Bethesda: Consoles to be the lead platform for Skyrim, aim to make it ?really accessible?

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Atmos Duality

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Crazy_Man_42 said:
Yeah you can have improved graphics but that doesn't "dumbed down" a game you can still have a great game even with graphics that aren't the newest and greatest.
You *can*, but IMO, Skyrim is not looking to be that game. It's too early to tell for sure, but this new development is not promising in the least.

Yeah you have a little more control with the keyboard and mouse but that doesn't mean a game is "dumbed down" it just means you have a different way of controlling things with more buttons. Actually a console player would have to be smarter because he would have less buttons to work with and that would mean that he or she would have to do more for an action that a pc player can just hit a single button for.
Except that the developer has anticipated this, and in the spirit of being "More accessible", lowered the difficulty of aiming to account for this limitation.

Even of one of my favorite games, Metroid Prime, does this with auto-targeting and camera tracking because the controls would have been quite clunky on a Gamecube controller otherwise. Metroid Prime 2 genuinely much harder than the original, mainly because the environment works to counter these advantages (enemies are much harder to get an initial lock on, and the overall game is much darker or harder to see).

Traditional gamepads have genres where they are directly superior or feel more natural than a keyboard and mouse (notably, racing games and flight simulators), but first person titles are NOT one of those.

The absolute best example of this in action is the PC version of GTA3, Vice City, or San Andreas (the console and PC versions, apart from possible controller inputs, are identical).

First, acquire a USB 12 button controller (basically, a PS2 or Xbox 360 equivalent).
Next, use the keyboard and mouse to play through a few missions. Then start those missions over and swap to the controller.
You will find the following is always true:
1) It is significantly easier to aim firearms with the mouse (even against the lock-on feature. Why? Superior camera controls. You can instantly swing around and see all your targets rather than having to press the lock button rapid until you get to all of them)
2) It is significantly easier to drive well with the controller (for obvious reasons)

There are more mathematical explanations for why it works (it involves the maximum number of vectors and inputs that the player can be expected to reasonably control at any given time) but those are a beyond the necessary explanation required here.

Irony said:
Oh boy. As soon as I saw the title of this thread I knew the PC "Master Race" would be bitching and moaning about how one of their games would be "dumbed down" or something. Cry me a river, you've still got your precious mods out there. Go play with them.
The feeling is mutual: I was waiting for someone to use the typical "PC Master Race" jab.

As a PC and Console gamer, I don't care what system the game is on; I just want the damn game to be *good* and *fun*. Instead, the industry keeps dragging everything down to one side: Current consoles. This isn't because consoles are always the superior technological platform for a particular title; it's because consoles are an easier market for business to control than PC.
This isn't a conspiracy theory; it's a very simple and proven case of economics. We're simply seeing the side-effect of business and the quest for more money (Which apparently can justify anything these days).

Bethesda COULD stop watering the gameplay mechanics down to the point that even Spoiled Special Bobby can understand which sword is better without having to do the difficult analytical task of comparing two numbers, but they won't because it will bring in more cash; even if the specific experience and gameplay is measurably INFERIOR to its predecessors.

Just to drive that point home: Oblivion was already so accessible that you could beat the entire fucking game AT CHARACTER LEVEL 2 without using *ANY* exploits, cheats, etc. That's because the entire game was scaled to your character (everything. Quest Rewards. Loot. Enemies and their equipment. Number of enemies per encounter. Their stats. Everything.).
Additionally, all quests had that mandatory "Follow-the-idiot-light" marker on your quest indicator, so you couldn't ever possibly get lost. And now Bethesda thinks it needs to be simplified from THAT?

*Back on Topic*: I found it hilarious that in the video, he talks about how the player doesn't have to manage stats, and that the game has great depth hidden in the background process. This creates a paradox in design: He claims that the game has "depth", but the player will never be made consciously aware of it.
The problem lies in this: The PLAYER is the focus upon which gameplay depth should rest. The player's conscious gameplay decisions is what gives depth meaning. By deliberately hiding it away from him/her, you are in fact, destroying the depth you worked so hard to create.
So even here, they're dumbing the experience down.
 

Woodsey

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"aim to make it ?really accessible?"

Has anyone ever gotten a positive reaction from saying this? Because the PR guys must be telling everyone to say it, and I've never seen anyone have a reaction better than, "this might not turn out terrible."
 

Twilight_guy

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Discuss? PC gamers are a bunch of elitist pricks who will be upset by this. I really see no other reason why anyone would care what its developed for. On top of that the base-less accusation of "dumbed down" is getting on my nerves. What the hell does that even mean? Other then that... meh I don't really carer what they develop on PC and consoles are mostly the same.
 

The Diabolical Biz

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So what I'm getting from this is that in an ideal world, the same game would be made twice, once for console chaps, once for PC chaps.

Not gonna happen folks, and PC people, I've seen this a lot recently, stop whinging like you're entitled to some sense of innate superiority over the console crowd when you're all in the same boat. It's like if you were both on a train, and you're putting bunting and tinsel over a regular seat and then pretending you're in first class and laughing at the poor (literally) console gamers stuck over there in their fetid second class.

Yeah, that's the best analogy I could come up with.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Hmm, I might consider buying this one on PC then, as long as my PC can run it when it comes out of course.

MiracleOfSound said:
PC gamers will get all the cool mods, so ultimately they'll end up with the better game.

Let's just hope it runs great on all platforms.
Hear Hear
 

Byere

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Hmmm... So let's see...

Apparently, they think that placing a game that's extremely high-action and top notch graphics on a console because they believe it'll be slicker and greater to play on than PCs...

They obviously never played The Last Remnant...
[/obligatory SquareEnix bashing]

OT: Personally, I don't care if they want to lead the way with consoles. It's getting released for PC on the same day and they'll still have general support as much for PC gamers as they will consoles.

This whole discussion and the whole announcement is moot...
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Sep 10, 2008
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And my desire to pre-order or even buy Skyrim has just died. Did they not see the rage, hate and general insanity created after the release of Dragon Age 2? And what did Bioware gain from their decision to "Streamline"? A slight increase in sales and the alienation of its fanbase.
 

jprf

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Making the controls usable on a controller =/= 'dumbing down,' it just means that we won't have to hold down four different buttons and break our thumbs to open the inventory. In my opinion any dumbing down you perceive is mostly just simplification of overcomplicated systems to improve the overall experience. I played both Morrowind and Oblivion on PC and as far as I'm concerned Oblivion was by far the superior game.
 

Mistress_Munchies

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I game on both PC and console and I've played through Morrowind and both the PC and XBox versions of Oblivion, as well as Daggerfall (the game before Morrowind). I don't care about better graphics or performance or even a "dumbed down" UI. What pisses me off about having any Elder Scrolls game being targeted for consoles first is that they dumbed down the quality of the game itself, turning it into just another generic fantasy RPG. Morrowind had an engaging plot, engaging NPCs, and entertaining quests (see Hainab's Pants as a prime example). I'm probably going to come off as one of those "the story makes the game" people, and I have to admit that I do tend to fall into that category, but the story is the whole point of the Elder Scrolls. Oblivion lost so much of the good storytelling that was present in Morrowind and, Hell, even back in Daggerfall. Oblivion had its moments, yes, and it was still a good game overall, but I'd come to expect a lot more from the series.

The announcement that Skyrim is going to be another console-to-PC port disappoints me not because of graphics or performance or any of that other crap. I couldn't care less. What I hate is that Bethesda will likely, once again, be dumbing down the story and not give Skyrim the kind of depth that a game in the Elder Scrolls series should have. I'm hoping this won't happen - because console gamers enjoy a good, complex story in a game as much as PC gamers do, and I don't understand why most developers seem to think that we don't - but I have a strongly sinking feeling that it will, if only because Bethesda is going to try to reach a more "accessible market".
 

internetzealot1

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"Get away from stats"

Hopefully that means my 100-Sneak thief won't be able to bump into people without them noticing anymore. That's the problem with Stealth in RPGs; getting good at it always destroys whats fun about it.

And how is a focus on consoles a surprise?
 

Ace of Spades

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Hooray, it's being designed for my platform of choice and will no doubt piss off PC gamers! What fun!
 

Ian Caronia

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Look this sounds bad, but think about how much bullshit the console community had to go through with Oblivion freezing the system every three hours. It sucked! Not the game. Oblivion was great. I mean the fact my PS3 kept freezing on me just when I'd stopped being afraid and decided not to save just yet.
_This is for the best, people. Now everyone can have a fully working-
Wait... "Really accessible"?

*clicks link*
"...We knew we wanted to make the user interface a little bit more open and available...get away from the stats and things like that."
"...get away from the stats and things like that."
"...stats and things like that."

oh... Oh... OH FUCK ME!! NO! No, this isn't happening! I lost hope with Mass Effect, but not Elder Scrolls! Not Elder Scrolls! Oh dear shitbricks! Next thing we know they'll be on the same level as Bioware and saying Call of Duty is an RPG because you "put points into things".

*takes in deep breath* No... Gotta calm down.. I'm sure it'll be alright. I'm sure nothing will be changed...too much

V_V
 

similar.squirrel

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I don't get it. Wouldn't it be easier to concentrate on a PC version and have a team tweak it for consoles? That'd just be a matter of scaling down a more complete version. Still, I'll be getting it for the 360 seeing as it's my only gaming device.
 

Ranorak

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Ace of Spades said:
Hooray, it's being designed for my platform of choice and will no doubt piss off PC gamers! What fun!
I was going to post a serious post about how Oblivion still controlled perfectly fine with it being a "dumbed down" port. But after all the bitching the pc gamers seem to do, I can just say the following:

THIS!
*high fives Xbox users*
 

drizztmainsword

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linwolf said:
drizztmainsword said:
linwolf said:
No that is a horrible thing, it makes me have less control over the game and that removes my fun.
It doesn't give you less control. You have the same amount of control, you just don't need it.
Is the I item I just found better than the one I am using hiding stats makes this question harder to answer

Again all horrible.
Why press three buttons when one could do fine, it takes extra time and gives no benefit.
You're missing the point. A deep interface uses that one button instead of three.
Pause the game enter menu enter inventory that is three buttons. enter inventory by a hotkey is one.
I prefer to remember three hotkeys than having to use three key every time I have to use one of those menus.
Even in Oblivion's rather bad menu system, it was only ever two clicks/buttons to get to any of the menu screens. If you were constantly going back and forth from one screen to another, it was one button press.

And that's not what I'm talking about in terms of "deep interfaces." It's the combining of multiple functions into one button press. Look at the "X" button in Uncharted 2. Jumping, clambering, vaulting, climbing. All through one button.

And one button to do multiple things have gotten me killed countless times in games, trying to hit the enemy but instead opening the chest behind him, trying to open a door but instead end up talking to the npc standing in front of it. All the time while having tons of keys that function could have be at instead. I have never thought that one button having two separate function have help the game it always end up being an annoyances I have to learn to work around.
What game has mapped the "attack" and "interact" functions to the same button? And are you seriously suggesting that there should be different buttons for "talk to NPC" and "open door"? Do you realize what an incredible usability nightmare that is? Why should a player have to remember two different forms of an "interact with object" function? I have never heard of a game that does this.
I was thinking on Diablo 2 there have been more than one time where I was happy slaughtering enemies when my mouse hit a chest and my character ran into the middle of the mob to open it. And about the "talk to NPC" and "open door" I have had a game put an npc in a door so I had to reload a save to get around it. Why not let me give the commands its own buttons.
Having streamlined interface is all nice and dandy until you find something that the developer didn't think would happen then it becomes all for a mild annoyances to a pain in the ass to work around.
I'll grant the Diablo bit, that has happened to me a few times. But your other example still isn't based in a realistic view of customizable controls. You're saying you want a dev to give you the option to map EVERYTHING an "interact" function interacts with to its own separate button? That's never going to happen in a million years, and it's a ridiculous request.
 

newwiseman

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I like the outrage. It's like they don't realize we'll still get to have our modding tools, and if anything a console sku port will be more stable.

Less crashing, still moddable, and easier to use my XBOX 360 controller on my PC = WIN in my book.
 

Nihilm

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Twilight_guy said:
Discuss? PC gamers are a bunch of elitist pricks who will be upset by this. I really see no other reason why anyone would care what its developed for. On top of that the base-less accusation of "dumbed down" is getting on my nerves. What the hell does that even mean? Other then that... meh I don't really carer what they develop on PC and consoles are mostly the same.
Well....... first of all developing for consoles and porting over to PC, makes no sense.
Much more sense is made when it is developed for PC with consoles in mind, because then you avoid all the hardware isssues that come with different PC setups, dumbing down means that the game starts treating you like your an idiot, for example in morrowind you did not have a huge red arrow point where to go, sure it was much more comfortable in oblivion with a huge red arrow, but most of the time I did feel screaming stop showing me where to go, i can figure this out for myself, then i modded out the arrow and fast travel system and lived happily ever after until i realised that oblivion ultimately sucked compared to morrowind.

yes I am a PC elitist btw, proud of it infact, the witcher series FTW!!!!! I'm out.