Bioware...*sigh*

[voetballeeuw]

Here's a thought. Maybe we could move on from attacking DA2 or Bioware for awhile. At least until they release a different game. It's getting old, and unoriginal.

OT: I really enjoy Bioware's games. I love the stories and the characters, and don't mind the combat.

 

[Polaris19]

(Copy paste from some previous Bioware theread somewhere I posted)

I've played just about every Bioware game period and I have not seen a decline in their games quality. Are they shifitng a bit from the RPG standard, yes maybe, but the gameplay is still pretty good, the stories are excellent (minus DA:II), and the characters continue to be interesting and memorable.

Mass Effect is, and probably will be for some time, my favourite game. There are downsides to it, but that is true of any game.

Honestly, I'm a bit sick of hearing this same argument over and over again. It seems like a weekly thing. Maybe I should go make a "Bioware rules" thread...

Does Bioware have any brilliant designer who really calls the shots at all? Like at Origin with the Ultima games, you'd obviously have Richard Garriot as the guy with the vision. Or Warren Spector with the Ultima Underworld games. It seems like Bioware and many other big companies nowadays just don't have people like these anymore. That might be one of the problems.

Bethesda doesn't have a leading visionary, nor do Valve.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Remember Bioware? Those guys made some of the modern classics of the RPG genre. Baldur's Gate, KotoR, Neverwinter Nights etc. What happened to them?

In another thread I read that people bitched about DA:O's old school combat approach, so logically they had to make the combat more action oriented. And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased.

Oh wait, yes they are. Exhibit A: You.

You know what? You're right, I'm whining. I'm demanding. I want games that really move things forward. In the very least, I expected Bioware to keep their promise of making an RPG that is in spirit the successor of BG2, but with the second game of the series, they pulled out of that promise instead of actually addressing the issues of DA:O. What I meant in the paragraph you quoted was that simply making the combat action-oriented didn't fix anything. They just thought "oh shit they don't like the old-school style. okay, we'll just make it anime" instead of thinking WHY the old-school combat wasn't well-received. That's why I'm doubting that Bioware has any real vision for the Dragon Age series that they work towards.

Then perhaps you should get on the Bioware forums and offer them some actual constructive criticism and perhaps some suggestions as to how they could improve the combat instead of unhelpful and rather childish whining.

 

[sora91111]

Okay I get it! Some people think Bioware going down hill after DA2, but honostly would you want them to make copies of those other games. Nothing is gained by doing that. Nothing new, inventive. Now my guess is they'll take what was good from DA2 and DA:O and make the masterpiece that will be DA3. Also ME3 is right around the corner.

 

[4173]

snip

kotor was shit and neverwinter nights was average at best. baldurs gate, however, was and is the best rpg i have every played. i dont understand your argument, are you saying baldurs gate wasnt that great because its old? because fallout 1 and 2, baldurs gate 1 and 2, and arcanum, are all what i would consider some of the best rpgs i have ever played. and you cant say its just because i played them so long ago, because every single one of those games i have either played for the first time, or replayed, within the past 2 years. it sounds to me like your criticism of the games is that you dont enjoy traditional rpgs. seems like these days if an rpg isnt fast paced and action oriented, everyones ADD kicks in and they get bored. well if you want a fast paced action game, maybe you should play god of war or some random shooter. i miss the old days of rpgs, when story actually mattered. i cant remember the last modern rpg that actually had a good story, all the stories these days are just comparatively good because we have gotten used to shit stories

My point is that once someone forms an idea it is hard to change that idea:
Old people reference the "good old days" when they were dirt poor(30s), fighting a war(40s), scared of communists in their salads(50s), dealing with inequality, drugs, race riots, and starting a war(60s), and losing a war plus the fallout from the previous decade(70s)

Also the idea that the first impression is the most important. When someone forms an idea it is hard for them to change that idea.

Baldur's Gate was great(for you, the OP, many others and I), but compared to what we have today it is rated at the same level as DAO and ME by a few people. Admittedly I had a small number of people in my experiment but I have a really important question for you:

What in Baldur's Gate makes it the best story still, this is a sincere question, what makes the story great?

The villians. Sovereign is the recent only one that I found memorable, and I never really felt like I got to fight him.

Saervok, Irenicus and Malak on the other hand and the really powerful creatures in the games (Demogorgon, Kagnaxx etc.) were suitably epic too. It was also nice to feel part of a larger world, instead of "the being a chosen one."

I think the old games had better pacing as well. DA:O and ME2, both had the big reveal right near the start. On the other hand, ME1 doles out information well, and Shepard grows from very good solider to certifiable action hero, like the earlier games.

(this isn't to say I don't like the new stuff, I really do. And they are much friendlier to play. Really easy to re-play compared to the old games. However I think some of the improvements under the hood have come at some expense to the narrative.)

Lastly, we need more Golden Pantaloons.

 

[Chrishu]

This is gonna blow your minds, but i like da2 more than baldurs gate. I'm not some pc fanboy mired in nostalgia. Bioware's games are still some of the most compelling games I've ever played, so stop expecting old-school remakes amd get with the times.

 

[dolgion]

Remember Bioware? Those guys made some of the modern classics of the RPG genre. Baldur's Gate, KotoR, Neverwinter Nights etc. What happened to them?

In another thread I read that people bitched about DA:O's old school combat approach, so logically they had to make the combat more action oriented. And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased.

Oh wait, yes they are. Exhibit A: You.

You know what? You're right, I'm whining. I'm demanding. I want games that really move things forward. In the very least, I expected Bioware to keep their promise of making an RPG that is in spirit the successor of BG2, but with the second game of the series, they pulled out of that promise instead of actually addressing the issues of DA:O. What I meant in the paragraph you quoted was that simply making the combat action-oriented didn't fix anything. They just thought "oh shit they don't like the old-school style. okay, we'll just make it anime" instead of thinking WHY the old-school combat wasn't well-received. That's why I'm doubting that Bioware has any real vision for the Dragon Age series that they work towards.

Then perhaps you should get on the Bioware forums and offer them some actual constructive criticism and perhaps some suggestions as to how they could improve the combat instead of unhelpful and rather childish whining.

I did offer suggestions, though they are unfortunately buried in the discussion here. Also, I am working on my own RPG.

For combat it would've been enough to just lift the complexity of DA:O's combat to the level of around BG2. Complexity not meaning that everything should be super hard to grasp, but to offer for a wider range of combat tactics, thus allowing more classes. BG2 obviously had a solid foundation in the D&D ruleset. It's not perfect, and Bioware should've IMO looked into taking its complexity/depth while removing all the stuff that just doesn't work well in CRPGs (like the one-spell per day thing. I didn't like that myself). The last thing they should've done was to make it all even simpler like they did. (If their goal truly was to create a spiritual successor for BG2)

 

[JakBandit2208]

I must be the weird exception that plays BioWare games for their narratives.

In that respect, DA:O disappointed me in comparison to BG2, because Ferelden isn't nearly as interesting as Faerûn. ME2 disappointed me in comparison to ME, since Cerberus and the Collectors were unnecessary and stupid. I'll agree that they haven't made anything as good as BG2, but I don't think anyone has. The notion that their new games are inferior to their old games because they're 'easier' just sounds like elitist bullshit.

The thing is, D&D rules don't translate all that well to a video game. You'll notice this pretty quickly if you roll a mage in BG1 and find that you can only cast one spell before resting for the first four chapters or so. That's not "real" difficulty. That's just annoying. There's a lot of deep tactical combat in those games, but if I have give up an ounce of that to get away from some of the tiresome nonsense (I'm sure it enhances immersion for you PnP players, that's fine) carried over from D&D, then I'm okay with that.

As long as they can still use it to tell a story, I really don't care.

ME2 has some troubling implications on that front (Really? Project Lazarus?), but since I've already alienated half of you by claiming that DA2 is superior to DA:O, I think I'll leave it at that.

While I don't agree with your take on ME2, I do agree with you that Dragon Age 2 is superior to Origins.

 

[dolgion]

And people still *****, even more so. It's not Bioware's fault. No, gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased 100%.

True.

Wow you have a great sense of humor. Thanks for deliberately editing my quote!

 

[Shadowkire]

snip

What in Baldur's Gate makes it the best story still, this is a sincere question, what makes the story great?

The villians. Sovereign is the recent only one that I found memorable, and I never really felt like I got to fight him.

Saervok, Irenicus and Malak on the other hand and the really powerful creatures in the games (Demogorgon, Kagnaxx etc.) were suitably epic too. It was also nice to feel part of a larger world, instead of "the being a chosen one."

I think the old games had better pacing as well. DA:O and ME2, both had the big reveal right near the start. On the other hand, ME1 doles out information well, and Shepard grows from very good solider to certifiable action hero, like the earlier games.

(this isn't to say I don't like the new stuff, I really do. And they are much friendlier to play. Really easy to re-play compared to the old games. However I think some of the improvements under the hood have come at some expense to the narrative.)

Lastly, we need more Golden Pantaloons.

Hmm...

I would have to agree with you on every point.

 

[dmase]

They made them more action orientated and some of the audience liked the game. maybe more more of the audience mayble less but they've continued the trend so i'm gonna say more people liked it. Dude they sold out to you, to other people they finally made the game more accesible. It's personal opinion just like i'm pissed at square enix for passing dragon quest to the wii and before that the ds. I feel like they let me down but fuck if I control them. They just won't be getting a purchase from me on the wii or DS again, not that it matters.

-drunk monday nights into tuesday morning so don't listen to me -_- unless your as fucked up as I am.... which is unlikely.

 

[warrcry13]

I'll say something very similar to what I said in a thread very similar to this. I grew up on Bioware games, they were fun and great. I'm not going to let a couple flops ruin their reputation for me. I grew up on their games, and now I want to grow old with them. I just started playing DA2 so far I like it, not my favorite but I'm enjoying it

 

[Kortney]

In another thread I read that people bitched about DA:O's old school combat approach, so logically they had to make the combat more action oriented. And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased. No, this is Bioware's fault 100%. To me, this is another sign that Bioware is losing its edge. Since when is Bioware so headless and submissive to just simply throw in features that players call for without taking a step back to see if the changes work for the game, and contribute to reaching the vision for it?
Because that's, you know, the JOB of a game designer.

Wait, so..

You are claiming that you know what Bioware wants in their games? Maybe Bioware wanted to make DA:2 different from DA:O? Maybe they wanted to evolve the combat and make the game seem more appealing to more people.

They do have the right to make whatever game they want to. They don't owe you or anyone else anything.

Generally I found myself liking Bioware RPGs less and less over the years. Ever since Baldur's Gate 2 did they start decreasing the scope of their games, actionifying the combat systems in them until the games they produce became a mockery of the games they used to make.

Most people would disagree with you there. Bioware have gone from strength to strength.

Remember. You not liking something =/= Bioware doing it wrong.

Bioware, just admit you aren't able to make games anymore like you used to. Admit that all you're trying to do is get the greatest common denominator of gamers to buy your games so that you can make more money. You obviously don't know anymore how to make a deep and epic RPG, because you're so misguided about the things that make them great. If you just concede this and move on to making semi-linear action games with good stories, that's okay. I liked Mass Effect 2.

Why don't you just admit that the RPG genre has changed, and mainstream developers can't afford to make old-school RPGs anymore? "Deep and epic" is compeltely subjective. I find Mass Effect 2 to be more "deep and epic" than Baldur's Gate for example.

It's not that they don't know how to make archaic, boring, text heavy RPGs anymore - it's that they don't want to. Nor do the vast majority of gamers. Industries change.

What's next? Are you going to start ranting at Warner Brothers because they don't make movies like The Jazz Singer anymore?

 

[Merkavar]

And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased.

you cant please everyone. someone always bitches. the vocal minority always bitches

 

[Vetala]

blaming EA for DA2 was unfair, to say the game was rushed would just gave bioware an excuse.

now Bioware,

* regain your integrity
* stop listening to fans
* stop worrying about reviews

just create a game that you really want

 

[mechanixis]

I must be the weird exception that plays BioWare games for their narratives.

In that respect, DA:O disappointed me in comparison to BG2, because Ferelden isn't nearly as interesting as Faerûn. ME2 disappointed me in comparison to ME, since Cerberus and the Collectors were unnecessary and stupid. I'll agree that they haven't made anything as good as BG2, but I don't think anyone has. The notion that their new games are inferior to their old games because they're 'easier' just sounds like elitist bullshit.

The thing is, D&D rules don't translate all that well to a video game. You'll notice this pretty quickly if you roll a mage in BG1 and find that you can only cast one spell before resting for the first four chapters or so. That's not "real" difficulty. That's just annoying. There's a lot of deep tactical combat in those games, but if I have give up an ounce of that to get away from some of the tiresome nonsense (I'm sure it enhances immersion for you PnP players, that's fine) carried over from D&D, then I'm okay with that.

As long as they can still use it to tell a story, I really don't care.

ME2 has some troubling implications on that front (Really? Project Lazarus?), but since I've already alienated half of you by claiming that DA2 is superior to DA:O, I think I'll leave it at that.

This. All of it.

Can we just tag team all these threads please? The arguments are always the same: 'old Bioware games are better because they involve more number crunching.' Dragon Age 2 is honestly a really good story with an incredibly orchestrated narrative that brings to bear everything the studio's been learning from the preceding ME and DA games story-wise.

I can't stand Baldur's Gate. It's a goofy world with goofy characters and a bland, poorly presented story. Bioware isn't getting worse, it's just shifting its focus to storytelling over tactical depth, and I think the former is more meaningful in the long run. Mechanics can be engaging and fun, but they aren't art. You don't learn anything from mechanics. What does stay with you after the stop playing is story. Mechanics exist to keep players invested and propel the narrative forward.

 

[DirgeNovak]

For fuck's sake.

You prefer the game they made twelve years ago? Then go play the game they made twleve years ago and stop bitching about it.

I think that the priorities of Bioware are misplaced and they just fail to focus on what's really important to making good RPGs.

Hey, here's an outlandish idea: Why don't you create a studio and make your own games if you're not happy with theirs? Seriously, Bioware has been making games since you were seven years old. Who do you think you are trying to teach them "what's really important to making good RPGs"?!

Phew... it's good to let the anger out once in a while. Thanks for that, buddy.

 

[dolgion]

@Kortney

I judge the changes made in DA2 taking into account the "spiritual successor" claim. You see, for example with ME2, I don't have any problem with them making a shooter, if that's what they set out to do. But Dragon Age was supposed to be back-to-the-roots or not? It's how they marketed the game in the first place.

They DID decrease the scope of their games. Also, the combat systems have been more and more pushed to become more like action games. Compare KotoR's combat system with Jade Empire's, or even DA:O with DA2. The trend is visible. If that's a good thing is matter of opinion, I agree with you there. I happen to prefer the old more tactical style of combat system. What I point out is that their games have been losing in complexity. And I don't like that. Which doesn't mean that Bioware is doing it wrong. But they are, if they claim Dragon Age is like BG2 in spirit.

The RPG genre HAS changed, there's nothing to admit here. Also, it's true that they can't afford making games with old-school qualities. I said earlier that I'm not rooting for countless remakes of Baldur's Gate or something. I am for change. But I feel their focus on WHAT to change is not bringing the RPG genre forward. My vision for that is also in the discussion. There's a lot more potential to RPGs, and I'm unhappy that Bioware, one of the few real RPG companies isn't striving to push the envelope in that direction. If that's profitable or not, I don't know. Apparently it isn't. Which saddens me.

 

[CleverCover]

They should just have Obsidian make their sequels. Then their franchises would be getting progressively better.

Cancel that one. I like my games completed. And playable. With less bugs than my 3rd grade teacher's "Ant Farm of Learning".

 

[dolgion]

I agree KotoR 2 was better than 1. It had better pacing and writing.