Betrayal

SAMAS

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craddoke said:
SAMAS said:
craddoke said:
Sadly, this particular sin is not limited to video games. If any movie, television show, commercial, music video, or ring tone introduces more than one character/voice, I immediately assume that one of them is going to betray the other. If one of those characters/voices is the mentor of the other ... well, it's usually not worth watching/listening any further.
That's not Genre Savvy, that's being a pessimist.
Well, I will take pessimism with +50% accuracy over optimism any day.

Examples: Any James Bond, Bourne, Avatar, Eternal Sunshine, Memento, Lost, V, FlashForward, etc. ad nauseum - I was kidding about music videos and ring tones. I should have added novels.
Your numbers are wrong. There are two outcomes, but the odds are not 50-50.

As for me, I try not to expect anything until I can see it coming. Because acting jaded only sucks the fun outta everything.

Besides, not all betrayals are equal. Some do it for greed, others out of a sense of duty to a loved one. Sometimes they have good reasons, others are for dumb ones (in-universe). Some see the error of their ways and redeem themselves (some even survive their redemption), others come to sad ends. Some just lose everything.

Complaining about betrayal in a story is like complaining about shotguns in an FPS. It's not that it's done, it's how.
 

Dr_Steve_Brule

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Shjade said:
Dr_Steve_Brule said:
King Kupofried said:
Sorta makes you wonder why they didn't take the time to put in some crisp fresh lettuce instead, since there are people who like that, and there are those who lose their appetite when they find their burger with an old wilted plant hidden under the bun.
Maybe everyone should stop telling a man who's picky about his lettuce to tell you what he thinks about your new favorite burger when you know it's usually served with sub par salad.
Yay exhausting metaphors!
You're missing the point.
Fine, you want your lettuce fresh, I don't have a problem with that, but you can't judge the entire burger just from the lettuce perspective. The lettuce is not the main focus here. Even if you take it out, it's still a very good burger.
Yes, you should pay less for it, but it's still a good burger.

I think I just crossed the metaphor limit.
I like where this metaphor is going.

Okay, so you've got your burger shack with its various additions and condiments and you've got three customers. One customer just wants meat - he doesn't really care about the extras as long as the meat is good. One customer is even easier to please - he'll be satisfied as long as any part of the burger is worthwhile. One customer wants the total package - if the bun's sweaty and gross or the lettuce is spoiled or the tomato's gone bad, the ketchup's just water that drools onto your hands, any of that, will obviously have a negative effect on the burger as a whole and lessen his enjoyment of it as a result.

Judging a game with both single- and multiplayer modes based on its single-player experience, assuming the two modes are based on the same mechanics (a game that plays like an FPS in single-player and an RTS in multiplayer wouldn't really work for this as they are, for most intents and purposes, completely different games rather than the same game but with additional players) is asking for the burger, the meat of it, to be good. If the extras (multiplayer) are good too, awesome! That makes it an even better burger, well worth the price of nomnomming. If the extras are crap, eh, you're still full and the meat was well-cooked. Maybe better to buy when the shack's having its weekend special deal for half-off on burgers. -- This obviously doesn't apply to multiplayer games - games that either do not have a single-player mode at all or in which the single-player is, at best, a framework to introduce you to the multiplayer. If there's a single-player campaign, you aren't playing a multiplayer game. You are playing a game with a multiplayer option. That the multiplayer is more polished than the single-player does not make the game a multiplayer game; it makes it a game in which the multiplayer is the only part worth playing because having other people around compensates for the otherwise unsatisfying gameplay. (Left 4 Dead/Left 4 Dead 2 are difficult to classify as the single-player and multiplayer games are...the same game. Except in one you have idiotic bots and in the other you have players. I might be inclined to label that a multiplayer game given the bots qualify - barely - as "players" even in the single-player mode; you can't really play it alone unless you mod it to be able to save yourself or you remove the special infected, either of which would dramatically alter the game. Difficult to judge.)

Judging a game with single- and multiplayer modes based solely on the multiplayer experience is customer #2, the guy who'll accept anything burger-shaped as long as something about it is good. Everything inside the bun might be shit, but damn that bun is nice - sold! If more than one thing in the burger is good then it must be a completely awesome burger, right? Or so it would seem, given this customer has grown accustomed to devouring a lot of crap that resembles hamburger given his extremely high tolerance for low-grade meat and expired condiments masked by excellent bread. -- Again, doesn't apply to MP-only games using the above reasoning.

Customer #3 rarely eats anything and weighs seventy pounds. He plays Portal, Starcraft and Thief and only occasionally deigns to speak with anyone who plays with anything else, most often to inform them of what their chosen games lack. He is unlikely to live for much longer for reasons of malnutrition...or so the doctors would have him believe. However, Customer #3 is far too savvy to be fooled by this sort of misinformation.

You see, Customer #3 is well aware of the global conspiracy amongst the world's most successful game developers, movie producers and licorice merchants to enslave the masses and do away with those too enlightened to manipulate into assisting with their diabolical plans. If pressed he might admit that this is the real reason he partakes of so few forms of electronic recreation or processed foods, knowing what he does about the subliminal signals sent out by the former and the nano-machinery embedded in the latter, a pairing with the synergistic purpose of turning a living, breathing, thinking human being into little more than a blind consumer, a slave to join the growing chain of bodies wrapped around a corrupt core of single-minded pursuits guided by the unseen hand of a council spawned in the shadowed crevices sheltered by the facade called Capitalism. The evidence of waning creativity in the world's gaming is in actuality evidence of once-creative minds being drowned by suppressive influences, silently ground into dust by the unceasing pressure of a massive ever-present will not their own forcing innovation from their thoughts and replacing it with sex, bullets and betrayal. Customer #3 knows the truth: the greatest betrayal is hardly those we can see, these idiotic hand-puppets propped up as obvious targets so clear we can mark them for death long before they physically earn their imminent murders. They are a smokescreen shrouding the overthrow from within, the spirits we thought so independent and critical, so keen in observation of a morbidly predictable world that they never think to observe their own gradual self-destruction.

Customer #3 knows that we are the conductors of our own evolution into oblivion and he refuses to play that music any longer. He will not compromise. He will not accept a weapon firing at his very being in the guise of a half-finished game with a purposely addictive and competitive goal, an obvious trap to snare those with potentially threatening urges to lash out in a rebellious fashion, a pre-emptively cast net grabbing up those who could grow into a dangerous factor if ever they realized the true darkness growing in the world all around them, within them, indeed created by they themselves in walking the path set out before them without question. Customer #3 is the future, the last hope we have of surviving this deepening marsh of mediocrity and vanishing expectations.

He also enjoys Swedish Fish.
Hmmm.
Very long, yet has a point.
The real argument is whether you would compromise and pay the full price for the burger, OR you wont and therefore do one of the following-
1. Wait for the burger to cost less
2. Wont buy the burger at all

Did I nail it on this one?
 

greeneggsnoham

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I have a theory as to why so many games use the same tired old things over and over. Rather than make a list of all the tiresome video game plot and character developments, I'll explain.

1) The obvious reason is that in many many cases, games are developed to showcase a new technical 'thing' rather than a driving need to express an opinion or tell a story. Therefore, writing is very low priority, and is often just something done by the production team rather than someone with an actual story idea. It's like expecting every house and building to be a work of art, when in most cases the construction team has more input than an architect.

A writer will gather and reflect on experience and life and then write about it. A game developer is inspired by new technology. It's a bit like "Hey! Look at this eBook reader! I'm going to write a book that makes use of its cool screen!"

Movies are a funny in-between genre. There are movies out there that are 'built' rather than written, and are more about showing new cool things in movie making rather than telling a story. Think of that craptastic movie that everyone loved with the blue aliens as an example. Or that one with the big robots who could change into cars. Shyte story, but nifty technology = blockbuster. On the other hand, there are plenty of movies that tell stories too.

2) The second reason is that 99% of the games out there are made because it's time for a new installment. TV, movies, books, and games run out of ideas for story when they've been forced to write with the same characters for 10 years. Some manage to do something original, but most don't. Even that yellow animated american family is pretty dull now.

3) Writing by committee. Nabokov didn't have to get a team of writers, production managers, level designers, marketers, investors etc to agree on Lolita. Trying to satisfy that many people with that broad of a range of needs or interests results in sticking to safe things.

There are games out there with pretty good writing. However, I think it's a bit unfair to judge all games by their story content. Some just aren't meant to be about the story. I just wish those games would recognize that from the outset and just drop the story altogether Left4Dead did a great job of this in my mind. Instead of trying to come up with a complex plot and deep characters (and choosing one to betray you) they focused on making entertaining dialog and letting the setting and gameplay do the entertaining.
 

Zersy

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It would be cool if the player was the one doing the betraying rather then getting betrayed.

Just think of what vibe that would give. "You just went through a intense level with NPC or perhaps 3 NPC's that seemed to be your best mates throughout the entire game, and just when you are all taking a break, you pull your pistol out and just shoot them all, perhaps even leave the last one crawling on the floor while you explain why or just leave them to be killed by the enemy as you abandon them"

Really, we've all betrayed someone in real life why not do it in games ? (No Multiplayer comments please)
 

greeneggsnoham

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To those above talking about hamburgers and lettuce I would say that if the restaurant said up front that this burger has no lettuce, and then didn't put any in, then people would be less likely to say that the burger sucked because the lettuce wasn't fresh.

Think of some of the most played ham... I mean games of all time. Counterstrike is an example - where's the story there? There ain't one really, and nobody cared. No characters reviewing the plot for you every 10 minutes. No plot either. They gave you a bunch of guns, a bunch of levels, and said "Have fun storming the castle!"

Where games like Modern War etc go wrong is trying to insert story in a game that doesn't need it. If what you want to make is a really good cheese burger, recognize that from the start and don't decide that it has to have a soggy piece of tomato stuck in there too. If your target audience wants guns, dust, explosions, dust, vehicles and more dust, then give them that and stop sticking poorly written stories in too.
 

greeneggsnoham

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unknowncognito - "It would be cool if the player was the one doing the betraying rather then getting betrayed."

There are games out there like that. Bioware's Dragon Age Origins gave you the ability to betray many of your NPC friends, as well as some of them betraying you. You can also cozy up with some of them to prevent them from betraying you.
 

J-Alfred

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Yeah, in Modern Warfare 2 i predicted the Shepherd betrayal literally for all the reasons Yahtzee said; stilted speech, caring too much about the data you've gathered, the fact that he demands the data before he'll save you. I was literally yelling at the screen during the whole cut scene "don't you dare, shepherd, don't you dare" and then he did. bastard.
 

singing_pigs

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I'm getting a bit tired of this "multiplayer is the same as single player but with more people" thing Yahtzee keeps throwing around. That's just not true at all. If you had a bunch of friends around and you were trading off the controller for the single player mode that would be one thing. But when you're all playing against or with each other it's often COMPLETELY different. There are totally different game design philosophies that go into making the multiplayer aspect of a game. How are people going to react to each other? How will the game evolve by throwing so many people into the mix? How can you encourage/discourage teamwork? There's a lot of mob-mentality style psychology that goes into it that can often be fascinating.

I'm surprised that you, Yahtzee, who seem to have such a firm grasp on game design at its core don't understand this. Multiplayer might have the same controls and mechanics but it's often completely different design. It's fine that you don't like multiplayer and just want to review games based on their single player, I don't care. Just don't pretend that the two are the same thing.
 

nightwolf667

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RJ Dalton said:
As a writer, I consciously avoid betrayal plot twists for this very reason. It can be done very well, but the trope lends itself to a very particular type of story that puts more limits on the direction I can take it than I feel comfortable with. There's so much baggage involved in betrayal - some of which Yahtzee spoke of in this article - that it's like a dead albatross hanging around my neck (obscure literary reference - ten points to the first person who gets it).
That would be The Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. It's not that obscure a reference given how often the albatross pops up in modern day popular culture. But given that I'm a lit major I'll take that one as a freebie, no points required. (If someone else already got to it first.)

I think the basic problem with betrayal is that a good one, one that's done well, one that really makes the gamer feel betrayed, usually ends up with the masses feeling personally betrayed by the actions of the character and then they turn around and ***** the game out for being bad. All because it hurt their feelings. A successful betrayal is one that a player doesn't see coming and the problem with that (return to the above) is that most people don't like it when a game outsmarts them. (The usually terrible writing in video games not withstanding and the masses being unable to recognize good writing when it comes along also not withstanding.) So, you get the standard, cliched hand holding and obvious signs to tell the gamer that this person is going to betray them so that they don't get to attached. It can also be chocked up to bad writing. (Again, no shortage of that in the video game industry.)

Betrayals, because of how commonly they occur, are extremely hard to execute.
 

UltimatheChosen

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Baiten Kaitos was one of the few games that had a truly surprising betrayal. I don't think anybody could have expected that
The main character was the mole, and would become a major villain for a while
.
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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Dr_Steve_Brule said:
The real argument is whether you would compromise and pay the full price for the burger, OR you wont and therefore do one of the following-
1. Wait for the burger to cost less
2. Wont buy the burger at all

Did I nail it on this one?
The argument really seems to be more about whether the burger is worth full price or not. Or even worth eating. I'm sure anyone interested in a burger at all would probably pick it up if the price dropped low enough even if they've heard bad things about it, assuming they're hungry, but some customers are arguing that despite flaws these burgers with soiled bits in them are worth the menu price simply because you have got to try these buns they are seriously awesome.

It's only marginally different from your layout, though, so eh, close enough.
 

blackjaw1

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Veldt Falsetto said:
blackjaw1 said:
Veldt Falsetto said:
FPS devs should just not make singleplayer anymore
I've actually been saying this for quite a long while, mainly because there hasn't been a good single player FPS since like 1998. Well, Painkiller was good. And I did like the first Far Cry and HL2. But generally speaking they're all mostly really bad with the MP being the reason people buy it. There's nothing you can do anymore in terms of innovation in FPS single player. Sure Crysis was gorgeous, but it wasn't actually a very good game apart from that.
I'm liking Far Cry 2 (though it does have it's problems) and I count Metroid Prime as FPS which just about pops into my top 10 games so while Singleplayer FPS does have it's place, people shouldn't feel the need to add a bad story to weigh down a decent multiplayer game. I played the latest Shadowrun and while it wasn't a great game and had no singleplayer (I felt it could have had a pretty good one tbf) it had tutorials and then was just multiplayer. I don't think popular FPS (especially CoD) do either well but simply scrapping the singleplayer and perfecting the core mechanics , it could work well, though I wouldn't pay £40 a year then an added £40 for the game itself if it was just multiplayer, I don't think people would and as the xbox has a bigger community and us westerners eat this crap, it's not gonna change.
Ah, yes I forgot about FC 2. I did like FC 2 actually, even though it was pretty repetitive in terms of missions, but it was still fun. I honestly find COD4 to be everything is wrong with modern day FPS games, though I did play the multiplayer for awhile and had fun with it. I've never really played the Metroid Prime series as I am mostly a PC gamer though I do own a Gamecube that gathers dust in my corner. I should check them out.

But still, to me, there's nothing new that can be done with FPS gameplay. It's all about environments now, which is why I love the STALKER series and Metro 2033. Horrendously bad translation and voice acting can't even get in the way of my love of the first STALKER game. Call of Pripyat is pretty good, didn't play Clear Sky.

GET OUT OF HERE STALKER!
 

blindthrall

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I just got to the twist in Modern Warfare. It makes no fucking sense, so at least it was surprising. And there's a complete lack of believable motive, no jury in the world would convict. I hope the rest of the game gets better.

The thing is though, plenty of great games have had integral betrayals, like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. I keep waiting for the G-man to do it. And who can forget "Don't trust the skull" from Planescape?
 

FoolKiller

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Mr Ink 5000 said:
Second Sight? I forgot all about that awesome game, I may have to dig it out
I'm so happy that other people actually played this great game. How could I ever forget the wonderfulness that was this game (albeit with slightly wonky controls)?

And he is correct that it was one of the best plot twists in any game ever.
 

RJ Dalton

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nightwolf667 said:
That would be The Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. It's not that obscure a reference given how often the albatross pops up in modern day popular culture. But given that I'm a lit major I'll take that one as a freebie, no points required. (If someone else already got to it first.)

I think the basic problem with betrayal is that a good one, one that's done well, one that really makes the gamer feel betrayed, usually ends up with the masses feeling personally betrayed by the actions of the character and then they turn around and ***** the game out for being bad. All because it hurt their feelings. A successful betrayal is one that a player doesn't see coming and the problem with that (return to the above) is that most people don't like it when a game outsmarts them. (The usually terrible writing in video games not withstanding and the masses being unable to recognize good writing when it comes along also not withstanding.) So, you get the standard, cliched hand holding and obvious signs to tell the gamer that this person is going to betray them so that they don't get to attached. It can also be chocked up to bad writing. (Again, no shortage of that in the video game industry.)

Betrayals, because of how commonly they occur, are extremely hard to execute.
You are the first. Probably the only one, too, given how often I get quoted.

I don't buy your argument at all, primarily because I think a good betrayal is one that you do see coming if you're paying attention, and one that if you do miss it the first time, when you go back and play it again, you realize it. When there is no possible way that you can see it coming, you end up feeling more cheated, because you are betrayed for no apparent reason.

SPOILER ALERT!!!

For example, in Deus Ex, the defection of Paul comes as no surprise to anyone who's paying attention. If you actually check up on things and pay attention to relationships between characters, you should be able to recognize that he's already working with the NSF by the time you meet him in the subway train at level 3 (Hell's Kitchen, the first time). Furthermore, the betrayal of your character by UNATCO should also come as no surprise to anyone who's paying attention and it should be obvious that such a thing is a possibility, again, before you begin level 3.

END SPOILER ALERT!!!

There is a betrayal there, but it's set up really well, so the audience does not hate the game for doing it. It's only when a betrayal is set up badly that the audience feels cheated.
However, like I said, there's so much involved in a storyline that involves betrayal like what we're discussing, that it limits the way you have to tell the story. It's a trope that really should be left in the hands of very skilled writers and used only on occasion, because it requires an exceptional amount of finesse to pull it off correctly.