Biden says he does not regret Afghanistan withdrawal as Taliban take over more towns

[immortalfrieza]

A lotta women losing a lot of freedoms now. It's a shame. Some of whom have known nothing but the freedoms and grown up with them.

Good. Maybe those very women will be willing in the coming years to fight to get those freedoms back now that they've lost them. It's a lot harder to put up with not having freedom when you actually have had it at one point and way too easy to not have freedom when you've never known it.

 

[Trunkage]

"There's no easy answer" isn't an argument. Why *not* save as many people as possible.

I agree with the senitment. Still does not make any answer easy. It's not an OR situation. Its an AND situation

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I think the biggest take away from the speech is:

“I know my decision will be criticized. But I would rather take that criticism than pass this on to a fifth president,” said Biden. “I am the president of the United States, the buck stops with me.”

Analysis: Defiant Biden is face of chaotic Afghan evacuation

Four presidents share responsibility for the missteps in Afghanistan that accumulated over two decades.

apnews.com

He could have just cancelled the withdrawal and kept the war going for another 4-8 years and nothing would have changed but it'd be somebody else problem and he wouldn't have to take the flak for it. I think at the end of his presidency there'll be a lot Biden could be critisized on, but I don't think this is one of them.

My problem with this whole thing isn't the withdrawal itself. It had to happen sometime, and really should have happened much sooner. It's good that Biden is willing to make the difficult call of finally ending this thing after 20 years, and taking the hit to do the thing that's best for the country rather than the easy thing.

The problem is that this was clearly done hastily and with no plan. The military should have been planning this withdrawal of troops years ago. They should have had exit strategies planned, and if they didn't they had a year to prep since Trump made the decision to get all our troops out. It's a complete embarrassment how this whole thing was clearly thrown together at the last minute, and I think that pushing for this withdrawal with absolutely no plan for how to do it effectively is the biggest issue.

We left behind people who were our allies and worked directly with our military to now be killed by the Taliban for being "traitors" for working together with Americans. We left behind enough equipment to completely rearm the Taliban for the next several decades with better gear than they've ever had. We gave them a complete victory and looked like floundering idiots while doing it. It's not the withdrawal itself that needs to be criticized, but the planning and logistics of it.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Honestly, while the consequences were predictable, at least I gotta give credit to the US government for actually going through with the withdrawal from Afghanistan, rather than kicking the can down the road like the previous ones did.

 

[Worgen]

 

[immortalfrieza]

My problem with this whole thing isn't the withdrawal itself. It had to happen sometime, and really should have happened much sooner. It's good that Biden is willing to make the difficult call of finally ending this thing after 20 years, and taking the hit to do the thing that's best for the country rather than the easy thing.

The problem is that this was clearly done hastily and with no plan. The military should have been planning this withdrawal of troops years ago. They should have had exit strategies planned, and if they didn't they had a year to prep since Trump made the decision to get all our troops out. It's a complete embarrassment how this whole thing was clearly thrown together at the last minute, and I think that pushing for this withdrawal with absolutely no plan for how to do it effectively is the biggest issue.

We left behind people who were our allies and worked directly with our military to now be killed by the Taliban for being "traitors" for working together with Americans. We left behind enough equipment to completely rearm the Taliban for the next several decades with better gear than they've ever had. We gave them a complete victory and looked like floundering idiots while doing it. It's not the withdrawal itself that needs to be criticized, but the planning and logistics of it.

We've looked like floundering idiots and gave them a complete victory from the moment we went to war with Afghanistan to begin with. Pulling out hastily with no plan was the only way we were ever going to actually pull out. Otherwise we would've spent the next at most 8 years with the Biden administration claiming we were going to pull out and never actually doing it like every administration after Bush has been doing. Then when the next administration comes in probably turning around and putting back in what little that we did actually manage to get out.

The best of a bad situation was to simply go "That's it, we're outta here!" and just up and doing it as quickly as humanly possible and damn the consequences. Otherwise we'd have probably be sitting here another 20 years from now with our army STILL in that country. There was no better alternative, or more accurately, there was no better alternative that would actually get DONE.

 

[Dreiko]

Honestly, if their government can collapse this easily, I can't help but see it as the will of the people. Sure, the people in this case are bronze age savages with backwards notions, but it's their freaking country and they should get to do what they want in it. If there isn't enough opposition to them which would prevent them overthrowing the entire government in such a short notice you only have the citizenry to blame. If we're fine with allowing Saudi Arabia to keep existing, this is par for the course.

 

[gorfias]

I think the biggest take away from the speech is:

“I know my decision will be criticized. But I would rather take that criticism than pass this on to a fifth president,” said Biden. “I am the president of the United States, the buck stops with me.”

Analysis: Defiant Biden is face of chaotic Afghan evacuation

Four presidents share responsibility for the missteps in Afghanistan that accumulated over two decades.

apnews.com

He could have just cancelled the withdrawal and kept the war going for another 4-8 years and nothing would have changed but it'd be somebody else problem and he wouldn't have to take the flak for it. I think at the end of his presidency there'll be a lot Biden could be critisized on, but I don't think this is one of them.

Why did Trump make a withdrawal deal at all? My guess is the American people are outraged that we were still in Afghanistan to begin with. Had Biden chosen to stay and kick the can down the road, he'd take the heat for that, for staying at all, for not going through with a withdawal offered by Trump who will be right there to say, "told you so" in 2024. I will agree, I think Trump presented Biden with a no win situation. Stay and look like a relative failure next to Trump who was to withdraw (why AFTER his 1st term rather toward the start?) or do what happened: expose the whole exercise as a futile waste of time. BTW: some argue the whole problem is that Biden failed to follow the Trump plan and had he kept to that agreement that we leave last May, none of this would have happened. Biden botched the withdrawal. Dunno if I buy that but we'll never know as we didn't withdraw in May.

Another interesting thing to review: I, like others are chagrined by Biden's speech in which he seemed to set up a straw-man, that what he has done is really a fight against the huge populace that want forever war. Seems very ingenuous.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Guy famous for getting scholar's mated in Pogchamps talks politics with idiot former D-tier Starcraft 2 pro

(No, I'm not even bothering to watch that)

 

[stroopwafel]

The images of those people falling from C17's is one of the most distressing things I've ever seen. You can't transform a nation into a modern democracy when the people aren't ready for it. Afghanistan has always been a patchwork of tribes with competing interests that would never be united under a corrupt central government. The problems of the Afghan army were much more complex than just low morale; the Taliban were portrayed as their ''wayward brothers'', there is zero sense of an 'Afghan identity' and due to corruption they didn't even get their wages paid. What the U.S. has done in the last two decades is enforce the rule of a corrupt central leadership that absolutely no one was willing to defend let alone die for.

Outside the geopolitical implications like the 'victory' of islamic fundamentalism, undermining of U.S. authority in questions like Taiwan, the bankruptcy of interventionism that the Syrian people have already been the victim of and with countries like Russia and China jumping into the vacuum eroding the U.S.'s sphere of influence, the complete breakdown of the post-WW2 world order with the admittedly over-reliance on the U.S. military, the potential for destabilization and mass exodus of refugees towards Europe(similarly as when the Iraq conflict spilled over into Syria). And on a more local front the boon for Iran, Syrian and Pakistan(primarily their security apparatus ISI) that have done everything in their power to undermine the peacekeeping efforts. The regional consequences of Russia and China now being best buddies with the Taliban. The list goes on and on.

If you know the history the fact that Hamid Karzai devised a surrender to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar(is that guy immortal?) couldn't possibly be more humiliating or carry a heavier burden of thorough defeat.

I also wonder though where was Nato in all of this? They knew the U.S. wanted to retreat from Afghanistan since 2014 but they cared as much about it as European countries care about their military expenditures(ie whatever chump change is left on the state budget). The U.S. at this point is like a retired police officer. Nato is a joke and European countries still think the U.S. will come and save them. China and Russia meanwhile are jumping into the vacuum American absence and European lethargy are leaving behind.

The world has unmistakenbly become an even darker place.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

The images of those people falling from C17's is one of the most distressing things I've ever seen.

Came here just to say that. Genuinely terrifying shit, even if all I saw was a pixel falling from the sky. In full HD no less, which really bothered me. This is the kind of thing you expect to see on some shitty black and white footage. But this is all happening right as I type this. Fuck.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Came here just to say that. Genuinely terrifying shit, even if all I saw was a pixel falling from the sky. In full HD no less, which really bothered me. This is the kind of thing you expect to see on some shitty black and white footage. But this is all happening right as I type this. Fuck.

Mm. I saw pictures that had circles around the falling people. Was the kind of thing most only see in movies.

 

[Seanchaidh]

 

[Dreiko]

Those bombs were protecting girls and women so it's ok.

 

[Agema]

They gave refuge to Osama, correct? We are told this was to punish Afghanistan for this. But he didn't stay there but went on to Pakistan? Did we invade them? He came from, and got his values from Saudi Arabia. We sanctioning them in any way?

Taking on Pakistan is a total non-starter. And I don't think he was there at the invitation of the Pakistani government (although potentially there with the knowledge and permission of part of the Pakistani intelligence / defence forces).

Cynical me: we went to deplete our weapon reserves so that the military industrial complex would need to rebuild them and keep the cash flowing. Also, this gave real world combat experience to our troops. Is that important? Do the Chinese do this? Is staving off someone from a stone age culture relevant experience to prepare for war with people with nukes, super computers, satellites, etc.? I don't think so.

I'm absolutely sure a fringe benefit of getting involved in conflicts is the opportunity to test new weapons and battle-readiness. One can say that fighting Afghan insurgents is not what it would be to fight a modern war, but in practice a great deal of transferrable advantage is still available. Battlefield experience for troops; ironing out equipment glitches and other optimisations, etc. As anyone who plays a computer game knows, playtesting can erase a number of faults, but some you just have to find out by letting it go live and seeing what the users find.

My biggest beef with Biden's speech today? Reminds me of Rober McNamara, architect of the Vietnam war who developed and sold the war, massaging stats to make it all look like a great success. 25 years later, he was selling books/touring saying he knew the Vietnam war was a mistake all along.

I've got a better idea. All those people who just badly wanted the USA out, well now it's done - mission accomplished.

So stand up and give your president an unironic cheer for getting it done, rather than find things to quibble about just because you're disappointed which party he represents. And, with respect to the quote supplied by Meiam...

“I know my decision will be criticized. But I would rather take that criticism than pass this on to a fifth president,” said Biden. “I am the president of the United States, the buck stops with me."

...be thankful that he has also had the responsibility to stand up and own it despite the negatives, which is oh so different from the craven, irresponsible clownshoes who preceded him.

 

[Agema]

With how quickly the Taliban took over the country, I'm lead to wonder if they moved in because the US was pulling out or if the US pulled out because they knew this was about to happen. It's not as though there was much of a force left there.

Almost certainly the former. Whilst the USA was still maintaining a presence in Afghanistan, they could not afford to suffer an overt defeat and any Taliban offensive would hit the buffers quickly.

I would guess the basic strategy would be a mobile defence lifting troops where they are needed. Whilst the Taliban can rampage over the Afghan army, the US military as easily can wreck the Taliban in any pitched combat. For the Taliban to attempt to take a city, the USA need only drop a handful of companies into the city with air support and a few Afghans to pad out the numbers, and that's the end of that assault (never mind interdicting the Taliban in the countryside too).

One the USA left, that's the end of that. I think there was an Afghan mobile ops unit that could do this (and was allegedly quite effective), but it's nothing like enough to prop up the whole country when the rest of the army doesn't think it's their job to fight.

 

[gorfias]

I've got a better idea. All those people who just badly wanted the USA out, well now it's done - mission accomplished.

So stand up and give your president an unironic cheer for getting it done, rather than find things to quibble about just because you're disappointed which party he represents. And, with respect to the quote supplied by Meiam...

...be thankful that he has also had the responsibility to stand up and own it despite the negatives, which is oh so different from the craven, irresponsible clownshoes who preceded him.

I am not a Republican anymore. I don't care which party gets us out, just get us out.
I am irked at Trump. Nice political move, making the withdrawal AFTER the end of his term.
But this was a disaster. From day one. And blame must be apportioned, including to Bush, Obama and Biden.
And at the front of it all? An American people that forgot the lessons of Vietnam.

 

[Worgen]

Guy famous for getting scholar's mated in Pogchamps talks politics with idiot former D-tier Starcraft 2 pro

(No, I'm not even bothering to watch that)

That's the level I would expect from you.

 

[meiam]

My problem with this whole thing isn't the withdrawal itself. It had to happen sometime, and really should have happened much sooner. It's good that Biden is willing to make the difficult call of finally ending this thing after 20 years, and taking the hit to do the thing that's best for the country rather than the easy thing.

The problem is that this was clearly done hastily and with no plan. The military should have been planning this withdrawal of troops years ago. They should have had exit strategies planned, and if they didn't they had a year to prep since Trump made the decision to get all our troops out. It's a complete embarrassment how this whole thing was clearly thrown together at the last minute, and I think that pushing for this withdrawal with absolutely no plan for how to do it effectively is the biggest issue.

We left behind people who were our allies and worked directly with our military to now be killed by the Taliban for being "traitors" for working together with Americans. We left behind enough equipment to completely rearm the Taliban for the next several decades with better gear than they've ever had. We gave them a complete victory and looked like floundering idiots while doing it. It's not the withdrawal itself that needs to be criticized, but the planning and logistics of it.

That's easy to say, but what could have been done better? Look at the equipment, that equipment wasn't gift wrapped and left for the Taliban to find. It was given to the afghan army. The alternative would have been to just take all that away from the afghan army before leaving, and then the story would have been "Afghan army defeated because the US took all of their weapon away before leaving, making them helpless in front of the taliban offensive".

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Taliban pledge peace and women's rights under Islam as they strike conciliatory tone

The Taliban said on Tuesday they wanted peaceful relations with other countries and would respect the rights of women within the framework of Islamic law, as they held their first official news briefing since their lightning seizure of Kabul.

www.reuters.com

Women would be allowed to work and study and "will be very active in society but within the framework of Islam", he added.

At best Iran, at worst Saudi Arabia. those women must be feeling fine about that.

He said private media could continue to be free and independent in Afghanistan and that the Taliban were committed to the media within their cultural framework.

So don't say anything anti-Taliban or you go to jail.

He also said families trying to flee the country at the airport should return home and nothing would happen to them.

I have a theory that this speech is motivated to keep people in the country. They are losing a lot of population which is a massive brain drain and also can't stop them from leaving. So make empty promises until their escape route is cut and the world stops looking at them.


Sorry I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt to a group that had people in it who committed 9/11