Bioware...*sigh*
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I agree, there has and always will be people who are dissatisfied with their games for one reason or another this is nothing new.loremazd said:
However Dragon Age 2 has gotten more backlash than i have ever seen towards a Bioware game and Ive been a fan since Baulders 2.
I tend think that the people who bash Me2 are nuts but I've seen valid concerns with DA2.
The fact of the matter is that there's still no one who makes games like Bioware. No one. And I like the games they make a lot.
It's true that those games have changed a bit. With the addition of intricately designed character models, full voice acting, and scenes designed with a more cinematic eye, of necessity the sheer volume of variety a single game can provide is lessened. But games like Mass Effect, Jade Empire, and Knights of the Old Republic still manage to envision far richer characters and more fully realized settings than most games even attempt to handle.
If you see things that concern you in Bioware's current direction, certainly you have every right to bring them up and hope they're addressed. There may be some truth to the idea that DA2's design changes came out of either a desire to conform to their target market's desires or pressures from above from EA or both. But I would hesitate to casually declare Bioware a lost cause over the controversies of DA2 alone- a game which notably, despite its pursuing shadows, is still getting a lot of very good reviews and seems to be doing pretty well for itself.
It's true that those games have changed a bit. With the addition of intricately designed character models, full voice acting, and scenes designed with a more cinematic eye, of necessity the sheer volume of variety a single game can provide is lessened. But games like Mass Effect, Jade Empire, and Knights of the Old Republic still manage to envision far richer characters and more fully realized settings than most games even attempt to handle.
If you see things that concern you in Bioware's current direction, certainly you have every right to bring them up and hope they're addressed. There may be some truth to the idea that DA2's design changes came out of either a desire to conform to their target market's desires or pressures from above from EA or both. But I would hesitate to casually declare Bioware a lost cause over the controversies of DA2 alone- a game which notably, despite its pursuing shadows, is still getting a lot of very good reviews and seems to be doing pretty well for itself.
Unfortunately, scaling enemies to fit the level of your party makes any feeling of progress vanish. It didn't work in Oblivion and it doesn't work in Dragon Age 2. What's the point of a bigger health meter and more abilities when street gangs continue to be your equal even at level 20 and beyond?
You never get the feeling of having become truly powerful, nor do you have any epic enemies to work towards. Everything is neatly scaled to your level so you can keep hacking and slashing without giving much thought to anything.
The ridiculous spawning of enemies in waves kills immersion even further and removes any idea of a tactical approach to situations.
I liked DA2 for some of its stuff, mostly the character writing, but the combat really was very boring and tedious.
You never get the feeling of having become truly powerful, nor do you have any epic enemies to work towards. Everything is neatly scaled to your level so you can keep hacking and slashing without giving much thought to anything.
The ridiculous spawning of enemies in waves kills immersion even further and removes any idea of a tactical approach to situations.
I liked DA2 for some of its stuff, mostly the character writing, but the combat really was very boring and tedious.
Seriously? ANOTHER BioWare thread? C'mon people, aren't there other things to moan about? Whilst DA2 wasn't their best outing it is by no means a bad game!
OT: Some people like their new direction, others don't. Personally, whilst I do miss the old titles (Seriously - JADE EMPIRE SEQUEL NOW PLZ) I find their new offerings fantastic (Mass Effect especially ^^).
OT: Some people like their new direction, others don't. Personally, whilst I do miss the old titles (Seriously - JADE EMPIRE SEQUEL NOW PLZ) I find their new offerings fantastic (Mass Effect especially ^^).
Personally, I love Bioware's games. I've been a fan since KOTOR (one of my all time favorite games) and I love both the ME and DA series. And I loved both ME2 and DA2. They were fun to me. Were there things I missed, yeah course. I missed the gun customization from ME. I missed the races and back stories of DA:O. But I got over it and had fun playing them.
I never had a chance to play BG, so maybe I just don't understand the hate on Bioware. If you don't like their games, than don't play them. It seems simple to me.
I never had a chance to play BG, so maybe I just don't understand the hate on Bioware. If you don't like their games, than don't play them. It seems simple to me.
It's not that DA2 was crap and all of a sudden I lost my faith. Nonononononno. I've seen the steady regression in every single game ever since BG2. Neverwinter Nights, wasn't as good, but was good. KotoR was alright, even better than NWN, but it now became more and more of a canned experience. The game writing was top notch, and that's what saved it for me. Jade Empire was fun, but nowhere near as epic as the earlier games. Mass Effect was like the logical next step and it's good. I reiterate, those games are all good. Then with Dragon Age, suddenly they say "you know what? We admit we haven't been releasing games that really speak to the fans of the traditional style of RPGs, so here you go, we're making this epic game to succeed Baldur's Gate. It's original, fantasy with orcs and dragons, it's gonna be awesome. And I liked it, but it still wasn't nowhere near what they had achieved earlier. DA2 is just a weird sudden step into the ME2 direction when they promised something different.Hectix777 said:
Everybody who likes Bioware for the games they make now, that's cool! I'm not hating on you. We have different tastes, and that's normal. I just feel let down because Bioware is one of the few surviving companies that really cared for RPGs back in the day, and they act like the still care, but all they want is to get new audiences instead of working to improve on the traditional RPGs.
@MisguidedTerran
You wanted concrete suggestions, right? Alright:
I'll start off with Ultima 7, a game I am playing right now for the first time ever.
U7 is pretty amazing if you consider it was released in 1992. It had a large game world. It's a seamless world, meaning you can travel anywhere without having to load new maps (except the dungeons ofc), which technologically is an amazing feat. It's like with the Elder Scrolls 3 and 4. So, the NPCs in that game have a daily schedule, they eat, work, sleep etc. So that means there is also a day and night cycle. Also, the game writing is just super good. Every single NPC I have talked to has had their own custom dialog, their own personality that really shines through. The quests are also very interesting, and overall story is as well. The themes in the game about virtues, how people can be manipulated by cults in the mold of scientology, and other stuff like that can get really thought-provoking. I am not through with the game yet, but I'm enjoying it. The problems I see for the modern gamer are an unusual perspective, which one will eventually become used to, lack of a quest journal (you have to take your own notes) and horribly inventory UI (you just gotta learn to deal with it). But the core qualities (lively and detailed world that is fun to explore, great writing) still hold up to this day.
About BG2: that game was HUGE. It's not just that the world itself is big in scale. There was so much to discover, quests would take you days sometimes even though they had nothing to do with the main quest. There was just so much attention to detail and the passion of the developers shined through. Then you'd play the game again, discovering other portions and different endings. The D&D ruleset for all it's incompatibilities had a very deep class system. And Bioware did that justice by creating enough content to make playing them worthwhile, there were just more possibilities to role-play, as limited as it is without an actual dungeon master. The world wasn't as dynamic as U7's, but it didn't feel static, because there was just simply SO MUCH quality content to see, so exploration and simple sidequesting was rewarding and felt like you're really adventuring.
But still, these games are nowhere near perfect. I think RPGs are inherently handicapped with the technology we have today. Technology not as in hardware, but as in AI systems for example, or procedural generation. Imagine an RPG where you have actual meaningful choices. You're not limited to role-play in the few instances that the designers give you a chance to make a decision. Imagine, for example, this scenario:
You break into an NPCs house in the middle of the night, robbing all the money he has. He needs to sell his house to pay his debts because he lost all his savings. Also, his wife leaves him and he becomes an alcoholic because his world fell apart. You chose to do the "normal" RPG thing: to loot an NPC's house, but your actions now bear real consequences.
Or yet another example:
A mining village has been in conflict with a troll tribe that lives in the mountains. They systematically hunt down the trolls. You decide to side with the trolls, and one day sabotage the mining operations by spreading a poison that only harms humans which you found somewhere else. The trolls now have a deep admiration for you and the human villagers not only can't mine anymore, their whole economy inevitably collapses and it becomes a ghost town. All this NOT being static, but just a consequence of your actions, calculated by superior AI systems and simulation of economy and ecology of the world and the societies of the creatures that live there.
The only game I can think of that kinda does this is Dwarf Fortress. This is something that goes WAAAY beyond what Baldur's Gate 2 offers, or Elder Scrolls, and even more WAAAAAAAAY beyond what Bioware does now. It's what RPGs could become if anybody actually pushed into the direction I mean, not simply making prettier graphics and more cinematic dialog scenes.
So you see, I'm by no means saying that BG2 was perfect. It's just that Bioware has dropped the ball around the time after they made that game.
You know what? You're right, I'm whining. I'm demanding. I want games that really move things forward. In the very least, I expected Bioware to keep their promise of making an RPG that is in spirit the successor of BG2, but with the second game of the series, they pulled out of that promise instead of actually addressing the issues of DA:O. What I meant in the paragraph you quoted was that simply making the combat action-oriented didn't fix anything. They just thought "oh shit they don't like the old-school style. okay, we'll just make it anime" instead of thinking WHY the old-school combat wasn't well-received. That's why I'm doubting that Bioware has any real vision for the Dragon Age series that they work towards.canadamus_prime said:
Blah blah blah. Considering Mass Effect 2 embodies some of the biggest departures from tradition Bioware games, you're contradicting your entire whiny post. Bioware is pretty well loved and a few people shaking their fist rambling about "the good ole days" isn't going to make them change their style. They still pump out great games. Play them or don't.
That's a valid point. Games that make combat action oriented, if it's done well are great! Mass Effect 2 had it down very well, and as I said, I like it. But there is goodness in turn-based combat too. Some more games that take this to heart would be great to play. It's not that there has to be EITHER OR, you know?Psychotic-ishSOB said:
Actually I feel the whine/***** factor for DA2 is about the same as Jade Empire. In fact, the complaints were kind of similar in the combat area if I remember correctly. There was even more anger about Jade Empire's environment but for different reasons.Andothul said:
Whatever, I don't really hate any Bioware games that I've played. Sure they've changed over the years but that doesn't bother me. I like change it keeps things interesting. It's one of the main reasons I can't play turn based rpgs or space flight games anymore. Too samey give me something new.
Please just stop. Two users were banned: one accidentally, and one for being a total fuck on their forums. I'm sick of hearing people ***** about Bioware now. Every argument has already been put out there by now, and all you're doing is saying, [HEADING=3]'Listen to me! I'm special!'[/HEADING]Either you liked the game or you didn't, but we really don't need to hear your personal opinion of it; especially after we've already been talking about it for a month.
Every RPG for every computer-based system is going to be dumbed down (Until computers can think for themselves, and by then they probably won't want to play games for us mere mortals). The problems with representing RPGs on systems with limited resources (Read: Not the human brain) are vast and basically insurmountable. The appeal of RPGs is the ability to "do anything," stats willing. Computers (And consoles, which are computer based) simply cannot provide that facet of the RPG world, thus they are all dumbed down. And that is a good thing. Nobody cares how much they are rolling, just whether or not they hit and how much damage they did. I think it completely reasonable to place an emphasis on visuals rather than stats, given the computer's only advantage over tabletop/pen-and-paper is the ability to show real-time consequences to one's actions in explicit detail.Zanaxal said:
That said, I liked KotOR because I could plan things out, set things up. I liked DA:O because I had the option to, but could also let stuff happen on it's own when I wanted to watch Morrigan win. At everything. And I liked ME because it was a fun game where I got to shoot things and actually get something out of it. None of these games were perfect, but they were all good games that I still play today.
Wahhhhhhhhhhhh bioware doesn't make games that only I can play. I don't want to share my games with other people.
-blank stare-warcraft4life said:
-breaks down and cries-
"I don't know, stop putting so much pressure on me! This is really hard! Why can't anyone act on there own!"
I always like to think that Shepard is about to snap during those pauses.
Mass Effect was my first Bioware game and I thought it was great, maybe some time I will get to playing the Boulders Gate with the interference of nostalgia and see for myself but I don't know. Because I've only been a fan one generation I certainly don't feel like they've lost me in any case.
people with the "nostalgia" argument always pop up in these threads.
first of all, I think most of these people saying that are probably too young to even HAVE nostalgia over ANYTHING, but thats for another day.
pretty sure this thread is a reference to DA2, I've been desperately trying to enjoy the game, but cant. Why? because its corporate shit, thats why. its obviously designed to be as easy to make as possible, thats why you end up going through the exact same area's over and over again through the entire game. Then every quest gets grouped up in one giant meta-quest thing because of how poorly thought out the questing systems were designed, so really you end up feeling like you're playing a shopping list, more then you are going on an epic quest. Dragon Age 1 had a thing called DIRECTION. it was made by people who wanted to sell AND play a great game. Dragon Age 2 does not have direction, as it was made by people who just want my money and really dont give two shits about how the game even plays as an overall experience.
and then Mass effect 2? again, only thing good was its cleaned up combat, and even then i still had big problems with it. mass effect 1 went from having its own style of game, to mass effect 2 which was "copy whats someone else is doing" (aka gears of war clone). regenerating health, ammo packs, chest high walls, while most people would say its a good thing for these things to be put in, i would say its bad, because now every game is the same. and dont say "dont fix what aint broken" because that's bullshit. there are lots of people that think that things like regenerating health and cover based shooting is broken, or at least could improve. yet, we just get a carbon copy of someone elses game.
the overarching problem is that bioware now make games to make money, while they used to make games they wanted to make and then made money from that.
its similar to pixar, really. they make movies they WANT to see, not movies they think will make them money by just following a bunch of trends and whoring yourself out creatively to the lowest common denominator.
and thats what DA2 is, its basically a bunch of marketers plagiarized everything that they thought was "cool" to the average gamer (even though the average gamer age is 36, they think its 12), packaged it up and marketed the shit out of it. EA did it before w/ dead space 2. made a m rated game and marketed it to a bunch of 12 year olds.
that is NOT nostalgia, lol. its a very dramatic change from how bioware used to make and market games.
first of all, I think most of these people saying that are probably too young to even HAVE nostalgia over ANYTHING, but thats for another day.
pretty sure this thread is a reference to DA2, I've been desperately trying to enjoy the game, but cant. Why? because its corporate shit, thats why. its obviously designed to be as easy to make as possible, thats why you end up going through the exact same area's over and over again through the entire game. Then every quest gets grouped up in one giant meta-quest thing because of how poorly thought out the questing systems were designed, so really you end up feeling like you're playing a shopping list, more then you are going on an epic quest. Dragon Age 1 had a thing called DIRECTION. it was made by people who wanted to sell AND play a great game. Dragon Age 2 does not have direction, as it was made by people who just want my money and really dont give two shits about how the game even plays as an overall experience.
and then Mass effect 2? again, only thing good was its cleaned up combat, and even then i still had big problems with it. mass effect 1 went from having its own style of game, to mass effect 2 which was "copy whats someone else is doing" (aka gears of war clone). regenerating health, ammo packs, chest high walls, while most people would say its a good thing for these things to be put in, i would say its bad, because now every game is the same. and dont say "dont fix what aint broken" because that's bullshit. there are lots of people that think that things like regenerating health and cover based shooting is broken, or at least could improve. yet, we just get a carbon copy of someone elses game.
the overarching problem is that bioware now make games to make money, while they used to make games they wanted to make and then made money from that.
its similar to pixar, really. they make movies they WANT to see, not movies they think will make them money by just following a bunch of trends and whoring yourself out creatively to the lowest common denominator.
and thats what DA2 is, its basically a bunch of marketers plagiarized everything that they thought was "cool" to the average gamer (even though the average gamer age is 36, they think its 12), packaged it up and marketed the shit out of it. EA did it before w/ dead space 2. made a m rated game and marketed it to a bunch of 12 year olds.
that is NOT nostalgia, lol. its a very dramatic change from how bioware used to make and market games.