Biden team faced "tirade" at meeting with Chinese over America's poor human rights record in "Diplomatic humiliation"

Hawki

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Moral high ground?

Moral high ground?

It imprisons people arbitrarily en masse.

An approach that looks more like a lottery is not any better.
Disagree.

Does it properly heed the warnings given anyway?
Completely irrelevant to the point. Trump, for all his incompetence, never imprisoned his own scientists.

Do drone strikes count? How about supporting military coups that go on to murder protestors? Or is that arms length enough that you don't care about it?
China already supports murederous regimes, and is a major arms supplier of drones, in addition to everything else.

And I never said I didn't care about it, that was never the point.

Please explain why I should give a shit about a particular opinion published by a particular group.
Convenient, I give you evidence, you say "I don't care."

Fine. I'll link you to other groups


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13551672/china-slave-labour-products-household-christmas/


Moral high ground?

Moral high ground?!

Oh, it's for profit, moral high ground!
I'm frankly done with you.

I never excused it as being for profit, I simply pointed it out as that being the reason. But since you've already resorted to "I don't care" based on whatever evidence I provide, why bother?

Like I said, I'm done. If we were living in the 30s or 40s, you'd probably be equating the Holocaust to police brutality. And before you put words in my mouth (again), no, the situation of the Ughyrs isn't equivalent to the Holocaust, but it still falls under the categorization of genocide.


Why yes, I have listened to Beds Are Burning many times, thanks for reminding me. I quite like the song.

I fail to see how that refutes my point that Australia and Mexico aren't imperialist powers in any real sense because unlike imperialist powers, they have no real ability to project power beyond their own borders. If your definition of imperialist is that a country was conquered, then practically every single country on Earth is imperialist. China sure as hell is.
 

Revnak

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Imperialism is when you’re big and strong and the more strong you are the more imperialism it is
 

Hawki

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Imperialism is when you’re big and strong and the more strong you are the more imperialism it is
Nowhere in the dictionary will you find that definition of imperialism.

Imperialism can be defined as "a system in which a country rules other countries, sometimes having used force to get power over them."

Now, that's not the best definition in the world, since imperialism dates back to the world's earliest empires, and doesn't account for influence rather than outright rule, but "big and strong" isn't a good definition. Japan, for instance, is big, in terms of population and GDP. It certainly isn't imperialist - not since the Second World War.
 

Revnak

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I swear my sense of humor is as blunt as a sledgehammer. I swear I’m not smart or witty. I refuse to take any joy out of my jokes going over anyone’s head. I am a failure.
 

Hawki

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I swear my sense of humor is as blunt as a sledgehammer. I swear I’m not smart or witty. I refuse to take any joy out of my jokes going over anyone’s head. I am a failure.
Honestly, the thread's gone into Crazy Town, so fuck it, I can't tell anymore.
 

Hawki

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Your insistence that China is uniquely awful says otherwise.
Oh for goodness sake...

I have never claimed that China was uniquely awful. To quote one of my own posts:

Also, fourth, your implication is that the US government is the worse in the world. I...no. Just no. It isn't. Not even the CCP is. In a world where governments like North Korea, Eritrea, and Brunei exist, are you seriously placing these as the worse of the worst?
China isn't "uniquely awful." I never claimed that it was. There's nothing it's doing now that other countries haven't done/are also doing, and in many cases, are worse.

The act of criticizing China and the United States doesn't automatically mean that every other country in the world is immune from criticism.
 

Seanchaidh

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Oh for goodness sake...

I have never claimed that China was uniquely awful. To quote one of my own posts:
Your insistence that the United States is better suggests otherwise, then. The United States does not have "the moral high ground". It's an empire that exploits and terrorizes its own people and other countries for the profit of its ruling economic class.
 

Avnger

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Your insistence that the United States is better suggests otherwise, then. The United States does not have "the moral high ground". It's an empire that exploits and terrorizes its own people and other countries for the profit of its ruling economic class.
You do realize there could be more than one level on the pyramid of shittiness, right? Just because the US isn't at the tippy-top doesn't mean they're not stuck on the 2nd or 3rd level....

Absolutely no one is saying the US deserves to be near the bottom like you're implying.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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My favorite part of this thread is the victim of western imperialism telling everyone how awful western imperialism is, and being told "nah bro, have you seen China?"
 
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Revnak

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My favorite part of this thread is the victim of western imperialism telling everyone how awful western imperialism is, and being told "nah bro, have you seen China?"
Bro, they commit genocide! When has the west committed genocide?!?

Ok, but when in the last decade?

Ok, but when in the last year?

Ok, but when right now?

Listen, we just gotta give Biden time and/or...
...anti-Semitic conspiracy about why apartheid Israel is not a client state but the reverse
...racist genocide denial about Palestinians/Yemenis/Latinos/Native Americans
...absurd attempt to appeal to the scale of hypothetical Chinese crimes if their concentration camps become death camps without explicitly stating they currently are to skirt Holocaust denial, ignoring the similar scale of US supported facilities in the US and around the globe

Edit: I wanna make it clear, I’m not even some sort of “any US foreign policy goal bad” kinda guy for dozens of reasons and I’m absolutely willing to recognize a locally worse or globally worse power as just that given it actually appears to be the case, but literally everything China is doing the US does somewhere else on a comparable scale. This isn’t US vs the Nazis, this is manufacturing consent for a new Cold War and I refuse to buy in.
 
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Hawki

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This isn’t US vs the Nazis, this is manufacturing consent for a new Cold War and I refuse to buy in.
Yes to the first, no to the second.

We're already in a Cold War, or at least, something that approaches one. It's not a 1:1 situation in that the US and China still engage in trade and have diplomatic ties, which is different from the situation of the 20th century, but there's more similarities than differences at this point.
 

Trunkage

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Yeah, Australia doesn't do it regularly but it certainly has Imperialistic tendencies. The quibble is that we only do it for economic gain and not try and control the country too much. Give us your oil and we'll leave you alone...
 

Trunkage

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You do realize there could be more than one level on the pyramid of shittiness, right? Just because the US isn't at the tippy-top doesn't mean they're not stuck on the 2nd or 3rd level....

Absolutely no one is saying the US deserves to be near the bottom like you're implying.
Just a query for the pyramid thing. Is being on top or bottom the worst position?
 

Hawki

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Yeah, Australia doesn't do it regularly but it certainly has Imperialistic tendencies. The quibble is that we only do it for economic gain and not try and control the country too much. Give us your oil and we'll leave you alone...
On the subject of oil, where though?

There was the East Timor Greater Sunrise issue, so yeah, absolutely. But I looked up Australia's main oil import countries, we really don't have any real influence over them. There's the idea of war for oil in the Middle East, but even then, our only ME import partner that makes the list is the UAE.
 

Avnger

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Just a query for the pyramid thing. Is being on top or bottom the worst position?
I ended up deciding it was the top. Was thinking of doing the whole bottom = most shit because "shit rolls down hill" but it sounded a bit odd when written out for whatever reason.
 

Mister Mumbler

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I don't know what I find more hilarious, that China literally did a "I know you are but what am I?", or the fact that (if this thread is any indication) it worked.
 

Kae

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Lose 1d20 sanity points.
Snark. I like it.

Actually, it is relevant, because Vietnamese fleeing Vietnam parallels Cubans fleeing Cuba, after both countries adopted socialist systems. Relevant in the sense that Vietnam is doing much better than Cuba these days, and as such, the refugee flow stopped.
I'm not talking about Cuba or Vietnam they were simply examples that it is possible to win a revolution against the imperial core, I do not know how that is hard to understand to you, I haven't expressed support or condemnation I have stated the fact that they succeeded which means it's possible, other than that it holds no relevancy to anything else I've said, also I'll have you know that snark is a core part of my cultural heritage and I'll have you know that I have toned it down in an effort to seem less rude, I don't know if I have succeeded though, this is actually a serious statement BTW.

Oh come on, I know you're desparate here.

First, if we're comparing countries, Australia ranks higher than Internet freedom than Mexico, so that doesn't hold up. Second, if you're browsing from Latin American universities (universities being left wing in general), then if anything, you're going to get more biaised results. I doubt that's actually the case, but that's not how search algorithms work.
Third, I have put effort into things. That's why, as opposed to decades ago I was under the assumption that the US was literally blockading Cuba, I'm less willing to simply go "US bad" and consider other factors, including the collapse of USSR subsidies, the Cuban regime itself, and its bizzare economic system.
First of all you're probably monolingual so you don't understand that if I google a thing in Spanish I get results in Spanish, which is my native language, that's actually how the algorithm works, second universities are generally not left wing, they tend to be liberal which is to say rather liberal and very much do tend to favour Capitalism particularly in the economic sector, it's really only arts and social sciences that have a tendency towards the left, c'mon dude I'm a high school dropout and even I know that, third most of Latin America is economically liberal which is to say institutionally in favour of Capitalism even if among the generally populace Socialism is more accepted than in the "Global North", and finally everything is biased, there's no such thing as unbiased data, the biases of the person making the study directly inform the methodology and goal of the study, that's the way it works, the reason why the bias of Latin American studies show a much less charitable depiction of imperialism and economic interference is because Latin Americans living under the heel of those systems tend to not only be more aware of those systems so therefore they are more likely to study them, since you know they directly influence our daily lives, it makes that you don't give a shit, it doesn't affect you.

Um, if you want to make the "founded on genocide" argument, you do realize that applies to Mexico as well, right?
It was a joke, pretty sure I stated as much, but if you want to take it seriously, yes México and basically all of Latin America is founded genocide, imperialism and slavery too, there is a key difference though, the Spanish were less focused in annihilating the natives than the English settlers in Australia or North America, as a result a lot of natives survived and the majority of the population, myself included are mixed race, as a result our cultures actually tend to be more sympathetic towards the natives and even if there is governmental oppression of the natives (Which there very much still is in México), the vast majority of the population at least here in México identify more as native than European, you'll hear a lot more people brag about being of Aztec, Mayan, Olmec, etc descent than people bragging over Spanish or otherwise European descent, which makes the regular populace very different to what a culture like yours or the Americans is, now I will not claim there isn't racism because there is but it's very different and the culture doesn't worship colonialism like your people do, since despite the majority of the population being mixed they consider the Spanish the bad guys and general consensus is that their arrival is bad, this is despite school textbooks painting a very different story as they are more favourable towards colonialism.

Also, neither Australia or Mexico are imperialist in any real sense of the word.
They do, to a degree all countries in the world are interconnected by global trade, and through this medium they all engage in economic imperialism, México is a bit different as it is definitely one of the economically colonised countries and therefore one of the exploited, forced to accept trade deals that are directly detrimental to it's society, we can see this very plainly in a city in which I used to live called Mexicali in Baja California (North), the city doesn't have one but two power plants using thermoelectric technology in order to generate power for several cities in the USA I don't know exactly which ones but I know they definitely sell to at least California & Arizona, however since the plants were contracted to provide for the USA and not México in order to have power the city of Mexicali has to buy back that power from the USA resulting in the city with the most expensive electricity in the entire country, despite having two power plants that should in theory make it really cheap, this is an example of economic imperialism, these kinds of violent directly damaging deals are what I'm referring to when I say economic imperialism, and it is damaging these plants use water in order to generate electricity and while Mexicali is a desert it's actually very rich in subterranean water deposits, however between the power plants, the coca-cola factory and the beer factories the small towns surrounding the city are being left without water and without water communities simply can't function, these people are all being murdered by economic imperialism, that is my point this is murder this what you do, in a sense we all do it, México engages in trade deals and exploits too, but that is precisely why Capitalism is bad, and the USA is the worst offender when it comes to this as they not only aggressively engage in these horribly tyrannical deals but they also actively wage violent wars or fund someone else fight those wars on their behalf and keep those deals sweet and cheap for them, no matter how many people they have to kill, whether directly with guns and drones or indirectly by getting someone else to do it or starving people.

BTW in the same way they manipulate the market to keep deals low for themselves they also manipulate the markets to keep deals high towards their political opponents, that's why conditions in socialist countries tend to be bad, because they force them to take extremely bad deals in order to prevent them from succeeding, and that's also why poor Capitalist countries stay poor, take México for example it's actually extremely wealthy in resources, everything from Oil, Lithium, to high quality fish and seafood as well as beef and way too many vegetables, fruits and spices as well as textiles, Electricity and way too many other resources can be found here, by all intents and purposes due to the sheer quantity of goods and services we provide we should be an extremely rich country, the levels of poverty that we have should be considered absurd, but we aren't, because of this practice of economic imperialism, which is what has lead us to the current global situation of Eurocentrism, and part of the reason why China is being made out to be the hugest evil that has ever existed it's because China defies the standard of Eurocentrism, while also having a different economic system, though nowadays it resembles Capitalism way too much to really be considered different.
 
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