BioWare: Final Fantasy XIII is Not an RPG

[Silva]

Oh, look, another game designer who believes he is brilliant enough to define, in absolute terms, what fits a genre or doesn't! Who has made a few successful games, but didn't make the ones he's talking about!

Let's think about this in a fairer way. BioWare games aren't "RPGs" either. Look, I'll point out the ways in which they differ from RPG tradition in a mildly hysterical questioning fashion:

Enemies that level with you? Houses that you can't enter? People who you can't click on and talk to, despite having absolutely no reason to do so? You don't wake up in a bed in every game? You can be evil? Little or no random battles?

This is all bloody nonsense, and typical rhetoric from someone who does nothing but promote their game and how excellent it supposedly is, meaning badmouthing every other respected franchise just to get controversy and therefore media coverage. It's a bad case of PR talk, and the fact that people are seriously discussing the comment is just not a good sign.

I don't even own FFXIII and I still think that what Erickson's said here is stupid. Genre is, by definition, a wide concept, that is meant to be open to a great deal of interpretation. Being strict with your categorisation may help with your filing cabinets and paperwork, but it doesn't make any sense in an entertainment context.

Games are more than zeroes and ones, and they can be more than just an RPG or just an Adventure game. That's what combinations are for, BioWare.

 

[ThrashJazzAssassin]

To be fair, though, the term "RPG" covers a ridiculously broad array of games: games based heavily on tabletop RPG systems, games that allow character customisation, games that allow weapon and skill upgrades, games that don't allow you to roleplay your character at all but still use an experience points system, etc. It's sometimes hard to tell what type of game something is if it's just described as "an RPG" or "containing RPG elements". Perhaps someone ought to start drawing a line and come up with clearer terminology.

Besides, if Squenix themselves mentioned that they weren't really going for an RPG feel, why does it matter if someone else points it out?

 

[GhostLad]

Well, I for one agree that FF13 doesn't fit the typical RPG mold. Succinctly put, mainly because you have no control over how you react to the story unfolding around you. I don't think you need to be able to change or affect said story for it to be an RPG, but you should be able to decide how your characters react to it.

In elaboration, consider a playthrough of FF13: There is no point in the game where the player can in the slightest affect how the characters behave or feel. Their personalities and relationshyips come predefined and evolve along the same path each time you play the game. You cannot, f.inst. decide that Lightning should smack Snow more in the face than she already does (much as you might want to).

You have a limited choice in what weapons to use. It's limited and of small, though at least some, consequence, but it's there. I'll grant them that one.

Your ability progression is, at best, an illusion of choice. During every chapter you will, some time before the end of it, have enough CP to buy everything. The prerequisites on the crystal grid also means that bar a few key abilities, you are going down the same path, and in each playthrough, at about the same pace every time. The prohibitive cost of the unlockable roles means you are deliberately handicapping yourself if you stray outside the predetermined roles. The setup of required roles for living through fights also means that the choice of which characters to use is down to a handful of viable combinations.

More to the last point: what characters you use, when you get to choose, has absolutely no bearing on what happens in the story or how they react to it.

Replayability is a major attraction of RPG games: you want to try the same story and do it in a different way. It doesn't have to be a completely different story that comes out of it, but you want to see all the little differences that comes with f.inst trying to be a bastard instead of a good guy. FF13 doesn't have this.

To make a quick contrast to Mass Effect 2: You do indeed play through the same story every time. The weapons are quite restricted, and with DLC, it's pretty easy to get "the best ones" early on. The rate you aquire research also means that the progression is going to be very similar each time around.

However, a key difference is that you have control of how Shppard reacts to events. You can push that guy out the window, or appeal to his common sense. Your choice, and yes the end results are more or less the same (you find the guy you were looking for), but the player feels he has impact on the story and how the character develops. The fact that you save the galaxy (for a bit) each time is really a minor point. It's about what the road there looks like. And playing as a renegade rather that paragon is a noticably different road.

Mass Effect 2 and FF13 are both brilliant games in my mind. One of them is just more adventure game than rpg.

 

[Steampunk Viking]

An interesting arguement from Bioware there. Been reading a couple of select posts (some I feel went off the subject slightly, but that's besides the point) and my view is, yes, if you want to go with the dictionary term "Role Playing Game", you're right, Final Fantasy XIII is an RPG, but then so would Super Mario Galaxy, Quake 4, Bayonetta, God of War etc. You're playing the role of a character, albeit several different characters as opposed to one.

It's been said many times that the RPG genre is the loosest defined genre in gaming, and I whole heartedly agree with that. Final Fantasy XIII is similar to most Final Fantasy games but falls over on some of the core values. Would I say it's a typical Japanese RPG? Most certainly, it just lacks certain components that are often associated with that sub-genre.

But I think the word "typical" is what pretty much defines this debate. The Japanese and Western cultures have different takes on the genre. Ignoring cultural references, would I agree with Bioware? Yes and no, and I will tell you all why.

Roleplaying Games began in pen and paper format, such as Dungeons and Dragons and Runequest, and so this is where I will take my logic from. These were defined by taking part in a prewritten, expansive world in the form of a made up avatar. Contrary to popular beliefs, levelling doesn't necessarily make something an "RPG", Runequest didn't use levels for example, but the character always evolves in some way, which Mass Effect 2 and Final Fantasy XIII both tick the boxes on.

Ok, so far so good for both sides, now here's the kicker. In pen and paper RPGs, almost every campaign involves making decisions, and it in turn affects the world around them and evolves the story (it's usually dependant on them too). Mass Effect 1 and 2 both do this to great effect. This is what sets the genre apart from, say, shooters such as Bioshock, which utilise a levelling system but aren't really seen as an RPG generally. You are in a world that feels alive, where you change what happens and affect what happens around you. Final Fantasy tends to barely scrape the barrel on this, but that by no means is necessarily a bad thing.

In the end, it comes down to personal opinion and what you determine an RPG is, I've just thrown out an idea to think about. Would I say Final Fantasy XIII is an RPG in a Japanese cultural sense? Most definitely. Would I say it's a defining title in the genre as a whole? Not quite.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

Does it have stats and leveling as a focus in combat? Then it's an RPG.

Unless he's also saying that stuff like Diablo and MMORPGs aren't RPGs?

Besides, when the genre was named, anything with dialogue and a plot above "Eat Dots" was pretty much an RPG.

The fact that you think that the genre was named in a time when games were even so advanced as Pacman shows how little you really know about RPGs. Granted I'm not some Pen & Paper vet who's been playing RPGs since before you could even wipe your own ass, but at least I know my own hobby's history before I start spouting my mouth about it.

As for your definition of what makes a game an RPG, I think you basically just described approximately 70% of games currently on the market. Heck, by your definition, I could argue that Modern Warfare is an RPG. Now, I haven't played Final Fantasy since FFX sullied my faith in the series, and FFX2 did to my faith in the series what a rock does to glass. So I won't lie and claim that I've played FFXIII (though I'll admit that early trailers made it look promising before the later trailers came along and spoiled it), and I also won't claim whether or not this guy is right. But let's at least admit one thing: This guy probably knows just a little bit more about RPGs than either you or I. So you can have your opinion, but if it's this guy's opinion that FFXIII isn't RPGish, then I'm probably going to take the word of the guy who's had a hand in making RPGs over the guy who doesn't even know how RPGs got started in the first place.

I'm a fan of Bioware, but aren't they also the people who are refusing to address homosexuality in Mass Effect 2 because they consider it like a PG-13 action movie?

It's more that they don't have homosexuality in Mass Effect 2 because they felt it doesn't fit with the character of Commander Shepard. Frankly you'd probably have more of a point in claiming Bioware to be homophobic if it wasn't for the fact that their other major title currently on the market does allow for same-sex partnering. So if you're really that pent-up to see some man-on-man action in your games, just play the other Bioware game.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

I disagree completely because only in the most infamous FF (X-2) was choice and even character building really a focus. I can't see where this has gone off the rails.

FF's have always defined their RPGness as turn based combat, high customization of equipment, story based focus and creating a huge new world.

FFXIII does all this exactly like it's predecessors. The only real difference is a lack of towns and sidequests, which I don't feel define a JRPG but are far more valid

Firstly, you're only about half-right about customization of equipment. From Final Fantasy 7 and upward the only equipment you got was one piece of armor, one weapon, and maybe a couple accessories (though even those went away eventually). In fact, the only FF titles that have any customization in it's gear was FF2 and 6 where any character could be geared-out any way you wanted them to. In every other FF title your character's gear was based purely on his class.

I would also like to point-out that you're rather wrong about jRPGs not being defined by exploration and side quests. Nearly EVERY jRPG I've ever played has had plenty of exploration. In fact, I can't think of a single jRPG that was lacking in side quests and exploration. Granted I haven't played many modern jRPGs, so maybe they've taken a rather sharp downhill slide with the PS2 era, but having played countless jRPGs during their glory days, I think I'd know a thing or two about what defines them and what made them fun. If you're telling me that a jRPG isn't defined by some level of exploration, then I'm telling you that I'm glad I stopped playing them after FFX.

 

[ArmorArmadillo]

Role Playing Game is kind of a dumb term linguistically, because you're playing a role in every game. I have no idea what it actually is supposed to refer to...games where you uprade character equipment? Why does that mean you are playing a role more than...say...guiding Chell through an Aperture science obstacle course.

This Bioware quote is suffering from a bit of annoying pretentiousness...I hate FFXIII as much as the next guy, but it seems like they're not actually critiquing it so much as they're pointing out random features that it doesn't have and trying to label it as a non-rpg to try and push away fans who care about such labels.

 

[Echo136]

I would have to agree with this. Final Fantasy may have stats and such but the roleplaying aspect of the games has long since disappeared from the series. They are action-adventure games.

 

[Kanima423]

All I have to say is ... I feel like I watched a really bland movie that I had no idea what was going on in it. After about two hours I turned it off, I haven't even bothered with it since. SE needs to take a look at their selves in a mirror and decide if they want to make CGI Movie games or good RPGs, like FF6 or FF7, heck didn't care for FF8's story but the battle system was solid!

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Honestly, if you define RPG as a game where you can evolve your character into a different role, he's right.

In ME/DAO/KOTOR, you can play as a Bad / Neutral / Good guy, and occasionally something in between.
In FF you cannot do that, the main character has a certain story and you can't influence his personality at all.

It doesn't matter that ME/DAO/KOTOR do not have a great many different endings based on your every choice (this is obviously impossible because of constrictions in how you can make a game), the fact that you can influence the main characters personality while you play is enough.


If you define a 'role' as something a certain character takes on stat / build / class wise, then FF is an RPG however.

But then again, many games would be.

 

[PsychoV3nom]

FFXIII is not a RGP, Because A) you make no real decisions. B)Characters don't evole.and C) It is completely linear. Thats not to say that it is a bad game its just not a RGP

FFXIII Y=mx+b

RPG Y= ax² + bx + c

 

[Aura Guardian]

As I said in another thread: Erickson can shut the fuck up.

Opening this can of worms is NOT what I needed today. Stupid garbage debate that never does anything but produce MASSIVE flames.

That's all I'm going to say even though I know this thread is going to irritate me. Maybe I'll just ignore it.

Bottom line:
Bioware = -25 pts for douchebaggery.

Final Fantasy XIII is an RPG (FF is one of the oldest RPG franchises - methinks Bioware is just trying to create some controversy to get attention).

JRPGs are RPGs. WRPGs are RPGs. Can't everyone just get along?

Fix'd.
What you said reminded me of the G4 controversy between Mario platforming and Ratchet platforming. Morgan Webb said that a Mario platforming is for kids and Ratchet platforming is for adult because it has guns and a story. That site had so much traffic because people were making account just to curse her out.

 

[kordo]

FFXIII is a brave title by Square-Enix. They took a punt at trying something new - deviating greatly from their typical FF RPG template. A lot of people like it and a lot of people hate it. It won't go down as a classic but I don't think it's the worst in the series (Mystic Quest anyone??). I just think it is a really brave effort - hopefully FF Versus XIII will be a HUGE improvement and put Square-Enix back up the RPG ladder.

 

[Fraught]

You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe?

No, they're RPGs, silly. You are just Role Playing the lead character. In Game format.

/does not play many RPGs

No. As an avid defender as JRPGs. This defense is wrong. Saying that you are playing a "pre-defined" role makes nearly every game an RPG.

Well, if you define the words one-by-one, that's actually what it is. All games are RPGs.

And I think the universal two phrases to describe an RPG should be character 'customization' and 'progression', and by progression I mean levels, equipment etc.

Actually, taking by the definitions of the words that make up the name, I'd say Bioware's games are less RPGs, since you don't so much as play a role, as you create one. The more freedom and choice you have, the less it is playing a specific role.

 

[CK76]

It's a game, one I enjoy much like I enjoyed Dragon Age. I don't care what you call it, I call it fun.

 

[NoElixir]

There is no proper definition for a Role-playing Game regarding Video games itself. If you're attempting to define the genre, then you'll only encompass a myriad of games since the definition itself seems to be a much broader scope. Playing the role of another character is one of the very first features we are almost able to do in any game today. The genre is open to interpretation and it's mostly a coalescence of other gameplay elements outside of itself. We commonly draw a demarcation on the genre and have two types of RPGs with their first letter reflecting their cultural influences: WRPGs and JRPGs. A western Role-playing game will more than likely focus on the character as an agent, the ability to actually affect world around them and change the faint presence of destiny. The narrative in many western RPGs follow the same template: The world revolves around the actions of the character and fate is weaved by the player themselves through decisions. The storyline is usually loose and inconsistent when this type of freedom is given. You'll build your character through a progression or skill system while either forging or buying weapons.

The paramount element in Japanese Role-playing games is narrative over gameplay. Developers usually have 'a story to tell' which contributes to the reason of orchestrating most aspects of the plot. Social structure is usually dominate and it manifests itself through your typical 'rebellious party' comprised of various characters. Developers utilize this type of RPG to deliver an enticing plot with character dynamism (usually predetermined). With regards to the vicissitudes of the Final Fantasy series, players were never given the direct option to 'create a character' (other than change the character's name in older titles). In some instalments, players had control of the character's stat growth and abilities. These instruments all coalesce to give us an imitation of Character Progression under our guidance. Clearly, the comments regarding 'create a character' was inaccurate and ignorant. In the end, both types are structured differently, but XIII's influence can obviously be seen as a story being told. Despite the fact that Kitase mentioned there was no specific RPG Template they were following, people still choose to bash the game out of weirdness. (In my opinion, I thought Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI implemented both types of RPGs exceptionally).

Time changes and it waits for no one. I'd rather not play an RPG with the same template and the fan base of Final Fantasy is polarizing. There are nutcases impugning the directors and writers themselves with the audacity to complain about the direction of a series. Whether fans like it or not, success is measured by revenue.

Blah..

 

[The Bandit]

Im sorry, I love Bioware and all, but they need to shut up.

Square might have missed the bullseye on ff13 a bit, but its still a awesome game with a awesome story.

Dont insult your elders, if you get what i mean.

I knew someone would say this.

Explain how BioWare insulted Final Fantasy in anyway.

PROTIP: You can't.

 

[AndreyC]

There is no proper definition for a Role-playing Game regarding Video games itself. If you're attempting to define the genre, then you'll only encompass a myriad of games since the definition itself seems to be a much broader scope. Playing the role of another character is one of the very first features we are almost able to do in any game today. The genre is open to interpretation and it's mostly a coalescence of other gameplay elements outside of itself. We commonly draw a demarcation on the genre and have two types of RPGs with their first letter reflecting their cultural influences: WRPGs and JRPGs. A western Role-playing game will more than likely focus on the character as an agent, the ability to actually affect world around them and change the faint presence of destiny. The narrative in many western RPGs follow the same template: The world revolves around the actions of the character and fate is weaved by the player themselves through decisions. The storyline is usually loose and inconsistent when this type of freedom is given. You'll build your character through a progression or skill system while either forging or buying weapons.

The paramount element in Japanese Role-playing games is narrative over gameplay. Developers usually have 'a story to tell' which contributes to the reason of orchestrating most aspects of the plot. Social structure is usually dominate and it manifests itself through your typical 'rebellious party' comprised of various characters. Developers utilize this type of RPG to deliver an enticing plot with character dynamism (usually predetermined). With regards to the vicissitudes of the Final Fantasy series, players were never given the direct option to 'create a character' (other than change the character's name in older titles). In some instalments, players had control of the character's stat growth and abilities. These instruments all coalesce to give us an imitation of Character Progression under our guidance. Clearly, the comments regarding 'create a character' was inaccurate and ignorant. In the end, both types are structured differently, but XIII's influence can obviously be seen as a story being told. Despite the fact that Kitase mentioned there was no specific RPG Template they were following, people still choose to bash the game out of weirdness. (In my opinion, I thought Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI implemented both types of RPGs exceptionally).

Time changes and it waits for no one. I'd rather not play an RPG with the same template and the fan base of Final Fantasy is polarizing. There are nutcases impugning the directors and writers themselves with the audacity to complain about the direction of a series. Whether fans like it or not, success is measured by revenue.

Blah..

Finally, someone who said something rational and unbiased. That's just pure logic. I've seen so many people in this thread implying that even games like Chrono Trigger shouldn't be called RPGs (no one said this directly, but many said "JRPGs shouldn't be called RPGs". WTF? That's just saying you should't call orange juice orange juice if the juice looks yellow.

I only disagree with the part you said "success is measured by revenue". If you added "commercial" before "success", I'd agree, but games can acheive critical success without achieving commercial success.