Biggest douchebag NPC's in gaming?

[mattttherman3]

The king bobomb in super mario 64, it took me an hour to beat him as a kid, logially I thought, surely throwing him off the edge would kill him? Nope, dropping him on the ground in front of you does. Seems legit.

Also Deathclaws, fuck those fucks, especially in New Vegas where there are harder to kill for some reason.

 

[mrhappy1489]

Make's me think of ASOIF where everyone,

Spoiler

bar Stannis, just ignores the Night's Watch in their warnings about the others and mance rayders army.

Don't worry I'm not spoiling anything you wouldn't have read yet:

Spoiler

To be fair, hardly anyone believes in the Others and the Night's Watch has deteriorated in it's quality of brothers so it makes sense that most people would be highly skeptical of their warnings about them. In regards to Mance, The Lannisters benefit from him attacking the North. He could have destroyed the North with his numbers if he'd gotten through the wall. Then, Tywin could have proclaimed him the new warden of the North and made a peace offering. Even if Mance decided to not accept a peace offering, I highly doubt his poorly armored wildlings could have done much against the might of both Highgarden and Casterly Rock. I think they went over this in one of the small council meetings but I can't remember for sure.

OT: Brucie from GTAIV is probably the biggest douchebag I have ever encountered in a game. I can't really describe how much I loathe him.

See I kind of disagree with that

Spoiler

If Mance was able to control the north, it would mean that he controls Moat Cailan which would mean that no land army would be able to attack from the south and considering Mance's intelligence he would know about this. From the north he could use whatever resources that were left by the Northmen to strength his army. With 40,000 wildling soldiers he could quite easily pose a significant threat to the south and I don't think there is much that Tywin could have done to appease him. Besides if this had happened I could almost imagine Robb siding with him and using the new numbers to pose a larger threat to Tywin and the men of highgarden. On another note I always thought it weird that no one from the north had the idea to let Mace Tyrell march his men through Moat Cailan and then smash him on the different terrain. It sounds illogical but I'm sure someone clever enough would have been able to pull it off.

Everything you've said is true or at least very possible but the people we've both left out are the Iron Men.

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They'd probably be able to defeat Mance. I'm not sure of their numbers but they are probably around equal and they are significantly better armed. Not sure if you've read AFFC but it depicts a battle from the point of view of Victarion Greyjoy. He is in full plate armor and his foes' blows do almost nothing while he cuts them apart with ease. Now obviously they aren't all as heavily armored as him but you get the idea. Of course, there is the possibility that they'd see the Wildling's ideals as similar to their own (take what you want by paying the iron price is kind of similar to what the Wildlings are doing) and ally with them. That would be pretty scary for the realm. However, they might just decide that the North is theirs alone and fight the Wildlings. Given their arrogance, this would not surprise me. I don't think the Wildlings would ever ally with the North though because they are the ones who mainly oppress them.

Now, assuming the Wildlings actually take the North for themselves, yes they would be able to prevent any land army from coming through but they would be poorly equipped to deal with an assault from the sea. The Lannisters areallied with the Redwynes who control the most powerful fleet in the realm. They could easily attack the White Harbor and attack the North from there.

As far as why Robb didn't let Mace take Moat Cailan, he wanted to attack the South. Giving the choke point to the enemy would ensure his rebellion's failure. Not to mention, Tywin would not allow Mace to fall for such a trap. They would likely regroup, scout, then decide how to pursue once they had their full strength. They would likely leave a a decent sized garrison at Moat Cailan and then attack the North with their full combined force. Even if the Southerners were forced to retreat, the Northern men would still suffer major losses and they wouldn't be able to retake Moat Cailan. They way I see it, once the Tyrells joined the Lannisters, they pretty much guaranteed that Robb would lose the war.

Then again, these are all hypotheticals that we will never really know the answer to.

Now while I agree with the fact that these are hypothetical I'm enjoying this conversation to much to stop and have a little more to add.

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I really think that the iron born would be pretty much useless against Mance. It has been stated numerous times that the strength of the Iron born is in the iron fleet and the further away from land they are the worse they are. It's also been stated numerous times by most of the iron born that they have difficulty holding anything far from the ocean and I believe at one point Asha chastised Theon for taking Winterfell because they just couldn't be supported because they just don't have the resources to do it. As for protecting from the south, the only way it would be threatened is from the eastern coast and I think Mance could quite easily hold it. I'm discounting the west because that would likely fall to the iron born but they wouldn't be able to take anything else, plus the iron born would never team up with the other kingdoms meaning they act as a sufficient buffer state. If theoretically is White Harbour and Eastwatch by the Sea are the only viable ports to land troops from, I think Mance could quite easily hold it. White Harbour is described as having fairly powerful walls protecting it and the city seems to only go up giving them better ground. What is more if Mance has the help of builders considering they don't flee the port, it would mean he could use there help to build scorpions and catapults to repel any invasion. I don't know much about Eastwatch, but I believe the trip there is dangerous enough that if the redwyne fleet tried it they would be sufficiently injured by the time they got there. This is all speculation and it relies on a lot of things working together but I do believe it could work. The Mace thing was silly I must agree, but he is pretty headstrong and stupid, all it would take is for him to see the Northern force fleeing and he'd probably try and run them down, at which point they could be turned around on difficult terrain and routed. Mace himself is described as pretty stupid I wouldn't be surprised if a plan like that could work. Plus it's likely Mace would want to lead the charge because Randyll Tarly took most of the glory when he beat Robert, so a sufficiently intelligent commander could very well defeat him on home soil.

I too enjoy discussing ASoIaF. Let us continue!

Spoiler

You raise many good points about the Ironborn. They haven't really shown too much ability in assaulting places by land. They were able to take Moat Cailin from the North although I don't think Robb left a very impressive garrison behind so ya, I'll concede this one to you. Mance would probably be able to defeat them in the places where it mattered.

As far as Mance holding White Harbor, I just don't see it. His Wildlings have no experience holding cities and their Naval force would be pitiful to non-existent. If the Redwyne's were to attack with a large majority of their fleet, it would be like the battle of Blackwater only significantly more in favor of the attackers due to the lack of a surprise wildfire trap.

And then there's the matter of man power. Mance only really has a 100,000 warriors. The Tyrells can command almost that many on their own. Mance would suffer considerable losses taking Moat Cailin (mainly from the harassment of the Crannogs rather than the actual assault on Moat Cailin as it is quite easy to take from the North) and White Harbor. I'd bet that Mance would lose at least a quarter of his force during this especially since it is largely unfamiliar territory. Mance is going to need more than 75,000 men to defend Moat Cailin, White Harbor and Deepwood Motte.

Speaking of Deepwood Motte. Major weak point since Mance doesn't have a Navy. Asha took it with only a thousand men, imagine how easily even a small portion of the Redwyne fleet could take it. Yes it is a long journey from there to Moat Cailin but once they do get there, it's checkmate for Mance. Given how long this would take it would probably be the last plan for the South (I doubt they'd even consider taking going to Eastwatch since as you said, that's generally a perilous journey in the fall) but it remains an option.

Another option to take Moat Cailin would be to do exactly what the Ironborn did. The South could construct a decent sized fleet of longships (as far as I know they don't have many of these, mainly war galleys) and take them up the Salt Spear. This would probably be their second option if they thought a battle at White Harbor would cost them to many lives and ships.

Ultimately, I don't think Mance has a large enough of a force (especially where navy is concerned) to hold all of the key points in the North. One of the reasons that the North has always been so hard to invade is because if it is unified, there is a ton of man power to protect it.

Hmm this has given me a lot to think about

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I think that Deepwood Motte wouldn't be too hard for Mance to control and protect from the Redwyne fleet, mainly because the redwyne's would have to sail pass the iron born and at this point in time I just can't see them defeating them. Remember that the only reason Victarion was defeat in the Greyjoy Rebellions, was because Stannis out thunk him and I can't see Paxter Redwyne pulling that off, especially if Euron is there. It is most likely that the Ironborn would never loss control of the Western Coast of the North if Mance was to come down and it would mean that Mance would most likely have a significantly diminished domain, but I don't see the Ironborn having the military might or the sheer force of will to try and fight Mance and his 100,000 man army.

Onto White Harbour, I still believe that Mance could effectively hold the city from the Redwyne fleet. If I remember my facts, the extent of the Tyrell forces was something like 80,000 troops with the Redwynes in possession of about 200-250 War galleys and possibly 2-3 that many merchant vessels, which would be for transport only in the event of a full scale assault on the North. Now when Stannis attacked Kings Landing he had roughly the same amount of War Galleys, yet that wasn't enough to transport his army of 20,000, most of whom went on horse back to kings landing rather than ride in the ships. Considering Mance would most likely be holding, though with much difficulty, Moat Cailin, this would mean the bulk of the Tyrell-Lannister force would be trapped in the south. Transporting troops by sea with the Merchant Vessels to the west coast would be considerably difficult for the Redwynes, because they'd have to contend with the Ironborn and probably suffer considerable losses. So it's most likely that the Redwynes would only be able to transport as many as 30,000-40,000 if they used all their vessels and sailed at White Harbour. Considering how well defended the Harbour of White Harbour is, with multiple catapults and scorpions adorning the walls, I can see Mance and a force of say 60,000 warriors being able to hold it, or at least weaken the Tyrell forces to such an extent that even if they took White Harbour, they wouldn't have much luck holding it for very long. Also considering Manderly had at least 23 massive War Galleys, I believe that they could be used, ineffectively of course, but to enough an extent that they could make life considerably difficult for the Redwyne fleet and cause some losses, or at least clog up the harbour and make it difficult to transport troops in.

I will relent in that if they really wanted the North, I think the Lannister-Tyrell army could take the North from Mance, though I believe the causalities on their armies would be far to great for them to legitimately consider doing it. Plus there is also the threat of the Ironborn who I don't believe would give up whatever possessions they have in the North, which would make it equally as costly for the southern forces to attack the North via the West. However supposing that the Ironborn no longer have a presence in the North, I agree that Mance would most likely loss. Though I still think he'd do some much damage to the southern forces that they'd never risk attacking him, especially if he's commanding 100,000 experienced wilding warriors. Whether they're cover in heavy plate or leather, I think their natural hardiness and tenacity would probably serve them well against any threat from the south.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Make's me think of ASOIF where everyone,

Spoiler

bar Stannis, just ignores the Night's Watch in their warnings about the others and mance rayders army.

Don't worry I'm not spoiling anything you wouldn't have read yet:

Spoiler

To be fair, hardly anyone believes in the Others and the Night's Watch has deteriorated in it's quality of brothers so it makes sense that most people would be highly skeptical of their warnings about them. In regards to Mance, The Lannisters benefit from him attacking the North. He could have destroyed the North with his numbers if he'd gotten through the wall. Then, Tywin could have proclaimed him the new warden of the North and made a peace offering. Even if Mance decided to not accept a peace offering, I highly doubt his poorly armored wildlings could have done much against the might of both Highgarden and Casterly Rock. I think they went over this in one of the small council meetings but I can't remember for sure.

OT: Brucie from GTAIV is probably the biggest douchebag I have ever encountered in a game. I can't really describe how much I loathe him.

See I kind of disagree with that

Spoiler

If Mance was able to control the north, it would mean that he controls Moat Cailan which would mean that no land army would be able to attack from the south and considering Mance's intelligence he would know about this. From the north he could use whatever resources that were left by the Northmen to strength his army. With 40,000 wildling soldiers he could quite easily pose a significant threat to the south and I don't think there is much that Tywin could have done to appease him. Besides if this had happened I could almost imagine Robb siding with him and using the new numbers to pose a larger threat to Tywin and the men of highgarden. On another note I always thought it weird that no one from the north had the idea to let Mace Tyrell march his men through Moat Cailan and then smash him on the different terrain. It sounds illogical but I'm sure someone clever enough would have been able to pull it off.

Everything you've said is true or at least very possible but the people we've both left out are the Iron Men.

Spoiler

They'd probably be able to defeat Mance. I'm not sure of their numbers but they are probably around equal and they are significantly better armed. Not sure if you've read AFFC but it depicts a battle from the point of view of Victarion Greyjoy. He is in full plate armor and his foes' blows do almost nothing while he cuts them apart with ease. Now obviously they aren't all as heavily armored as him but you get the idea. Of course, there is the possibility that they'd see the Wildling's ideals as similar to their own (take what you want by paying the iron price is kind of similar to what the Wildlings are doing) and ally with them. That would be pretty scary for the realm. However, they might just decide that the North is theirs alone and fight the Wildlings. Given their arrogance, this would not surprise me. I don't think the Wildlings would ever ally with the North though because they are the ones who mainly oppress them.

Now, assuming the Wildlings actually take the North for themselves, yes they would be able to prevent any land army from coming through but they would be poorly equipped to deal with an assault from the sea. The Lannisters areallied with the Redwynes who control the most powerful fleet in the realm. They could easily attack the White Harbor and attack the North from there.

As far as why Robb didn't let Mace take Moat Cailan, he wanted to attack the South. Giving the choke point to the enemy would ensure his rebellion's failure. Not to mention, Tywin would not allow Mace to fall for such a trap. They would likely regroup, scout, then decide how to pursue once they had their full strength. They would likely leave a a decent sized garrison at Moat Cailan and then attack the North with their full combined force. Even if the Southerners were forced to retreat, the Northern men would still suffer major losses and they wouldn't be able to retake Moat Cailan. They way I see it, once the Tyrells joined the Lannisters, they pretty much guaranteed that Robb would lose the war.

Then again, these are all hypotheticals that we will never really know the answer to.

Now while I agree with the fact that these are hypothetical I'm enjoying this conversation to much to stop and have a little more to add.

Spoiler

I really think that the iron born would be pretty much useless against Mance. It has been stated numerous times that the strength of the Iron born is in the iron fleet and the further away from land they are the worse they are. It's also been stated numerous times by most of the iron born that they have difficulty holding anything far from the ocean and I believe at one point Asha chastised Theon for taking Winterfell because they just couldn't be supported because they just don't have the resources to do it. As for protecting from the south, the only way it would be threatened is from the eastern coast and I think Mance could quite easily hold it. I'm discounting the west because that would likely fall to the iron born but they wouldn't be able to take anything else, plus the iron born would never team up with the other kingdoms meaning they act as a sufficient buffer state. If theoretically is White Harbour and Eastwatch by the Sea are the only viable ports to land troops from, I think Mance could quite easily hold it. White Harbour is described as having fairly powerful walls protecting it and the city seems to only go up giving them better ground. What is more if Mance has the help of builders considering they don't flee the port, it would mean he could use there help to build scorpions and catapults to repel any invasion. I don't know much about Eastwatch, but I believe the trip there is dangerous enough that if the redwyne fleet tried it they would be sufficiently injured by the time they got there. This is all speculation and it relies on a lot of things working together but I do believe it could work. The Mace thing was silly I must agree, but he is pretty headstrong and stupid, all it would take is for him to see the Northern force fleeing and he'd probably try and run them down, at which point they could be turned around on difficult terrain and routed. Mace himself is described as pretty stupid I wouldn't be surprised if a plan like that could work. Plus it's likely Mace would want to lead the charge because Randyll Tarly took most of the glory when he beat Robert, so a sufficiently intelligent commander could very well defeat him on home soil.

I too enjoy discussing ASoIaF. Let us continue!

Spoiler

You raise many good points about the Ironborn. They haven't really shown too much ability in assaulting places by land. They were able to take Moat Cailin from the North although I don't think Robb left a very impressive garrison behind so ya, I'll concede this one to you. Mance would probably be able to defeat them in the places where it mattered.

As far as Mance holding White Harbor, I just don't see it. His Wildlings have no experience holding cities and their Naval force would be pitiful to non-existent. If the Redwyne's were to attack with a large majority of their fleet, it would be like the battle of Blackwater only significantly more in favor of the attackers due to the lack of a surprise wildfire trap.

And then there's the matter of man power. Mance only really has a 100,000 warriors. The Tyrells can command almost that many on their own. Mance would suffer considerable losses taking Moat Cailin (mainly from the harassment of the Crannogs rather than the actual assault on Moat Cailin as it is quite easy to take from the North) and White Harbor. I'd bet that Mance would lose at least a quarter of his force during this especially since it is largely unfamiliar territory. Mance is going to need more than 75,000 men to defend Moat Cailin, White Harbor and Deepwood Motte.

Speaking of Deepwood Motte. Major weak point since Mance doesn't have a Navy. Asha took it with only a thousand men, imagine how easily even a small portion of the Redwyne fleet could take it. Yes it is a long journey from there to Moat Cailin but once they do get there, it's checkmate for Mance. Given how long this would take it would probably be the last plan for the South (I doubt they'd even consider taking going to Eastwatch since as you said, that's generally a perilous journey in the fall) but it remains an option.

Another option to take Moat Cailin would be to do exactly what the Ironborn did. The South could construct a decent sized fleet of longships (as far as I know they don't have many of these, mainly war galleys) and take them up the Salt Spear. This would probably be their second option if they thought a battle at White Harbor would cost them to many lives and ships.

Ultimately, I don't think Mance has a large enough of a force (especially where navy is concerned) to hold all of the key points in the North. One of the reasons that the North has always been so hard to invade is because if it is unified, there is a ton of man power to protect it.

Hmm this has given me a lot to think about

Spoiler

I think that Deepwood Motte wouldn't be too hard for Mance to control and protect from the Redwyne fleet, mainly because the redwyne's would have to sail pass the iron born and at this point in time I just can't see them defeating them. Remember that the only reason Victarion was defeat in the Greyjoy Rebellions, was because Stannis out thunk him and I can't see Paxter Redwyne pulling that off, especially if Euron is there. It is most likely that the Ironborn would never loss control of the Western Coast of the North if Mance was to come down and it would mean that Mance would most likely have a significantly diminished domain, but I don't see the Ironborn having the military might or the sheer force of will to try and fight Mance and his 100,000 man army.

Onto White Harbour, I still believe that Mance could effectively hold the city from the Redwyne fleet. If I remember my facts, the extent of the Tyrell forces was something like 80,000 troops with the Redwynes in possession of about 200-250 War galleys and possibly 2-3 that many merchant vessels, which would be for transport only in the event of a full scale assault on the North. Now when Stannis attacked Kings Landing he had roughly the same amount of War Galleys, yet that wasn't enough to transport his army of 20,000, most of whom went on horse back to kings landing rather than ride in the ships. Considering Mance would most likely be holding, though with much difficulty, Moat Cailin, this would mean the bulk of the Tyrell-Lannister force would be trapped in the south. Transporting troops by sea with the Merchant Vessels to the west coast would be considerably difficult for the Redwynes, because they'd have to contend with the Ironborn and probably suffer considerable losses. So it's most likely that the Redwynes would only be able to transport as many as 30,000-40,000 if they used all their vessels and sailed at White Harbour. Considering how well defended the Harbour of White Harbour is, with multiple catapults and scorpions adorning the walls, I can see Mance and a force of say 60,000 warriors being able to hold it, or at least weaken the Tyrell forces to such an extent that even if they took White Harbour, they wouldn't have much luck holding it for very long. Also considering Manderly had at least 23 massive War Galleys, I believe that they could be used, ineffectively of course, but to enough an extent that they could make life considerably difficult for the Redwyne fleet and cause some losses, or at least clog up the harbour and make it difficult to transport troops in.

I will relent in that if they really wanted the North, I think the Lannister-Tyrell army could take the North from Mance, though I believe the causalities on their armies would be far to great for them to legitimately consider doing it. Plus there is also the threat of the Ironborn who I don't believe would give up whatever possessions they have in the North, which would make it equally as costly for the southern forces to attack the North via the West. However supposing that the Ironborn no longer have a presence in the North, I agree that Mance would most likely loss. Though I still think he'd do some much damage to the southern forces that they'd never risk attacking him, especially if he's commanding 100,000 experienced wilding warriors. Whether they're cover in heavy plate or leather, I think their natural hardiness and tenacity would probably serve them well against any threat from the south.

I think you may have pretty much one me over at this point.

Spoiler

As far as the fleets of the south dealing with the Ironborn, I think they'd be able to do it if they attacked with a big enough fleet. While it's true that Stannis only defeated Victarion by springing a trap on him, he had a significantly smaller fleet than what would be possible now. Robert's rebellion had just finished and while I don't really know what ship battles there were during this, I'm assuming there were some so that's losses for both sides. More significant though is that Greyjoy had destroyed almost the entirety of the Lannister fleet with a surprise attack. However, even though I think the South could muster a fleet large enough to destroy the Ironborn, they would suffer terrible losses and they'd probably have to build another fleet to get another significant army to Deepwood Motte.

As for how defensible White Harbor is, I really don't know much about it as I am only about a hundred pages into A Dance With Dragons so Davos hasn't gotten there yet to give me a good description of it. I'll just take your word on this that they wouldn't be able to take it.

I think you're right, while the South could take the North, it wouldn't be worth it. It's not like they stand to lose a lot from just leaving Mance up there for the winter. If Mance did attack the South, he would be crushed. The South controls more troops and many of them would be of higher quality. Plus, Mance really isn't that great of a commander. He allowed himself to be taken by surprise by Stannis. Tywin would almost certainly destroy him without even that heavy of losses.

So yes, the South would probably just leave Mance alone and allow him to try and live out the winter in a kingdom that wants him dead. The only reason the South should attack is if they stood to lose more from not attacking and I don't really see that being possible.