IamLEAM1983 said:
*snip*
Soak said:
I'd just like to point out that there is one other instance of two iterations of the same individual sharing the same universe. The Lutece "twins". Otherwise, I'm not disparaging or entirely disagreeing with your point of view, even if I loved the game to bits.
*snip*
Hm,...
i didn't really see the Lutece twins as two versions of the same individual. I think, considering they appear to have different sexes, they would have to be different by birth in a biological manner and therefore would not be the same (as Booker and Comstock technically are, except they made different choices in live) - or at least one of them would have had to undergo surgery and hormone therapy which wasn't really present in their time... or would have had to use DNA splicing with something like plasmids, or vigors for that, but it didn't appear to me as if they had. Or in one of the 6 Voxophones i didn't find was an information concerning this i'm now missing, maybe you know a bit more for that than i do
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I thought they might have been actual twins in their respective dimension but lost their counterpart. Or that their parents just had one child, but different ones in their respective dimension and they would therefore consider each other as their sibling while they wouldn't really be, but still not be "identical".
But hey, that's a part left rather open by the game's narrative and a legit point.
Pyrokinesis said:
I have to agree with parts of your post, for example that the game feels partially "stitched together", at least i thought the same thing considering i followed some of the development and know about some things they dropped in the whole process, like the relationship of Booker and Elisabeth, which was originally planned/described as a love interest. Or Comstocks change from a political head figure into a religious zealot.
Though, some other things you find fault are explained rather well within the game and consistent within itself as well as with our current scientific premises/assumptions, at least as far as i can see it. However those parts are not explicitly explained unless you collect and listen to the respective Voxophones or watch the Teleboxes (or what they're called). Sure you can see this as a flaw for the game as well, considering collecting those things isn't a mandatory part of the game, though i think it makes a big part of the motivation for the game, lighting those backgrounds. On the other hand, considering huge parts of those premises are very much theoretical and not "proven" you would still have no problem to disagree with them.
However, for better understanding i would like to explain those parts i can explain, but for those who haven't played the game yet, here comes another big section of
Technically, it is not "rift" technology, but technology based on quantum physics making the city float (which could be possible, while it is out of reach for us now, considering we still have problems properly perceiving/ measuring those quantum particles and their mechanics and if you don't like this theoretical part of physics, obviously you have an unfitting premise for a good game experience in Infinite). As Explained through Voxophones, the Lutece siblings found a way to manipulate quantum particles, "freezing" them in space. After that they started to experiment with the "rift" technology, called "tears" within the game. If we actually exist in a multiverse (which is theoretically possible, but not provable, at least not yet) it just might be possible to travel through these dimensions by "rifts" or "tears". In the Voxophones is an explanation, that they already used a machine to travel through those "tears" successfully. This seemingly gave Elisabeth the ability to manipulate those "tears" herself. However, at some point Comstock tried to sabotage their machine, because he wanted to kill them/ get them out of the way, basically because they knew all his "dark secrets" and he was afraid of them. When they tried to open a tear, the machine malfunctioned and drew the siblings sort of "between the dimensions", so now they exist at every possible point in space-time within every dimension, making them something like "demigods", explaining how they can appear and disappear again "out of thin air" before the player. Also, it was not them who made up the "false shepherd" story, but it was Comstock, who made it to further cover his secrets and in hope to protect his plans, though you are right that he could only knew of all this and set his plan into motion with the aid of the Lutece siblings, however this does not explain the Lutece's motives/ intentions - those could have been totally different, for example, to simply experiment, which is explicitly said in the beginning and easily derived from their behavior throughout the whole game.
This further extends into some other points you mentioned. For example, Comstock isn't really a "future version" of Booker, but an alternate version from a dimension where he made a different decision at a crucial point in his life, or more explicit: The baptism scene at the end of the game, where Booker is the version who refused the baptism and Comstock is the version who excepted it and simply renamed himself afterwards. Or that Elisabeth made her "mother" into some kind of "ghostly being", giving her the ability to "raise others from the dead", is again very theoretical as well, but by their explanation not impossible: In a way, Elisabeth (or the machine forcing her to do so used by Comstock) "drew" an entity resembling Lady Comstock from another dimension, where she wasn't dead. Theoretically, this entity now was neither "her dead mother", nor a person from another dimension anymore, but kind of torn between dimensions. Now imagine this entity seeing multiple dimensions, having influence on, but not fully existing in any of them. She could have "pulled" other entities through those dimensions, who were dead in one, but still alive in another, seemingly "raising the dead" (similar to what Elisabeth tried with Chen Lin), but just creating other "ghostly beings" not fully existing in either dimension anymore. This is partially explained through the dialog between Elisabeth and Booker. Now you can still disagree with this, sure, because it seems very theoretical/fictional.
Another thing is the ending, with multiple Elisabeths appearing. Now, going further from the premise of a multidimensional existence and that Elisabeth seems to be able to see and manipulate those dimensions when she is freed from the influence of the "siphon", this would also be true for all the other versions of her in other dimensions. In the end, multiple versions of her appeared at the point of importance for Booker's/ Comstock's changing decision as a symbol for all of these possible dimensions concluding to one inevitable outcome: Drowning Booker at this crucial point as the necessary action to prevent all this shit from happening. All the then present versions of Elisabeth were purely "cosmetic", but should each represent a version from another possible dimension and therefore the Elisabeth resembling the earlier Elisabeth would have been from another dimension, where she simply did not cut her hair and did not change clothes, for whatever reasons. This would be derived from all the other premises made throughout the game, however, at this point in the game, it wouldn't really matter anymore, you could also explain it through any other possibilities and that is part of the whole twisted theories XD.
Also, Comstock "can't" do what he has foretold, because of different reasons: He does not posses the abilities Elisabeth has. He is not a "miracle child" as she is. And finally, weather the "archangel" who told him to purge the people on the surface simply did not tell him to do it himself, or if he doesn't really hear any "archangel", but derives everything he foretells from the possibilities through the tears he has seen with Lutece's machine, maybe he never saw a possibility to do it himself. Either way, how hard he tried, he was never able to get a daughter or any child for himself and therefore abducts the child of his "alternate version", who got one and he wholeheartedly believes, that he himself is not supposed to do the purge, but that he has to pass this challenge to Elisabeth, this is part of the narrative.
And for Bookers part and why he can't clearly remember what happened to his child. Well, it is not explicitly explained, but easy to do so, weather he is simply traumatized, considering he also branded himself after he sold his daughter/ she got abducted, or that it has to do with the use of the tears and that memories get twisted in the process, which is mentioned rather early in the game. However, none of the things you experience throughout the game is supposed to be "fake", but everything is a possible and therefore in the multiverse existing reality, though some of it got badly twisted through the use of the tears.
Why the respective versions of Booker/ Comstock can exist in the same dimension while seemingly no other (except for maybe the Luteces) can is beyond me, too.
The Rapture scene however, i guess, was purely for fan-service.
Ehm, you don't get any "tonics" in this game anymore, i guess you mean a "gear"... and for that part, those are randomized, which has nothing to do with the narrative structure of the game, but with it's gameplay - and is one of those points i criticize myself. Same goes for the revive thing with the door and Elisabeth. It's solely a gameplay decision, which i find not that smart myself, but supposedly should provide more fluent/ easy gameplay for those who die more often in the fights.
And for songbird... well, this was also another thing i was rather disappointed in. Maybe it is explained in one of the Voxophones i haven't found, but either way i found his role in the game rather weak considering how he got promoted through marketing and that it fucks up so hard even in shallow water was surprising to me as well.
Well, hope i could "explain" some more to your satisfaction, maybe someone else can cover the rest, however, this is kinda part of the fun "discussions" about this kind of games and an interesting way to deal with it myself.
I guess i have thought about all this stuff enough and will let it rest for now.
Yeah, looks like this game creates very opposite sites of recipients, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
