BioWare: Final Fantasy XIII is Not an RPG

[McNinja]

Hmm... This exact same topic has popped up on the official Mass Effect boards before.

The definition of "RPG" has become somewhat bastardized over time, since games that were labeled "RPGs" starting changing their formula.

Final Fantasy XIII is a turn-based action-adventure game. Why? because you have next to no choice as how you play your character. Can you allocate points and upgrade your weapons? sure, but that itself does not make FFXIII an RPG.

What does RPG stand for? Role Playing Game, as was pointed out on the first page. A game where the player plays a role. What is missing from this? Oh yeah, the part about playing the character how the player wants to play. Is Gears of War an RPG? well, you're playing a role, are you not? You are indeed, but not how you want to. You have no freedom of choice beyond how to kill the next bad guy. In Mass Effect, you have choice. You can be a magnificent bastard, or you can be a magnificent goody-two-shoes. You can customize the Shepard to how the player wants him/her to look, you can choose a class, upgrade skills, get upgrades, and customize armor, and, above all, choose what you say. Games like Gears or Final Fantasy 13 don't allow much freedom of choice.

And choice is what it all boils down to. Giving the players the freedom of choice. In the grand argument about whether or not an RPG is an RPG or not because it has an inventory and you can upgrade skills and weapons, take a step back and look at the game in it's entirety. Throughout the game, how much choice is allowed? If the answer is "almost none" then it ain't no RPG. If the answer is "quite a bit" then there's a pretty good chance that it is indeed an RPG.

Take Fable, for instance. It is generally considered an RPG. Why? Because of the amount of choice you have (nevermind the distinct lack of dialogue options). You can buy new weapons, you can upgrade spells and skills, and you can go on quests. Oh, I almost forgot: you can slaughter entire towns, merely because you want to. It's the freedom to act how you please that defines the genre, not whether the game has numbers or levels or an inventory in it or not.

 

[DaeDaLuS_015]

I don't know why you people seem to be praising square like they are some godly entity from on high. Bioware made baldur's gate and Neverwinter Nights, true classics and it has to be said final fantasy 13 is a terrible game by anyones standards. After the first 12 hours or so i was actually astounded that square could have got it so wrong. I didn't even bother to complete it the story was that uninteresting so i say fair play Bioware because i wouldn't class final fantasy 13 as an RPG either. A basic RPG requirement is immersion and FFXIII fails at that which in fairness is just the start of it's problems.

 

[XainBushido]

I am sure its almost all been said here. And I can see why someone from Bioware would stab at Final Fantasy XIII. Its the first game in the series to take any form of level control on your character out of your hands. Finding places to grind at least early is almost impossible without lots of back tracking. Talking about Choices in an rpg, when is the last final fantays you made a choice in that mattered outside of accept this name? I mean the games were always based around characters with different personalities and playing the game through their eyes. Thats the rpg element, like someone said on first page its a roleplaying experience.

Not a bioware game where its based off roll playing for dice in stats and other things. Two different style games that clash differently. And nothing personal but in this rpg sense the elements of rpg were taken out of ME II, unlike in Dragon Age where you had a lot of choices in character development I don't recall having much of them in ME II. But thats a different bone to pick. Anyway this is just my piece.

 

[nightwolf667]

Dragon Age: Origins is a LOTR clone in the same sense that LOTR is a clone of old mythology.

Wait... So, the fact that Dragon Age: Origins quite literally visually steals in excruciatingly exact detail major scenes from the LoTR movies makes it not a clone or plagiarist but exactly the same as Tolkien, a Cambridge professor who was extremely well versed in Norse mythology and Anglo-Saxon literature, who very lovingly took themes from something ancient and rebuilt it into something different. Yes, this makes complete sense.

I'm familiar with both Norse mythology and the Irish legends of the sidhe, Loonerinoes and I can see what he took and where he put it, but there is a very major difference between what he did and what Dragon Age: Origins does.

I'd elaborate further, but really. Why bother? You're one of those hip indie trendsters that'll just block out everything that's said to prove how moronic your final question was.

I'm going to block out everything you say to prove how moronic my final question... wait.. what? Not only did you just assume that you're smarter than me (and that your opinions are better) but you also just suggested that I've already closed my ears because you're so obviously right and I'm so obviously wrong.

Now, who's making judgments? You know nothing about me other than the fact that I prefer other RPGs over Bioware and suddenly I'm labeled "hip indie trendster"? How do you know that I wouldn't be interested in an honest discussion with you? Now I'm not, but that's only because that last sentence made absolutely no sense.

Short answer? JRPGs give zero player agency, Bioware gives some player agency and the games you listed give far more agency, but at the expense of polish and mechanics within the RPG, where Bioware excels in my book from any of the examples you have listed.

I don't like Bioware because the writing is bad and they reuse the same characters over and over. (This you will not agree with but it is my opinion after playing every Bioware game since KoTOR.) I like having choices and I don't like being forced to have my character make a moral choice between "a stupid decision" and "a very, very, very stupid decision" like I must do in both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins. Dragon Age: Origins ends up the worse offender because Mass Effect 2 at least gets to say that it's a shooter with RPG elements. And I mean stupid decision, not that I simply don't like the choices presented (which I don't). But the majority of decisions I must make either as Shepherd or a Grey Warden give me the feeling that the character I'm playing has the intellect of 2 and is a rolling, drooling, incompetent moron. (Especially Renegade Shepherd in Mass Effect 2.)

You are allowed your own opinion on the subject, no one said you weren't. But the inclusion of the line "where Bioware excels in my book" suggest that the only opinion you value is your own (or people who think like you) and because it is yours makes it better or more well thought out than mine.

Logic = Fail.

Now go ahead and block out everything I just wrote.

I'm certain that since this is the path you would probably take, I'll feel free to do the same.

 

[jboking]

Wikipedia - Role Playing Video Game

Role-playing video games (RPGs) form a loosely defined genre of computer and video games with origins in pen-and-paper role-playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons, borrowing much of their terminology, settings and game mechanics. The player in RPGs controls one or several adventuring party members fulfilling one or many quests. The major similarities with pen-and-paper games involve developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion.

Both Final Fantasy 13 and Bioware's third-person shooters fit into this category. I don't care for this man's definition and see no reason to consider his opinion one of value.

 

[Snarky Username]

Well, RPGs aren't really RPGSs anymore. "Role-playing-games," in the strictest sense of the word, are games that you play to vicariously live through the main character. In that sense, Final Fantasy has never been an RPG, and the only real RPGs are The Elder Scroll series, Fallout, and Bioware games. Even games like Fable are very iffy. The more widely accepted definition is any game with stats and levels, which is a niche that Final Fantasy fits very much into.

I guess he reason that Final Fantasy is an RPG is that there's not better word for it.

 

[Mr.PlanetEater]

As much as I hate Final Fantasy with a passion, it's an RPG.
RPG is where Leveling, and Character are the main focuses and combat takes a back seat (it's the opposite in adventure games). Making a character doesn't make the game an RPG, I can design a character in Saints Row but is that an RPG? Hell no.

JRPG's have and always will make you as a premade character, but it's still an RPG. WRPG's are where you build a character, but those are still RPG's. It's the same with 3D and 2D platformers still being Platformers despite both parties inclinations towards one view point and the objective's they're still sipping from the platformer cup.

Besides without Final Fantasy (yes I'm dieing inside while typing this sentence) and other turn based games. Video Game RPG's would not exist (Table top would because you know D&D), so Bioware stop saying this bull and be great full there's as big a market in the video game world for RPG's as there is now.

 

[Starke]

I just find it strange that even Square Enix wants to bring Final Fantasy XIII away from being considered an RPG... when there are twelve games before it with most at the top of the RPG game. It's weird!

Any idea why?

Sorry, I don't really have any other idea, dropping the RPG angle entirely just seems... well, weird.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

RPG
Literal Translation: A game where you play a role.

This would be every game.

RPG
General (loose) Translation: A game where you choose the role in great detail.

Hotly Debated

RPG
What I think it should be: A game where I can be the good guy, the bad guy, the neutral guy, the guy working to help both sides, the guy working both sides against each other. Even at that; a game where I can choose not to be the hero, where I can choose to be a tailor, or accountant, or baker, or fisherman, or street bum.

Never made, except maybe the Sims...

Every game has a role to play.
Every game has pre-defined that role to a certain extent.

Why are there 4 pages (at time of writing) arguing about which post-it to stick on a game? It doesn't really matter how we label it... just if we enjoy it, right? Even then, if you don't like it, does it matter if someone else does? If you do like it, does it matter if someone else doesn't?

Apparently many people think so.

Sad.

 

[ItsAPaul]

Does XIII really not have leveling trees, equipment, choices in the AI system, etc? If it doesn't then its not an rpg, but I highly doubt they took the above out of the game since Square Enix usually makes badass leveling trees.

 

[Jaebird]

Despite the presentation of stats and numbers, and leveling, Final Fantasy XIII did not feel like an RPG, to me, at all. It felt more like like a terrible, terrible movie, with pretty pictures and a system vaguely resembling an RPG. It's as if the developers striped out all the things that made an RPG proper (in the Final Fantasy sense), leaving the bare basics, and focused more on a revised (or copied) version the dress-sphere system from Final Fantasy X-2. And also, made a story so convoluted, that they felt the need to insert footnotes instead of bothering to explain things through the game's narrative.

By the time I finally finished the game, I did not care anymore; and that's what I found to be the most disappointing. Final Fantasy XIII is not the same Final Fantasy that introduced me into JRPG's. I don't know what this game is anymore, but it's certainly not an RPG, in my opinion. And don't get me wrong; I chose to give this game a chance, after having heard about the many things people had to say about it. I was even willing to look past the half-assed story in hopes that it would have gotten better near the end. But, alas, it did not.

And don't take this as me hating on Final Fantasy. My gateway RPGs were (aside from Pokemon) Final Fantasy VII, VIII and IX. I liked VII, without over-hyping it; VIII was so-so, and IX is my absolute favorite.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Oh yes, because Mass Effect 2 was really an RPG by comparison.

Final Fantasy XIII is a weird, strange game. I prefer to leave it to the people who actually like that kind of exposition and linearity.

 

[FloodOne]

Saying FF XIII isn't an RPG is sorta wrong because that still indicates that FF XIII is a game, which it isn't. FF XIII is an interactive movie where you run down hallways from cutscene to cutscene. It's somewhat like Heavy Rain but it makes even less sense somehow. It's actually worse than Xenosaga or the MGS series which, until FF13, took the prize for the highest percentage of incomprehensible cutscenes. But FF13 now claims that prize. The former two at least had some game between the movies. Out of the say.. 30hrs it takes to play FF13.. how much of that would you say is actual game? Maybe 10hrs? Probably less.

Probably more, and if you had played the game you would know that. I'm roughly 60 hours into the game, maybe six of it has been watching cutscenes.

That's a far better ratio than some junk like MGS where the game is 25 hours, but the "game" portion is only 5.

 

[Harla]

Meh, original definition of RPG, Role-Playing Game, was that you, the player, were stepping into the shoes of an at least partially predefined character role, and making with it what you wanted, progressing it's story, but actually playing the role as you best saw fit.

That is all. In that sense, a whole lot of games fall into that category that most people would want to put elsewhere. That's fine, put them elsewhere. If you're playing an action-shooter where you can opt for either primary stealth or blood-thirsty overkill, or anyhting in between, and settle on a weapon you prefer using the most out of a bunch of options, then, yeah, sure, you're playing an action-shooter... you're also in a role-playing game.

The term has long been used to label a specific type of game within that, but that doesnt' make it the be all and end all.

FFXIII is not like twelve, which is not like ten, which is not like nine, which is not like eight, which is not like seven, which is not like six, etc... they all share core similarities, and they all continue to share them.

In the case of this series, one of the primary similarities is party/team oriented turn based combat. And they all share that (I hate people who try to say twelve isn't turn based; it IS.) Another common feature is initial linearity, branching out to full freedom only at the final plateau stage of the game (you know the point I mean, incidentally... when you're presented with wha tis essentially a point of no return towards the end of the game). Again, all games in the series share this to varying degrees. (Twelve was probably the most free, as it primarily used boss-gating to lock out the world, which to resourceful players weren't blocks at all... level 12, fighting elvorets in the necrohol for maximillians, anyone?) From all reports, thirteen has been the most drastically lock-in linear thus far, but so what? It still has its plateua stage freedom, like every other FF game.

Choice of character use is another common feature inthe FF series, and always has been in one way or another. In earlier varsion, say, Six and back, your characters grew in a fixed way as they levelled, however you could, one, affect this by various means (take, esper attachment in Six, for example, which often modified your stat growth on level up, as well as teaching you spells related to that esper), and two, choose which characters you liked to use more, from a wide selection (Looking to Six again, a character roster of 14 there, using your choice of 4).

In later versions, character roster has been cut down, in favour of giving you more control directly over character growth. Ten had the sphere-grid (Incidentally, my favourite level-up system to date - allowing choice of character growth through the meat of the game, but with the ability to optimise all characters to the extreme for the high-end optional content by the end if you wished), twelve used the licence board, and sure enough, thirteen has its own system as well, which allows you to move a chacter's growth along the lines that you want to.

Personally, I'm distinctly NOT a fan of only having control of a single character in combat. I prefer to have full control over everyone and have them act only as I instruct them in combat.

So, ultimately, if you take the raw, original definition of RPG, then yes, the whole FF series, including their latest installment, fits that.

If you take the more recent usage referring ot a style of gmaeplay which the Ff series has always been a poster child for, then yes, the latest installment does the same things its predecessors have done.

I'm not a big fan, overall, of the techno-bent direction, I prefer my magic to be magic, and my espers to be summons based on magical ability... rather than some Seifer-wannabe's lesbian motorcycle... but see, here's the thing: It's a role-playing game. I'm stepping into a largely pre-defined world, and assuming the roles of at least partially pre-defined characters. That is the essence of an RPG to me.

-Harla

 

[lacktheknack]

Im sorry, I love Bioware and all, but they need to shut up.

Square might have missed the bullseye on ff13 a bit, but its still a awesome game with a awesome story.

Dont insult your elders, if you get what i mean.

They aren't "insulting" them per se, they're just saying that FFXIII wasn't an RPG. They didn't say it was bad, just that it isn't an RPG.

And they're right. Role Playing Game insinuates that you can make any character you want and see how they fit into the story (see Bethesda RPGs). Final Fantasy XIII is more an adventure game with classic RPG elements than anything else.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

I don't think that developer should be talking. Nor should the creater of this thread be talking either. Nor should anyone in this thread. You cannot put an exact definition on RPG. The japanese have their own definition and westerns have their own as well. It could be having lots of freedom, telling a good story, or having fun. RPG stands for role playing game. You are playing as another person. Any definition could fit into that.

What I dislike more is that people are coming in here just to give their hate for FFXIII and Mass effect. If this is going to be a debate, let's not be little kids about it.

 

[ResiEvalJohn]

IMO, an RPG or JRPG is:

1. Not linear. However, the story should be SOMEWHAT linear, just not the environments or exploration parts.

2. The characters should be controlable, customizable, and contribute different effective strategies to the fighting.

3. Contain various "Grinding" options or sidequests that do not become tiresome, boring, or repetitive.

*Note* Graphics are not really important; gameplay and immersion are important.

For These reasons by my definitions, FFXIII is not an RPG or JRPG. If you want to argue that, then I'd say it's a shitty RPG.

Also, FFXII was a JRPG, but it was a shitty JRPG because it broke rules 2 and 3.

I like to think Final Fantasy died after FFX. The new sequels should have been named differently, not a part of the FF universe.

 

[Composer]

i dont get it
ur given a role
u play it
its a game
rpg
i always thought role was like role in a play or musical character

 

[Starke]

Dragon Age: Origins is a LOTR clone in the same sense that LOTR is a clone of old mythology.

Yeah... see... no. While I can respect most people's opinions. When their opinions are factually inaccurate it stops being an opinion.

Lord of the Rings, the novels, let's be precise about this, are an amalgamation of themes of various Germanic and Norse mythologies set over an analogy of World War I. Now, if you can find me a piece of Norse mythology that deals with industrialized warfare I'll eat my hat. But, I can save you the time and research, it doesn't exist.

Dragon Age isn't a ripoff of the Lord of the Rings novels. About this, you are correct. They're a blatant theft of the film, and its art direction, sometimes down to the level of scenes being lifted shot by shot from the films. In the case of at least one Dragon Age ad, they literally lifted a piece of music by Howard Shore composed for Lord of the Rings, and used it as the sound track, and I do mean literally.

I'd elaborate further, but really. Why bother?

For SCIENCE!

You're one of those hip indie trendsters that'll just block out everything that's said to prove how moronic your final question was.

And, here's your real mistake. Your use of "you're" without defining it precisely means you have effectively addressed this post to anyone on the board that wanders by. I'm being nice here, and I'm not taking you to pieces, but your lack of a specific target for your post means I certainly could.

On a further note, you'd better hope whomever you were addressing this post to doesn't notice, because you've just issued a direct insult against them that is reportable. Unless you know someone on these boards personally, no mater what your opinions, never, ever stoop to making pejorative assumptions like that. Whatever argument you could hope to make is undermined critically and terminally, and you risk the ire of the staff.

Short answer? JRPGs give zero player agency, Bioware gives some player agency and the games you listed give far more agency, but at the expense of polish and mechanics within the RPG, where Bioware excels in my book from any of the examples you have listed.

Without a list of games to work from, and my personal experience with Bioware titles that, admittedly doesn't include the MDK games, is one where any player agency is in fact illusionary.

Let's take Mass Effect for example. While the game presents you with many choices throughout the game play, most of these are in fact irrelevant. Based on cracking open a savegame editor for Mass Effect 2 and analyzing an imported save, only 70 decisions are recorded, from Mass Effect 1, of those a number such as (Citadel: The Fan) chew up multiple (in this case 4) entries to express the possible outcomes, so, out of your forty hours playing Mass Effect, only about 20-30 decisions you've made are even recorded. Only, when you load up Mass Effect from an imported save (not an edited one) the result will always be the same, the game assumes you ended the quest in the same way regardless of what the save game tells it.

While the Fan unlocks an additional mission which takes about ten minutes to play through, in most other cases such as the Noveria and UNC missions these flags only trigger bits of text that are emailed to Shepard through the course of the game, or cause pieces of background audio to play. But, at no point is there any substantive change in the game. If you killed the Council or saved them, the only difference will be if they talk to you when you return to the Citadel in 2.

If it seems like I'm harping on this, its because Mass Effect told you you'd be able to change the galaxy based on your decisions, but when the time came, Bioware backed out. The player doesn't really have any independent agency, you're still going to play out the same story that Bioware wants you to, regardless of your choices.

Where all this is going is, I'm sorry, you've been blinded by an illusion. It's a well constructed one, but Bioware games have no real freedom, at all. Games exist that do give the player more agency, often at the expense of the plot, for example Oblivion, but, the Bioware games are very strictly regimented experiences that run on rails you cannot escape, where any control over your path is an illusion.

Now go ahead and block out everything I just wrote.

You first.