Blaming the victim

DoubleTime

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So there's been a fair amount of talk in the news lately about the issue of blaming the victim, especially in regards to rape cases. Some of this is due to the case of the 11 year old from Texas: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20042118-504083.html

Another thing that stoked the fires was the recent comment of a cop in Toronto saying "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order to not be victimized."

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/04/slutwalk_toronto_takes_its_message_to_the_street_/
http://www.the33tv.com/news/kdaf-slut-walk-hits-dallas-streets-story,0,2823196.story

Personally I think that there is no reason EVER that someone should be sexually assaulted or raped. Because you find their clothing arousing or provocative, or they are very flirty due to over intoxication is not an excuse to ignore their rights as a human being, and this goes for both genders and every sexuality. Everyone should be able to dress how they feel comfortable without fear of personal harm.

So fellow Escapists, what are your thoughts on this whole issue? Do you think that there is too much victim blaming going on or that it really is the fault of women for wearing short-shorts or miniskirts?

EDIT:
I'm noticing a lot of blame being placed on men as rapists and women as false accusers and I would like to point out things go both ways. Yes those statistics are higher but it doesn't change the fact some men falsely accuse women and some women rape men. The point should be less about one gender in the grand scheme and more about are we coddling the attackers -who perpetrated physical and psychological torture- or is anyone in what constitutes provocative clothing at fault (e.g. a man in a nut-slinger speedo is asking for rape just as much as a woman in short-shorts)?
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Trying to pin rape or sexual assault situations on the victim is fucking disgusting anyway you look at it. I don't care what you are wearing, it has no relevance to getting raped.
 

chowderface

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Blaming the victim is basically the polite version of saying "I fully support the perpetrator."

I don't care what kind of excuses victim-blamers will make to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm looking at it too black-and-white, and it's not fair to make it a dichotomy like that, but you know what you fucking, you just don't. You just don't do that.

Rape especially. Something like assault you could almost get away with saying the victim deserved it if the victim was well known as a gigantic asshole but rape, no, never.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Generic Gamer said:
Well that's a nice theory but the police officer was giving more useful real-world advice. Remember that you can look from a point of idealism but the officer has to be pragmatic and frankly he's probably right in real life.

Rape's a tricky one, I can't say as I fully understand the whats and whys but in some other non rape related cases yes, the victim really does cause the situation themselves. It's perfectly fair to blame the victim if it really is their fault.
That line of thinking is dangerous.
"You just shot that guy!"
"He was acting like a douchebag. He was asking for it."
 

Random berk

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Wearing provocative clothing might make a woman a more appealing target, that doesn't make the perpetrator any less of a scumbag. The provocative clothing doesn't completely eliminate his ability to reason.
 

ScoopMeister

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While I agree completely and it's great to be idealistic, try telling that to the rapists themselves.
 

AlkalineGamer

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chowderface said:
Blaming the victim is basically the polite version of saying "I fully support the perpetrator."

I don't care what kind of excuses victim-blamers will make to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm looking at it too black-and-white, and it's not fair to make it a dichotomy like that, but you know what you fucking, you just don't. You just don't do that.

Rape especially. Something like assault you could almost get away with saying the victim deserved it if the victim was well known as a gigantic asshole but rape, no, never.
Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
chowderface said:
Blaming the victim is basically the polite version of saying "I fully support the perpetrator."

I don't care what kind of excuses victim-blamers will make to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm looking at it too black-and-white, and it's not fair to make it a dichotomy like that, but you know what you fucking, you just don't. You just don't do that.

Rape especially. Something like assault you could almost get away with saying the victim deserved it if the victim was well known as a gigantic asshole but rape, no, never.
oddly enough having someone say "if you didn't want to be raped you shouldn't have been dressed like that" seems like a good reason to hit them and say they deserved it

rape is one of the few crimes that has no justification
 

ScoopMeister

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[quote="RedEyesBlackGamer" post="18.279745.10922593That line of thinking is dangerous.
"You just shot that guy!"
"He was acting like a douchebag. He was asking for it."[/quote]
That's not the point. These rapists are messed up, and if they are provoked, then rapists are probably going to rape, regardless of how 'dangerous' you think that line of thinking is. Same with your shooting analogy.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Generic Gamer said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
That line of thinking is dangerous.
"You just shot that guy!"
"He was acting like a douchebag. He was asking for it."
Only if you're a deliberate idiot about it. Frankly it's been proven that rape is the fault of the perpetrator but in other cases yes, sometimes people get themselves into trouble. It's like walking into a road and expecting the cars to get out of the way.

Imagine if I walked up to you in a bar and told some guy I fucked his mother so hard I split her in half, he then understandably punches me. I am technically the victim of assault and battery...but by God I caused it!
I fail to see how wearing revealing clothing is walking by someone going "Molest me! You won't do it!".
 

Agayek

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Generic Gamer said:
Well that's a nice theory but the police officer was giving more useful real-world advice. Remember that you can look from a point of idealism but the officer has to be pragmatic and frankly he's probably right in real life. It's a case of realistically minimising risks, no one deserves to die but you wouldn't stroll across a 3 lane motorway would you? it's just a matter of being careful, the world's not perfect and people have to take precautions.

Rape's a tricky one, I can't say as I fully understand the whats and whys but in some other non rape related cases yes, the victim really does cause the situation themselves. It's perfectly fair to blame the victim if it really is their fault.
There's a difference between situations one has caused, and situations one is a victim of.

Rape and murder are most certainly the latter, in all cases. They require a conscious choice by another human being to occur. Someone had to decide "Yea, I'm gonna [rape/murder] [him/her]". There's no way for the victim to cause such a situation.

That said, I do agree with you on the practicality thing. The real world isn't perfect, unfortunately, and dressing provocatively can tempt people into doing something stupid. That doesn't excuse anything, but the best way to not be a victim in the first place is to exercise common sense and/or logic.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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ScoopMeister said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
That's not the point. These rapists are messed up, and if they are provoked, then rapists are probably going to rape, regardless of how 'dangerous' you think that line of thinking is. Same with your shooting analogy.
They'll commit the act anyway. Blaming the victim just lets them get off a little more easily.
 

Baby Tea

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Random berk said:
Wearing provocative clothing might make a woman a more appealing target, that doesn't make the perpetrator any less of a scumbag.
That's just it:

While I agree that the Toronto officers choice of words and candor were inappropriate, I think what he said wasn't exactly wrong. Of course, you are never, EVER to blame the victim for the crime that was committed against them, but let me throw this scenario to you:

A guy is walking through a rough neighbourhood waving a wad of cash around, and he gets mugged.
Now, obviously the one who mugged the guy is in the wrong 100%. That was illegal, and he should be punished.
And the guy should have the right to wave around money as much as he wants without fear of being attacked and robbed. But it's a naive and dangerous game to play. Ideally, I should be able to leave my doors unlocked, my keys in my car, and my money on my counter. But it's asking for trouble if I do any of those things.

Again, not my fault if someone robs me. I have the right to leave my door unlocked, my money out, and my keys in my car. But, at the risk of sounding redundant, it's dangerously naive to do any of those things.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Generic Gamer said:
Well that's a nice theory but the police officer was giving more useful real-world advice. Remember that you can look from a point of idealism but the officer has to be pragmatic and frankly he's probably right in real life. It's a case of realistically minimising risks, no one deserves to die but you wouldn't stroll across a 3 lane motorway would you? it's just a matter of being careful, the world's not perfect and people have to take precautions.

Rape's a tricky one, I can't say as I fully understand the whats and whys but in some other non rape related cases yes, the victim really does cause the situation themselves. It's perfectly fair to blame the victim if it really is their fault.
Entirely not true. Rapists don't pick the sexiest victim available. They pick one that reminds them of someone in their lives. A fat, ugly girl is just as likely to be raped as a supermodel - possibly moreso since there are more fat, ugly people in normal life.
 

Agayek

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XxRyanxX said:
Regardless how the lady was dressed, it doesn't make it ok or more alright what so ever for anyone to sexually take advantage of her. The cop speaks about reality, but the moral does not stand with it. The term clearly states this for example as far as I see it:

Officer: "Well, she was looking mighty attractive, I don't blame the dude for doing what he did."

That's how I feel about the statement. It shoudln't matter, because whoever did that to her was making a choice to do such a horrible low act. I am even disappointed in him and people in general if they use that as an excuse for what happened to her. I just hope she's alright and can recieve help.. it always hurts me to see people being used in a foul way.
Baby Tea said:
That's just it:

While I agree that the Toronto officers choice of words and candor were inappropriate, I think what he said wasn't exactly wrong. Of course, you are never, EVER to blame the victim for the crime that was committed against them, but let me throw this scenario to you:

A guy is walking through a rough neighbourhood waving a wad of cash around, and he gets mugged.
Now, obviously the one who mugged the guy is in the wrong 100%. That was illegal, and he should be punished.
And the guy should have the right to wave around money as much as he wants without fear of being attacked and robbed. But it's a naive and dangerous game to play. Ideally, I should be able to leave my doors unlocked, my keys in my car, and my money on my counter. But it's asking for trouble if I do any of those things.

Again, not my fault if someone robs me. I have the right to leave my door unlocked, my money out, and my keys in my car. But, at the risk of sounding redundant, it's dangerously naive to do any of those things.
This guy actually had the perfect analogy to use here. It's not the victim's fault, and it doesn't alleviate the severity of the perpetrator's crimes, but it's just kinda dumb to walk around in a hooker uniform in a bad neighborhood (or when too drunk to walk straight, etc).

They should be able to, but that's not going to make it any less of a stupid idea.
 

Tulks

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Personally, I find it disgusting and insulting that anyone would even consider trying to convince women not to wear tight tops and miniskirts.

The nerve of some people...
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Generic Gamer said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
I fail to see how wearing revealing clothing is walking by someone going "Molest me! You won't do it!".
This is why I quite clearly and obviously stated 'except rape'. Come on man, meet me half way here!
You are talking to someone who abhors violence. I just don't see why people have to follow invisible guidelines to avoid trouble. I see your point, but I will not blame someone for something they didn't do. Lets just agree to disagree.