I think as an artistic medium, gaming is bound to evolve. Who here would actually be happier if Bioware - instead of making new things - had been rehashing Baulders Gate for the past 10 years? Nostalgia is fine, but you have to see that playing the same old games over and over would'nt go anywhere so whats the point? I think that Bioware is one of the best developers around right now and i throughly enjoy the ME and DA games.
Bioware...*sigh*
- Thread starter dolgion
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I get what you're saying and I sort of agree with it at a basic level, but I think your analogy leaves a lot to be desired. A single fighter in Baldur's gate is just part of the 6 part team, plus there is the entire meta game of choosing the appropriate equipment, appropriate classes and level ups in different classes and spells. It's actually quite deep in terms of the amount of thinking and planning that goes into the game before you even begin a combat encounter.evilthecat said:
The same is not true for Mass Effect 2, and certainly not for Dragon Age 2, which I actually find more disappointing since it's "supposed" to be more of a traditional RPG. Really, they have massively regressed from DA:O to DA:2, for example take character attributes:
In DA:2 you get 3 attribute points at each level up that you should be able to spread across something like 6 attributes, each attribute having a different derived outcome for your character. Sounds great, but in practice, each character class has to use equipment, which (surprisingly enough) is usually restricted to either a character class, or requires 2 out of those 6 attribute points in order to use. So, if you are a warrior, well I hope you enjoy putting all your points into STR and CON until you're almost done with the game, otherwise you will never be able to use most of the loot you find. Same goes for the other classes as well and their respective "class attributes". (Here's a fun idea - try building a blood mage in DA:2 and using HP as your mana pool - you can do it, so long as you're willing to restrict yourself to equipment with laughably low willpower requirements to use, which means generally stuff far below your level and taking half of the fun, ergo loot acquisition, out of the game)
This is just poor game design and I'm more than willing to bet it came about by a desire to cater for the lowest common denominator and the end result is a shallow system that is actually easier for a novice gamer to screw up if they aren't paying attention - for example, a younger friend of mine got almost to the end of the first act before he realized his warrior would never be able to dual wield in DA:2 because the appropriate weapons were restricted to an ability that he'll never posses, regardless of if his attributes met the requirements for the equipment.
Frankly, I'm not a fan of this at all. Bethesda/Obsidian managed to do a far better job with the SPECIAL system from Fallout in terms of making it more accessible yet still providing depth and while I don't know if we can compare sales across titles here as easily (ergo: I don't have the numbers in front of me), you'd be hard pressed to argue that FO:3 and FO:NV were anything but huge commercial successes.
Anyway, I actually think that DA:2 is a mediocre game, which for a company with a reputation like Bioware, makes it a bad game. It's easily one of the worst in their recent catalog and what makes it even more frustrating is that it didn't need to be so bad. They made several gameplay decisions that seem completely unjustified, even considering the claim that they wanted to make it more "action oriented".
Right now I'm at the point where a new Bioware title has gone from "Must buy on sight" to actually wondering what the quality will be like. For someone like me who has been a huge fan of theirs for almost 2 decades, I think that would give them pause.
I can't really blame them. Seeing all the great RPG studios of the 90s go bankrupt had to be pretty traumatizing. Black Isle, 3DO/NWC, Interplay, Troika, Origin. Yeah, I can't blame them for wanting to avoid the fate of being a niche, hardcore RPG developer.bussinrounds said:
I don't hate Bioware, I respect them a loooooot, for being the company that saved the RPG genre in the 90's, and because RPGs are my favorite type of games I place my hopes in Bioware (also Bethesda). And yes, I'm ALL for evolution. I wouldn't want them to copy Baldur's Gate for ever and ever. I just think that their take on innovating the genre is just wrong. I care about that company dammit, and that's why I complain and voice my concerns. I don't like the direction they take, so I'd like them to come clean and just admit they don't really care about RPGs or change their direction.JonnyC said:
I say fuck everybody - I still enjoy BioWare for their games. Sure, DA2 may not quite be as grand in scale as the first game, but at least I can go into a combat scenario without falling asleep (and before anyone starts, yes, I grew up on "twitch" action games; relying on numbers is too luck-based).
I must be the weird exception that plays BioWare games for their narratives.
In that respect, DA:O disappointed me in comparison to BG2, because Ferelden isn't nearly as interesting as Faerûn. ME2 disappointed me in comparison to ME, since Cerberus and the Collectors were unnecessary and stupid. I'll agree that they haven't made anything as good as BG2, but I don't think anyone has. The notion that their new games are inferior to their old games because they're 'easier' just sounds like elitist bullshit.
The thing is, D&D rules don't translate all that well to a video game. You'll notice this pretty quickly if you roll a mage in BG1 and find that you can only cast one spell before resting for the first four chapters or so. That's not "real" difficulty. That's just annoying. There's a lot of deep tactical combat in those games, but if I have give up an ounce of that to get away from some of the tiresome nonsense (I'm sure it enhances immersion for you PnP players, that's fine) carried over from D&D, then I'm okay with that.
As long as they can still use it to tell a story, I really don't care.
ME2 has some troubling implications on that front (Really? Project Lazarus?), but since I've already alienated half of you by claiming that DA2 is superior to DA:O, I think I'll leave it at that.
In that respect, DA:O disappointed me in comparison to BG2, because Ferelden isn't nearly as interesting as Faerûn. ME2 disappointed me in comparison to ME, since Cerberus and the Collectors were unnecessary and stupid. I'll agree that they haven't made anything as good as BG2, but I don't think anyone has. The notion that their new games are inferior to their old games because they're 'easier' just sounds like elitist bullshit.
The thing is, D&D rules don't translate all that well to a video game. You'll notice this pretty quickly if you roll a mage in BG1 and find that you can only cast one spell before resting for the first four chapters or so. That's not "real" difficulty. That's just annoying. There's a lot of deep tactical combat in those games, but if I have give up an ounce of that to get away from some of the tiresome nonsense (I'm sure it enhances immersion for you PnP players, that's fine) carried over from D&D, then I'm okay with that.
As long as they can still use it to tell a story, I really don't care.
ME2 has some troubling implications on that front (Really? Project Lazarus?), but since I've already alienated half of you by claiming that DA2 is superior to DA:O, I think I'll leave it at that.
JonnyC, Frig the one voice in here I'd have to agree with... Yes the old games rocked, but guess what, they wanted to try new stuff. I mean... did you think ME was supposed to be a huge, in-depth tactical point whatever? No, they said right at the outset it was gonna be a shooter with RPG like qualities. For their stories, yes there's a rather limited outset of choices, but they have a nice story they want to tell, as opposed to something like, say... Fallout where there's a skeleton of a main story and... well you can do whatever you want, but there's always that high chance you'll forget what you're doing 20 hours in. There's camps of folks who like either or both areas, the guided route or the faffing about plains.
To be honest, I've never played Baldur's, never heard of Bioware for a while. I've played both Kotor's, and they've taken me a while to get into, the story could have been told more accessibly and the gameplay could have been better, so on and so forth. I absolutely enjoy the hell out of ME2, the Mass Effect universe has replaced my old nostalgic views of original Star Wars as my favorite Sci Fi series, yada yada, and you know what? I just like different things than you.
I think the problem here is you want the game specifically tailored to what you want it to be, and all I can say is... well... Tough jerky. Honestly, I can't tell WHAT you want, you've been so vague about all this, only barely citing buyers incentive and the old stuff is always better. What exactly are you going on about, specifics man.
Also, You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means...
To be honest, I've never played Baldur's, never heard of Bioware for a while. I've played both Kotor's, and they've taken me a while to get into, the story could have been told more accessibly and the gameplay could have been better, so on and so forth. I absolutely enjoy the hell out of ME2, the Mass Effect universe has replaced my old nostalgic views of original Star Wars as my favorite Sci Fi series, yada yada, and you know what? I just like different things than you.
I think the problem here is you want the game specifically tailored to what you want it to be, and all I can say is... well... Tough jerky. Honestly, I can't tell WHAT you want, you've been so vague about all this, only barely citing buyers incentive and the old stuff is always better. What exactly are you going on about, specifics man.
Also, You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means...
I can see how your afraid they are going in the wrong direction, but the best way for a developer to see their impact is in a) sales figures and b) reviews, both of which are very positive in their favor. In the grand scheme of things either RPGs will go in a new direction, or what were seeing now will be considered a "misstep" in their history.
EDIT: meant to quote dolgion here, still new sorry
EDIT: meant to quote dolgion here, still new sorry
Dude, they freaking wrote the book on storytelling in videogames. I'm fairly certain that there is a Chanty of Light somewhere in the world. It would be a huge honor to work at Bioware. The problem is that people are never appreciative of what you give them. The combat in Dragon Age 2 was pretty good, the only things I would change in combat is that there should be more AoE pushback spells and absolutely NO BUTTF******** SPIDERS!!! It also couldn't hurt to spice up some of the romance scenes. They had to rush it DA 2, that's why it's "shabby" ya troll. So they did ONE bad game and it's," oh Bioware, how hard you have fallen,"? What knida logic is that? That's like crucifying J.K. Rowling for writing one crummy HP novel. The "actionyfying" is due to the cesspool of FPS and other grit shooters that make gamers desire action that's hits quick and fast, you'll never see a hardcore FPS guy playing a turn-based RPG. Sure, combats a little out there, but its the one game where I can get up close to bad guys as a Mage and do damage. Just have some freaking faith man, you're behaving like God just abandoned you because of a few unlucky weeks.
I like Bioware's recent work but i have to disagree with the 'it's just nostalgia' idea. Baldur's Gate and II are awesome games and I have them installed on my pc. Your missing out if you haven't played them.
Um... do you have a problem with that?bussinrounds said:
Addendum: And what do you mean "I'm the type of person BioWare caters to now?" I've been playing their games since fucking MDK2.
This is why I'm glad I'm a fervent optimist. If a game is fun for me, it has done its job well. I liked the Story in DA2. I liked the combat. I liked ME2, a lot. I like RPGs, and I think Bioware still does them better than anyone else (except for maybe Bethesda). I like Bioware, and have faith that they will continue to make great games.
All you naysayers are as bad as the vocal zealots that cause everyone to panic ever decade or so saying the world is going to end.
All you naysayers are as bad as the vocal zealots that cause everyone to panic ever decade or so saying the world is going to end.
Just click on Quote and it will appearJonnyC said:I can see how your afraid they are going in the wrong direction, but the best way for a developer to see their impact is in a) sales figures and b) reviews, both of which are very positive in their favor. In the grand scheme of things either RPGs will go in a new direction, or what were seeing now will be considered a "misstep" in their history.
EDIT: meant to quote dolgion here, still new sorry
BTW I agree with you and Terran.I happen to love RPGs and at the moment Bioware is my favorite Developer aside from Twisted Pixel. Also more people playing games and making games more available to those who are more causal isn't a bad thing. The Causal gamers cash help fund the more risky projects.
Truth of the matter is people are going to ***** either way. There are just as many people that like DA2 as hate it, most of us are just too busy playing the game to argue. Half of the problem is the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia and the other is that everyone expects every game to be tailored just for them in their special little world.
Honestly, i'm getting tired of forumites opinions on bioware.
Every -single- game since Baldur's Gate 2 has garnered a whole lot of backlash.
Do you remember how -angry- people were about KOTOR? How dumbed down it would need to be to get on consoles, how the gameplay would be awful, about how it was too linear?
Jump forward to Jade empire, and people were getting angry about how the rpg elements were gone because you had to hit buttons to attack.
Jump forward to Mass Effect, and people were jumping at their throats about turning rpgs into gears of war clones.
Jump forward to DA:O, and it's not living up to BG:2, it's a Lord of the Rings storyline, the complaints about limiting the classes to the three archetypes. And of course, the endless complaining of the "Brutal combat" selling point.
Jump forward to ME:2, and it's about the inventory changes and skill removal.
Now we're at DA:2, and it's about the consolization, anime flips in combat, and reused dungeons.
I've really enjoyed my time with every single one of these games, I -think- you could to, if you could stop comparing every single one to its predecessors. Either way, it's really becoming wearying to keep hearing this stuff every time they release a new game.
Every -single- game since Baldur's Gate 2 has garnered a whole lot of backlash.
Do you remember how -angry- people were about KOTOR? How dumbed down it would need to be to get on consoles, how the gameplay would be awful, about how it was too linear?
Jump forward to Jade empire, and people were getting angry about how the rpg elements were gone because you had to hit buttons to attack.
Jump forward to Mass Effect, and people were jumping at their throats about turning rpgs into gears of war clones.
Jump forward to DA:O, and it's not living up to BG:2, it's a Lord of the Rings storyline, the complaints about limiting the classes to the three archetypes. And of course, the endless complaining of the "Brutal combat" selling point.
Jump forward to ME:2, and it's about the inventory changes and skill removal.
Now we're at DA:2, and it's about the consolization, anime flips in combat, and reused dungeons.
I've really enjoyed my time with every single one of these games, I -think- you could to, if you could stop comparing every single one to its predecessors. Either way, it's really becoming wearying to keep hearing this stuff every time they release a new game.
If you play on hard, you will never be able to beat most encounters by "mashing buttons." I am very tired of this button mashing argument, you'll never beat a single boss doing such a thing, and on the pc it plays exactly like its predecessor sans the isometric view. Do I prefer the isometric view, you bet I do.But with this it plays just like KOTOR did. I liked KOTOR.bussinrounds said:
