Bethesda Doesn't Enjoy Being "Forced" into Mojang Lawsuit

[Farotsu]

So, to get rid of all this nonsense the trademark law should have a clause that allows the owner of the trademark to make a compromise WHEN they see fit. It's theirs afterall isn't it?

 

[Richard Eis]

If you can't tell the difference between two completely different games because one word happens to match only one of the words in the other, then you shouldn't be playing technically challenging games, or handling sharp objects. This says more about what the law thinks of the average citizen than anything else.

Bethseda are not being "forced", this isn't a precedent, it's an embarrassment and the fallout will only damage their reputation. You don't HAVE to sue EVERY time. Just sue the next guy that tries it.

However i still completely blame the fact that you can randomly copyright a known word anyway for causing this.

 

[Phishfood]

And yet somehow "Transmorphers", "The Terminators", and "Snakes on a Train" can exist, movies with single titles exist like "Legend", "Avatar", "Cars", and "Up", and we have single-word games like "Quake", "Doom", "Rage", "Halo", "Infamous", "Uncharted", and "Limbo".

I don't see anyone getting confused by the video game "Doom" and the video game "Countdown to Doom" or "Resistance: Fall of Man" and "Operation Flashpoint: Resistance".

*sigh*.

Heres a clue for you. Bethesda/zenimax are taking mojang to court. They have not WON their case. They have not even made their case. Half the people in this thread have missed that very important point.

B/Z have to fight this case. If they do not they weaken their defense if someone DOES rip off their brand. Yes, there is potential for confusion. We all agree the chance of confusion is incredibly small, but it is not 0. Hence, they go to court. Likely they will fight it out for a day or two and then the judge will say its all ridiculous and scrolls will be left alone.

After an accident I went to court. My solicitors wanted X*, their insurance wanted to pay Y*. 5 minutes later I walked out with (X+Y/2)*. Everyone knew that was what would happen going in. Its nothing to do with being vindictive, its nothing to do with picking on anyone. Plain and simple, its what the system is FOR.

B/Z make their case. M makes their case. An impartial third party(s) decides which case has most merit. For all we know "Countdown to Doom" was in court for a month before it was okayed to be released with that name.

Now, if either party gets petty and starts demaning $20M in compensation for this, THEN I will take sides.

* No, I'm not telling you what X and Y were.

 

[rustybroomhandle]

Bethseda are not being "forced", this isn't a precedent, it's an embarrassment and the fallout will only damage their reputation. You don't HAVE to sue EVERY time. Just sue the next guy that tries it.

However i still completely blame the fact that you can randomly copyright a known word anyway for causing this.

Did you say... "fallout" ?

Anyhoo, trademarks are usually more than just the word/s, they often have imagery attached. If you look at the RAGE trademark, they specify there that it's specifically "RAGE" with the artsy A.

If they put the Scrolls logo next to any Elder Scrolls logo, they have decide if there's any confusion there for the average pillock.

My 2c on whether the products will get mixed up:

Scrolls is a long way from even being a playable game, and won't be available in retail stores when it is released. And as for consumer confusion in digital retail media - I doubt it since Scrolls will be a free-to-play game with the option to buy booster packs.

So if a consumer downloads and installs Scrolls by accident, they would soon know it's not the one in the snowy land with the big dragons, but the trading card game. Mojang don't gain a sale, and Bethesda don't lose a sale.

I don't believe Bethesda really had to sue. They have to defend their trademarks when they are being infringed upon, true - but I have a hard time seeing how this puts them in any danger at all.

 

[Aegixx]

Morrowind.
Oblivion.
Skyrim.
Who even refers to it as "The Elder Scrolls" any more?

A Google trend search shows greater usage of "Skyrim" compared to "Elder Scrolls".
Now note that Skyrim is not a dictionary word, while both Elder and Scrolls are.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I'd say people being paranoid fuckheads hating on a fairly small time guy who lucked out on a largely hobby project and hit it big. Then they expect him to spend EVERY WAKING HOUR on that project even when he wishes to do other projects or just wants to take his fucking mother on a nice vacation now that he actually has the money to do so!

I swear the minecraft community has largely ended up as the shittest of the game communities up there with those of: COD, Halo, WoW... maybe some others but I can't recall anymore this exact second.

People need to remove their heads from their asses.

I completely agree. The only community that could possibly be considered worse is that of LoL, HoN and DotA.

 

[Danny91]

What really gets to me is what Mojang wants to have trademarked for themselves in terms of the word "scrolls." I cant remember the exact literature, but it seemed to be just about everything under the sun, from movies to games to t-shirts; giving themselves an insane amount of room on the trademark; whereas Zenimax are just hold a trademark over the term "scroll" featuring in the title of a computer game in the fantasy genre.

It seems Notch has also been quite unprofessional throughout these events, which doesn't help legitimize any case he has.

 

[rustybroomhandle]

What really gets to me is what Mojang wants to have trademarked for themselves in terms of the word "scrolls." I cant remember the exact literature, but it seemed to be just about everything under the sun, from movies to games to t-shirts; giving themselves an insane amount of room on the trademark; whereas Zenimax are just hold a trademark over the term "scroll" featuring in the title of a computer game in the fantasy genre.

I refer you to text from USPTO trademark serial number 77189794:
"Word Mark THE ELDER SCROLLS
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: pre-recorded CDs and DVDs featuring music; Motion picture films featuring fantasy games"

and also 77189874:
"Word Mark THE ELDER SCROLLS
Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Clothing, namely, T-shirts, shirts, sweatshirts, fleece pullovers; headwear, namely, hats. FIRST USE: 20050400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050400"

It's fairly standard practice. And presumably they don't want people selling unauthorised T-Shirts etc. that cash in on their trademarks.

 

[Wicky_42]

As a wise man said on a related thread:

[ quote snip ]

So explain Metal Gear Solid and Gears of War?

Condemned Criminal Origins and
Dragon Age Origins?

Mass Effect and
Fear Effect?

Call of Duty
Call of Cthullu: Dark Corners of The Earth
Call of Juarez

THAT is me looking it up, all these uncontested examples, and precedents show that Zenimax are talking out of their rectum. Remember, Notch IS offering to compromise by pinning Scrolls as a part of a larger title, but they won't accept that to spite all the precedents set before. I'm on a roll here, you can't stop me!

Infinite Space
Dead Space
Dead Rising
Advent Rising

COD: Black Ops
BLACK (2006 game)

MOTORstorm
Forza MOTORsport

Fallout New Vegas
Rainbow Six Vegas

RED faction
RED dead redemption

See how much bullshit it is to claim that if you copyright a name then you copyright every individual word that makes up that name.

My favourite one though is Zenimax's own game: "Rage" considering there is a trademark for the names "Streets of Rage", "Rage Racer" and "Primal Rage" yet they haven't sued Zenimax. They'd have to sue each other first!

If they said 'yes' to 'Scrolls' they'd be forced to say yes to 'The Old Scrolls', 'The Eldest Scrolls', 'The Scrolls of Elder'

What nonsense. Those clearly mean the exact same thing. Scrolls is clearly distinct. Or at least as distinct as Rage is from all the other games with "rage" in their title.

Infinite Space vs Dead Space vs Dead Rising vs Advent Rising - come on, if that was no issue then what the shit, Zenimax?

 

[bbad89]

(damn right you remove the troll accusations, that itself is trolling)

snip

The only think Mojang is guilty of is assuming the little guy will get fair treatment. They reality is you need to be RICH enough to afford a massive legal department to fight these redundant claims.

Way to show some decency there, yes, I removed my accusations of you being a troll, because it was rude, but no, just throw that in my face.

"The Little Guy" is getting fair treatment. Should Bethesda just give up on pursuing it's trademark just because Mojang isn't as big as it? No, of course not, that would be completely retarded.

Mojang decided to trademark the word Scrolls for it's use, Bethesda is forced, by U.S. Trademark law, to contest that, or it loses it's trademark. Were this Microsoft or E.A. who had tried to trademark 'Scrolls', no-one would bat an eye when Bethesda/Zenimax went after them, but for some reason people think Mojang deserves a free pass? No, sorry, that isn't how it works.

How could Zenimax give up pursuing their trademark, they were never pursuing it in the first place. There trademark is for "The Elder Scrolls". And yes they should not vindictively hunt down upstart indie developers while they themselves are guilty of ding the same thing with "Rage" and "Streets of Rage".

Bethesda/Zenimax are NOT FORCED TO DO A THING!

It is a bare faced lie to suggest that the trademark "The Elder Scrolls" is void simply because another trademark uses one of the words from their Trademark. Why are you repeating this lie?

"no-one would bat an eye when Bethesda/Zenimax went after them"

I would do more than bat an eyelid, I'd be amazed that two heavy-weights would go to court over such a frivolous issue. It makes sense big guys bullying the small one with their puny legal powers, but nor major corps. And don't be so presumptive that I would say such attempts are not bullying. It's wrong to hit someone vindictively, it's WORSE to hit someone much smaller than you.

"Mojang deserves a free pass"

Yes. Just like EVERYONE ELSE gets a "free pass" does he not have the freedom to use word from an English Dictionary?

Just like Techland is free to trademark 'Dead Island' without fearing Capcom suing using their 'Dead Rising' trademark.

You are the one being unreasonable here.

It's called PRECEDENT. If someone else can, EVERYONE CAN. Prepare for the Eldest Scrolls, etc. In the eyes of the law, there's no varying levels of similarity, and no difference between "Scrolls" and "Eldest Scrolls". They HAVE to defend it, or lose their trademark. And don't say Notch is a little guy, because THAT'S a bare-faced lie.

 

[Rack]

You know what you are saying is complete lie?

In no way would or could Mojang be able to stop Zenimax from continuing to use their "The Elder Scrolls" trademark. I have spent more than 5 minutes looking into this. You clearly haven't as you call this COPYRIGHT trolling when it is Trademark, you clearly don't even know what you are talking about.

Trademarking "The Elder Scrolls" does not give Zenimax right over the name "Scrolls"

Also the inverse, a trademark of "Scrolls" does not give Mojang the right over "The Elder Scrolls".

Picky picky, it was mentioned several times that this comes under international copyright law so the best reason I can see to call it trademark trolling is that it's alliterative. More of a minor mistake than getting "lie" mixed up with "fact". Because if there's a dispute over ownership of the name (which there totally would be if Bethesda just let Mojang have exclusive rights to the word Scrolls) that would give Mojang the right to get Skyrim pulled off the shelves while the lawyers fought it out. Yeah Bethesda would almost certainly win but that would do little to ease the pain of losing several millions of sales from the disruption of Skyrim's worldwide release.

 

[rustybroomhandle]

Infinite Space vs Dead Space vs Dead Rising vs Advent Rising - come on, if that was no issue then what the shit, Zenimax?

How about "Solar" and "Sins of a Solar Empire"?

that would give Mojang the right to get Skyrim pulled off the shelves while the lawyers fought it out

Heh, lolwut? Pure fiction, sir. Plus I doubt Notch would want to do that since he's going to likely be first in line to pick up his copy of Skyrim.

 

[Rack]

Infinite Space vs Dead Space vs Dead Rising vs Advent Rising - come on, if that was no issue then what the shit, Zenimax?

Mojang: We're gonna call our game Scrolls, and we're trademarking the term so no-one else can use it.
Zenimax: Le ****? We're not just going to recall Skyrim, we were using the name first, we need to maintain the right to use it.
Mojang: Waaah! Guys! They're picking on us!
Community: Beffezda R azzholez! Boicott nao!

 

[Furioso]

"We wanted to end things in a friendly way where we met them half-way," said Markus "Notch" Persson.

Ugh, no he did not, he offered to change it to "Scrolls: (insert subtitle)" which doesn't address the problem at all, Notch is being just as silly as Bethesda on this one

Actually trademarking a longer name would be better I think.

No, because it doesn't fix the issue, the scrolls part, and if anything it makes it worse, if they called it Scrolls: Eternia or something fantasy-ish like that, and if I didn't know about the actual scrolls game, I would think they were talking about an upcoming elder scrolls, since it's exactly how they title their games, but without the elder part

Really?

If it's OK for "GEARS of War" considering "Metal GEAR Solid" already exists.

Zenimax doesn't own ALL use of the word "Scrolls". THAT has been established with when the Edge Games lawsuit was thrown out and I believe the plaintiff got fined.

Don't bullshit me. There is no way you are dumb enough to assume it is an Elder Scrolls game if it is just "without the elder part".

Would you do the same with Gears of War?? Assume it is a Spin off from the Metal Gear franchise?

Or assume "Dead Island" was a sequel to "Dead Rising". No. No one does.

Gears of War sounds much farther away from Metal Gear Solid then Elder Scrolls: ... to Scrolls: ... and to a casual gamer who doesn't know much about the elder scrolls or scrolls they could easily assume that they were in a similar franchise

 

[RemuValtrez]

When I first heard about this I shook my head at Bethesda. Which is surprising even for me as I am, overall, a fanboy of The Elder Scrolls. But when it comes down to something as complex as trademark laws, I just don't know what to think. I can see both sides of the matter.

Buuuuut I think the fact that one potential reason is that people could be confused that it is a part of the series or franchise is just silly. Do people not look things up and just buy them right off the bat? Wait no. Don't answer that.

I just hope this gets settled -gently- so there are no major repercussions to either company.

 

[SinisterGehe]

They need to follow American laws as much as anyone else outside America needs to. .

Might want to rephrase that.

Like how? I am sorry but my limited English skills (Because I am not native speaker) along with my dyslexia makes it hard for me to see anything wrong with that sentence.

Can you tell me specifically whats wrong with it, then I will be glad to fix it then, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

The way that is phrased it sounds like america can enforce its sovereign rule all over the world. You know, the old "world police" allegations.

Really, US based intellectual-property law is only enforced globally because each country agrees to it and ratifies it, not just because it is American law.

Talk about world police.
Not every country follows the US trademark laws... Just pointing that out.

 

[rustybroomhandle]

Infinite Space vs Dead Space vs Dead Rising vs Advent Rising - come on, if that was no issue then what the shit, Zenimax?

Mojang: We're gonna call our game Scrolls, and we're trademarking the term so no-one else can use it.
Zenimax: Le ****? We're not just going to recall Skyrim, we were using the name first, we need to maintain the right to use it.
Mojang: Waaah! Guys! They're picking on us!
Community: Beffezda R azzholez! Boicott nao!

Please stop using this blatantly false argument. Mojang have every right to trademark Scrolls. There's no game called Scrolls, so their trademark prevents you from releasing your own game called Scrolls. The trademark for Scrolls is not there to prevent anyone from using the word Scrolls and they have no power over "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim".

Nobody's trying to get Bethesda to recall Skyrim. Take your dumbshit strawman and shove a creeper up his arse.

Scrolls is not the same as "The Elder Scrolls" or "Scroll Party", or "Scroll Up The Page And Read the Damn Discussion".

 

[Daveman]

Maybe Notch should just pick a less dull, generic name?

 

[minimacker]

I don't get why Mojang doesn't just add a word or two, so there is a clear difference. In terms of court proceedings, Bethesda makes a great point. You throw a little leeway legally, and it can fuck up future cases from then on out. So yeah, while it may seem trivial and childish, it does have its place here. I'm sure it will be resolved pretty quickly and without much court interaction.

Notch actually offered to add a sub-title, like Scrolls: The Metallic Bucket. But apparently, it wasn't valid.