fucked, nothing made sense they were COMPLETELY at odds with the Jedi shown in the Original trilogy. There are contradictions everywhere, not just with the Jedi.

I know how retarded that trilogy was, and I mean I thought I knew how retarded it was before. But then I watched all of the Plinket reviews and it kindled the fire of a new kind of hatred for that series.

But you can't just ignore them. They happened and they're canon. They're also the basis for all of the extended universe stuff that is considered canon.

Yes I can.

We managed FIFTEEN YEARS from the original Trilogy to the prequel trilogy without the latter being in the canon. THEY ARE NOT the basis of the expanded universe, that was written between Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace and Lucas ignored THE ENTIRE expanded universe!

Why should the insane money-grubbing Lucas be able to decide what is an is not canon? You think I respect him? NOPE! He has voided that.

Some copyright owner can't simply declare "this is canon" and in one stroke ruin EVERYTHING! WE have that power! The power to consider and value above what a piece of paper with copyright says.

Yep, this is argument suddenly took a turn into the realm of the cuckoo.

Lucas owns the IP, he started it. No matter how much we dislike what he did with it his say is final. Starwars belongs to him.

And I'm talking about the extended universe regarding what happened pre New Hope.

It's not cuckoo.

He owns the right to COPY this work, he does NOT own the right to force my opinion, valuation nor association of his work.

And if there was any justice then his copyright would have expired by now, 25 years after the first publication. He of course drew on works from the 1930's and 40's that had recently expired from copyright in the 1970's. Now he is disgustingly litigious.

 

[MetalDooley]

In the Ultimate X-men series Magneto reversed the earth's poles causing massive Tsunamis which killed millions of people and caused destruction on a global scale.I think that kinda puts him firmly in the actual villian category

There is so much wrong with that sentence I don't think I am going to try. Not that your wrong but that's not how the earth works.

It's a comic series about people with often insane superpowers.Do you really expect them to be scientifically accurate?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Melisande Shahrizai, from the Kushiel's Legacy novel series by Jacqueline Carey.

She's amoral, her intentions are to create a vast Empire that she and/or her children rule, but she tactfully avoids doing anything to offend the gods or her own sense of morality, and will do anything to protect the life and happiness of her son - including staying out of his life when he asks her to.

Oh, and Queen Mab from the Dresden Files. She likes to play the villainess, but I think she's actually one of the "good guys" - at least in respect to the Black Circle.

 

[BOOM headshot65]

#1- General Hummal (The Rock)

This man steals chemical warheads from a US army bunker and threatens to hit San Fransico with them if the US government doesnt give him $100,000,000. But the reason he is taking the money is to pay the familys of black ops soldiers who were killed under his command and left behind by the government. And as if this wasnt big enough, it is revealed toward the end of the movie...

Spoiler: Major plot point. Read at own risk

It turns out he was bluffing all along. He never intended to use the missiles on ANYONE, let alone innocent civilians. Of course, afew of his soldiers dont like this idea because they wanted to get thier $1,000,000 dollars for doing this mission for him. They decide to shot him and use the missiles anyway...and get absolutly destroyed by Sean Connery.

#2- Dr. Jonas Miller (Twister)

His crime? Being an ass. And thats about the only thing REALLY bad he does. The other things he does? He reverse engineers a device he helped design in the first place and his former partner had given up on[footnote]The original... [http://media.photobucket.com/image/twister%20dorothy/Wolfdemon59/twister071nm11.jpg]...And Miller's improved model [http://0.tqn.com/d/weather/1/0/J/2/-/-/Imgp2005a.jpg][/footnote]. But his worst offense? Taking corporation funding for his research *gasp*, so he could build said device, Get a whole fleet of chase vehicles and equipment [http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Twister-movie.jpg], and get millions to go out in save lives from tornados...all for the measly price that he just needs to mention his sponsers when he is interviewed by the news, and carry cameras to film his work. For this, he must be violently destroyed by having a steel girder ramed through his head and then sucked into an F5 tornado and finally having his truck blown up after falling 300 feet after being spat out by the tornado....with him still in it. :/

 

[Treblaine]

Bury all the feelings because in some odd circular logic they all lead to suffering.

Sounds like you are citing the awful awful AWFUL prequel trilogy again with Yoda's 6-degrees of separation with emotions bullshit.

No. Just god dammit NO! Ignore the Prequel Trilogy, they make no sense, never let anything that happened in them affect you impression of the series. Just forget it.

Look, the Jedi in the prequel Trilogy were COMPLETELY fucked, nothing made sense they were COMPLETELY at odds with the Jedi shown in the Original trilogy. There are contradictions everywhere, not just with the Jedi.

I know how retarded that trilogy was, and I mean I thought I knew how retarded it was before. But then I watched all of the Plinket reviews and it kindled the fire of a new kind of hatred for that series.

But you can't just ignore them. They happened and they're canon. They're also the basis for all of the extended universe stuff that is considered canon.

Yes I can.

We managed FIFTEEN YEARS from the original Trilogy to the prequel trilogy without the latter being in the canon. THEY ARE NOT the basis of the expanded universe, that was written between Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace and Lucas ignored THE ENTIRE expanded universe!

Why should the insane money-grubbing Lucas be able to decide what is an is not canon? You think I respect him? NOPE! He has voided that.

Some copyright owner can't simply declare "this is canon" and in one stroke ruin EVERYTHING! WE have that power! The power to consider and value above what a piece of paper with copyright says.

Yep, this is argument suddenly took a turn into the realm of the cuckoo.

Lucas owns the IP, he started it. No matter how much we dislike what he did with it his say is final. Starwars belongs to him.

And I'm talking about the extended universe regarding what happened pre New Hope.

It's not cuckoo.

He owns the right to COPY this work, he does NOT own the right to force my opinion, valuation nor association of his work.

And if there was any justice then his copyright would have expired by now, 25 years after the first publication. He of course drew on works from the 1930's and 40's that had recently expired from copyright in the 1970's. Now he is disgustingly litigious.

Being the IP owner and the person who made up the entire story he does have a right to tell you what is and isn't canon. He made it.

I may not like anything he's been involved with since the first 3 films, but that doesn't change the fact that they exist and are part of the canon story.

I just doesn't, no matter how much you want it to.

I'm probably not going to reply again because this has gone far enough off topic as it is.

He can say what he likes, he that alone doesn't change my opinion of the value of his latter work.

I don't think you understand, repeating that "he says it's so" argument doesn't change or refute anything I've pointed out. You realise where the term "canon" comes from? Traditions of religious Dogma, arbitrarily saying what scriptures were articles of faith and what were not. Well who are they to decide? Who is Lucas to decide?

I may fear the punishment of Copyright law but I DO NOT respect it.

 

[auron200004]

These would be good answers, but I really don't consider either of them villains either. Jaime really wasn't a villain since Catelyn Stark released him from imprisonment in Riverrun, and to me after that surpassed Tyrion to become the true "good" character among the Lannisters. And I agree with the above posters that Stannis was never meant to be a villain. In fact, as far as I've gotten in the series (later on in book 4), I'm pulling for Stannis to "win" and take the Iron Throne.

The REAL "villain" of the series is obviously Cersei, though. There is absolutely nothing likable about Cersei.

At the extreme risk of turning this into ASoIaF thread, I don't think that Cersei is the main antagonist of the series, either. Sure, she's crazy, a total *****, and super scheming, but...

Spoiler: Fifth book spoilers

Her plans are absolutely foiled by the end of the book, the only plan she seems to have at this point is: Use Robert Strong to get her out of this shitty situation. It's already been stated by just about everybody that she's going to be out of power (unless Kevan's death opens it back up for her, god help the kingdom then).

In my opinion, the human antagonist of this series is going to be Crow's Eye. This is mostly based on the prophecies Daenerys is given, though. Obviously, the true antagonists of this series are the Others, but you know, that's too simple.

 

[cojo965]

If one loosely defines an antihero as "an evil person who does good things" (if for the wrong reasons), I guess to define an "anti-villain" would be "a good person who does evil things". They would have many of the characteristics traditionally associated with a noble hero...likely a sense of honour, belief in justice, loyalty and the greater good, but they would do wrong. Either they fell from grace or have a twisted sense of right and wrong.

I guess an anti-villain would be Lawful Evil then, directly opposite Lawful Good (traditional heroes). Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil would be the domain of anti-heroes and traditional villains respectively.

By that definition, I would say Magneto qualifies as an anti-villain, as would Darth Vader, Vin Diesel in Fast & Furious franchise, anyone who is "just following orders" to do wrong, Corvo in Dishonored, "honourable thieves", assassins with a strict code, etc. I think Dexter *might* also come under this heading then, but can't decide.

I love your avatar mostly because I know where it's from.

 

[spwatkins]

Well, you kinda killed your thread in the first post with Magneto there OP.

I guess another good one, although he's nothing like Magneto, would be Gollum/Smeagol from LotR, as none of what he does is really his fault. He encounters the One Ring by accident having absolutely no idea what kind of power it wielded, and from that moment on would never be able to shake off his addiction to it. He's definitely a villain, but you can sympathise with him because of his total and pitiful lack of control over himself.

If you want to call murdering his friend who found it in order to steal it an "accident".

 

[Treblaine]

He can say what he likes, he that alone doesn't change my opinion of the value of his latter work.

I don't think you understand, repeating that "he says it's so" argument doesn't change or refute anything I've pointed out. You realise where the term "canon" comes from? Traditions of religious Dogma, arbitrarily saying what scriptures were articles of faith and what were not. Well who are they to decide? Who is Lucas to decide?

I may fear the punishment of Copyright law but I DO NOT respect it.

I know I said I wouldn't respond but I just think it's incredibly hilarious that you think you have more say in a story than it's author.

I find it sad - not hilarious - that you are such a stooge.

I have control over my OWN OPINION! It's not a "matter of fact", it's fiction. I won't conform to a crazy old man's innate and inconsistent whims.

 

[Treblaine]

It's common for children of career criminals to be taken into custody by the state. What else do you expect? They just wander the streets alone or get involved with other criminal associated of their parents? No, it's custody till foster parents are found.

Excuse me, sir, what country do you live in where being the child of a criminal is enough to get you thrown in prison as well?

Jack was not in a foster home, or an orphanage, or even a state home, he was in PRISON. Even in 1911 that wasn't acceptable.

And as we all know, being in prison means you won't have ANY association with other criminals, will it?

A civilised country. What kind of civilised country leaves children to wander the streets when their parents are taken into custody?

Not "thrown in prison" but taken into government custody. You could do with READING my posts and not skimming and conveniently assuming "custody" = "adult prison".

They weren't in any kind of prison, what kind of prison does a mother stay with her son and with no other inmates?!? They were in government custody, that is NOT THE SAME as a prison like Attica prison AND YOU KNOW IT.

Again, how does this make Ross the bad guy? They were guilty of crimes, they were all going to jail, it was a fail cop. Jack may not be old enough to be criminally responsible but he would be taken from his parents and sent to an orphanage.

Ross SAVED THEM! He was probably only ever able to get a pardon from this unrepentant group by John Marston's efforts. But Some crimes are too big to absolve. They could forgive his son and wife as accessories, but not John who it's apparent was as bad as Williamson, Javier and Dutch.

 

[Treblaine]

He can say what he likes, he that alone doesn't change my opinion of the value of his latter work.

I don't think you understand, repeating that "he says it's so" argument doesn't change or refute anything I've pointed out. You realise where the term "canon" comes from? Traditions of religious Dogma, arbitrarily saying what scriptures were articles of faith and what were not. Well who are they to decide? Who is Lucas to decide?

I may fear the punishment of Copyright law but I DO NOT respect it.

I know I said I wouldn't respond but I just think it's incredibly hilarious that you think you have more say in a story than it's author.

I find it sad - not hilarious - that you are such a stooge.

I have control over my OWN OPINION! It's not a "matter of fact", it's fiction. I won't conform to a crazy old man's innate and inconsistent whims.

LOL

I'm a STOOOOOOOOGE!

Look at me, bending over for the man and relinquishing my OPINIONS!


Haha

Oh my, you turned nutty fast. Do you burn an effigy of Lucas at a shrine, devoted to the 'one true Star Wars' that you feel was taken away from you because Lucas didn't do what you wanted?

I'd heard of these so called crazy Star Wars fans before, who foam at the mouth because they feel jilted or something. But I'd never actually met one.

Most people I've talked to who liked the original series and not the prequels, were just that. People who disliked the prequels and preferred not to watch them.... Like me.

They didn't actually deny their existence, at-least not when they weren't jesting.

Don't pass off your capitulation to Lucas' authority as "your opinion". Do you - yourself - think the prequel trilogy deserves to be canon?

Hey, YOU started a massive star wars discussion, you can't just give up when it goes where it shows you up.

"People who disliked the prequels and preferred not to watch them.... Like me. "

How is that any different from considering them IRRELEVANT?

I don't deny their existence (more LIES!) I do not consider they are worthy of being relevant to the original trilogy.

I said IGNORE, not literally deny their existence, you disingenuous charlatan.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Well, you kinda killed your thread in the first post with Magneto there OP.

I guess another good one, although he's nothing like Magneto, would be Gollum/Smeagol from LotR, as none of what he does is really his fault. He encounters the One Ring by accident having absolutely no idea what kind of power it wielded, and from that moment on would never be able to shake off his addiction to it. He's definitely a villain, but you can sympathise with him because of his total and pitiful lack of control over himself.

If you want to call murdering his friend who found it in order to steal it an "accident".

Well, he's pretty much gone the moment he sees the ring it has that much of a hold over him, so I'd put that action under all the other things he had no real control over. The real villain is the ring itself. The people who lie, steal and murder because of it's corruption are its victims.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I love your avatar mostly because I know where it's from.

You...weren't thinking of saying "No" were you?