Blaming the victim

[PhiMed]

Also: OP, could you please tell me an instance of a man falsely accusing a woman of rape? I know you've already stated that "the statistics are higher the other way", but I don't ever recall reading a single story like that.

I haven't heard of it either, but I think that's mostly due to societal issues.

The vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults on men go unreported, and even less go to court. Many men wrongly feel ashamed of admitting to abuse, even if its violent, and as such, I think even less men would be willing to take a woman to court- that background would make it hard for someone to make a false claim.
I have heard of men making false claims of spousal abuse though, as real cases become more common, so perhaps one day, we will hear about it.

False rape claims are abhorrent, and undermine genuine victims.

I can't find numbers, mostly because Google keeps "correcting" my searches, but its pretty much what Wutaiflea said (awesome name, BTW). Very few male victim rapes are reported, due to social norms and stigmas, which I feel is really the major issue at play in sexual assault of all kinds, especially rape and false rape cases. My point was more men can also be victims and perpetrators on both sides of the equation, and that it makes no sense to think that it can't (and most likely hasn't) gone both ways.

On that subject...

The drawing of lines about who is/isn't "always" at fault for one kind of injustice just perpetuates it, when in reality we should be teaching social skills and self-esteem rather than alcohol and drugs at parties is how sex "should" or "just does" occur. Plus how everyone, not just women, should know being really drunk or high increases the likelihood of any crime (rape, mugging, racial violence, gender violence) happening due to lowered inhibitions (the reason most people drink or whatever in those situations) and lowered ability to control your body (reflexes, cognition, what most people have been referring to as "common sense," etc.).

The attitudes about both sexes just need to change. Women dressed "like they want it" doesn't mean they do. The idea someone finds you sexy or appealing as a sex partner is often enough, and "being led on" or "cock-teased" doesn't give a man the right to even tell her off for feeling led on by her wardrobe, let alone molest or rape her. And men aren't just animals that can't control themselves. This idea their penises are some separate entity is ridiculous and not all men are going to cheat or be unable to control their dicks. Telling them they didn't know better is just giving them a pass because no one wants to hold them responsible. Gender equality means equal responsibility, not "it's his/her fault!"

Yes, there will be men who drop roofies or wait til the girl is too drunk to tell him from the door and women who cry rape because they don't want the social repercussions of their actions, but both of them are breaking the law! Plus, there will always be assholes, regardless or gender/sex/race/religion/political affiliation, and they're just that - assholes. Just pick up and walk away from them, no sense dealing with them, you just get stressed and they enjoy it.

Well, if societal norms make men less likely to report actual incidents of rape, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be less likely to report fictitious incidents of rape?

I think it's makes much less sense to assume that something exists as a societal reality in the complete absence of evidence in order to balance "the equation" than it does to question whether the event in question has ever actually occurred.

I'm not saying men don't get raped, so I'm going to stop you before you go down that road. I'm also not saying men don't hide it when they do get raped. I'm saying that I don't think that false accusations of rape levied by men against women is really of any statistical significance whatsoever.

This is partially (as you've stated) because of societal norms. There is nothing to be gained, socially, for a man to make such an accusation. There is no emotional support for male accusers against female perpetrators. There is no sympathy. There is only ridicule.

However, for a woman (contrary to most feminist assertions), accusations of rape usually lead to almost automatic belief by those in authority and an outflow of sympathy from the public and activist groups. I'm not saying that it should be otherwise. I'm just saying that this structure is easily exploited by mentally unstable individuals. Please see the Duke Lacrosse case for proof.

There is no such existing structure to provide incentive for similarly mentally unstable people with Y chromosomes, so I'm not convinced that it occurs in significant numbers, if at all.

Also, I reserve my right to tell of anyone for any reason, just as I respect their right to label me a moron for doing so.

Getting upset because a girl won't sleep with you =/= raping her, and girls do lead guys on, frequently. It's usually not in a party atmosphere. It's called manipulation. Many guys have done lots of chores for lots of women, including homework, heavy lifting, carpentry, auto work, etc. for free in the hopes that some day, perhaps, that girl might sleep with them. Getting upset over that type of manipulation isn't out of line.

 

[Saint of M]

Unfortunately this is one of the oldest defensive mechanisms in the human psyche, and one that is still too surprisingly prevalent with women when it comes to another woman being sexually assaulted.


Long story short: "It could never happen to me" attitude. The idea that you are just as lily as Jane Doe to be violted is the last thing anyone wants to think about, so people lie to themselves that it could never happen to them... until it does.

Is this bad? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes. Is this stupid beyond all reason? Yes.

 

[Jon Shannow]

While i think the way some girls act does make the chance of a rape happening for example flirting and leading on a drunk guy for a whole night and then turning them down. While i don't think that makes her guilty or the guy innocent she obviously didn't help the situation.

Though when this argument comes up about women dressing revealingly i'm reminded of a story a heard about Vlad the Impaler: Apparently he once had some of his maids strip and walk through the streets naked and night. And the people were so afraid of his tendacy to impale people for breaking any law that not a single one of the maids was molested

 

[omega 616]

Not on this site but I had a similier thread that was on the opposite side of the fence and I still am.

Don't get me wrong, rape = never ok! EVER in a billion years!

What I think is that (gross over generalization incoming) [straight] men are walking erections, we all look at large chested womens chest, we stare at girls wearing revealing clothing 2 or 3 seconds to long and thats not to mention "locker room" talk about things we would do to girl X.

So if you got a girl who is basically dick teasing you, wearing revealing clothes, push up bra, face full of make up, drunk as a skunk (thus lowering inhibitions) and to take the lyrics right out of Fergie (from black eyed pea's) mouth "dancing like a hoe" is she really totally null and void of any blame?

I don't think so.

I am not saying go out dressed in a massive turtle necked sweater and baggy pants to find all of your figure. I am saying toned it the fuck down!

Dress in things like prom dresses, not actual prom dresses but like this ...

Still sexy and whatever but it's not ...

To me one says "I want a relationship and I respect myself, you should respect me aswell" the other says "I'm a quick fuck and have no respect for myself, so why should you?". That might just be me though.

Also from a purely rapists point of view (if you can manage to be so twisted and cruel), which would be the harder target? The mini skirt or the tight skirt?

I just think girls should take responsibility for there actions, there not asking for it but there not making themselvs a hard target or not putting that idea in there head.

 

[Saluki_princess]

The rape situation is too easy. Yes, blaming the victim of rape is always wrong. The act disgusts us more than any other (if you include child molestation), so yes, we're all (mostly... I hope) going to agree.

However, I would never encourage anyone to, say, dress in revealing clothing and walk down an alley in the middle of the night with no protection, just because they have the freedom to. I think that people should take precautions so that they don't become victims, because, unfortunately, capable guardians cannot be everywhere at once.

However, what about someone we consider a "bad" person? Say, a child molester. After being arrested and tried, he gets off with nothing but parole. Embittered, he writes a letter to the child's mother, threatening to go after the child he abused. Via the Sex Offender Registry, the mother finds out where he lives and shoots him in the head. He dies instantly. Legally speaking, he's a victim.
Is this man responsible for his own murder? Or did he simply deserve it? Or neither?

We just need to keep in mind that "victim" isn't always synonymous with "weak and innocent." It's not always as simple as "girl in miniskirt gets raped by brutal stranger."

EDIT

Huh. Reading the comment I saw above mine, perhaps I was woefully wrong. Whether or not a rape victim shares any blame is not an easy question at all. It's only easy in a college classroom when everyone's too afraid to say what they actually think.
This makes me sad... But I prefer the truth to lies.

 

[Saluki_princess]

A person doesn't lock his car == somebody elses right to steal it?

No.

A woman dresses provocatively == somebody elses right to rape her?

Hell no!

And yet not locking the door of your Mercedes in South Central L.A would make you an idiot.

I think there is a middle ground. No, it's not the victims "fault" but they sure as hell can do a lot to provoke it.

If a man can't keep his d**k in his pants, that's his problem not the woman's, unless he then rapes her, and in that case, he's a cruel, misogynistic bastard.

Most rapes aren't done by random psychopaths who jump out of a dark alley and have sex with the stranger. They are committed by people who the victim knows. Usually there has been mutual flirting all night, lots of alcohol and then when it comes to go time someone changes their mind and the other person looses control and does it anyway.

I'm a big believer in the concept of "if you don't want to have sex with a guy, don't lead him on". As a female, I can vouch that girls do lead men on and girls do flirt with dangerous people. Is it their fault that they end up being raped? No, but they were acting like idiots and they did a lot to make it happen. Just because they were raped and rape is such a taboo subject doesn't change this.

Back in England, I had a friend who had been flirting with some idiot jock boy at a pub for about six hours. He was known to be a loose cannon and she had no real intention of having sex with him, yet she was doing everything in her power to flirt with him. They talked and flirted at the pub, then she went to his house willingly, got into the bedroom, made out with him, flirted some more, then when it got down to business she tried to make him stop. He raped her.

Now, yes, that guy is a bastard and it is his "fault". But she acted like a five year old and brought it upon herself. She showed no street smart, no common sense and no safety. It may sound cold to say this, but it's true. I'd be willing to wager that most rapes happen like this. I think the really tragic and violent rapes are somewhat of a rarity that are overblown by the media due to how horrible they are.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't bring crime upon yourself. Don't hang around sleezy areas whilst flirting with dangerous men because you are bringing it upon yourself. It's the same reason why you don't walk around the ghetto at 2am dressed in a suit with your Ipad and designer wallet on show.

You make interesting points but it doesn't matter. There's no excuse for raping somebody. Nobody is EVER 'asking for it' because of the way they dress or flirt. Sex appeal is a natural part of human expression. Flirtation is a natural part of it too. Showing skin or being flirtatious is not a 'rape pass' for the disgruntalled man who misses out. To say otherwise, as you kind of did, is to imply 'sex entitlement' for men. That's a load of crap. There's no such entitlement, and it takes a rapist, a criminal, to rape, nothing more or less.

It is incredibly stupid, as this thread has been, to say that women provoke their own rapes in this way? Not only that, it is insulting to men, as it implies that men are such slaves to their hormones and drives that their intellect cannot get in the way when the boner is raging. Regardless, rape is probably never for the love of a woman. It's entirely self-gratification with a goal to put somebody into submission and use them in perhaps the cruelest of ways.

Nobody asks for that, and no man should suggest that sometimes its deserved or unavoidable.

I think you're dancing around the issue to appease some form of politeness.

I never suggested it's a "rape pass" nor did I excuse the actions of the men, but you have to be realistic. I think your line of thinking is incredibly idealist and you are countering my points with appeals to emotion.

You can't argue that if I went down town tomorrow night to the seediest district, dressed in a mini skirt and started flirting with incredibly dangerous men - brought them home with me and then at the last minute turned them down, i'd have a much higher chance of being raped than if I was out with friends and did nothing careless. In the first situation, if I was to be raped, was it my fault? Of course not. Did my carelessness attribute to the rape happening? Absolutely. Yes.

Some crimes, including rape, are brought upon because of carelessness from the victim. It's reality. It's a fact. No, I'm not saying the rapist is therefore less of a bastard, or that the rapist isn't to blame - I'm just saying the victim can very well bring situations upon themselves and we have to acknowledge this. We have to teach our children this - so they don't do it themselves. I think pretending that all crime is 100% because of the criminal and NOTHING provoked it is being unrealistic and it's dangerous to tell people this. People need to know that actions have consequences. The way you behave can determine whether or not you will be raped. Or bashed. Or mugged. Not always, but it can and sadly, it does. All the time. In every night, in every city. I think we have to acknowledge this and be able to discuss it without emotional intervention.

But I think ultimately we do agree on the same thing. You should never blame the victim.

I think it's very brave of you to make this argument. You have a lot of good points, and ultimately, I must agree. While it's never the victim's fault, their actions can and often do (along with many other factors) contribute to the end result. We cannot deny this. If we didn't believe it, we would never give safety tips to anyone, because their actions would have no effect on the outcome. It's all routine activity theory.

 

[Kortney]

I think it's very brave of you to make this argument. You have a lot of good points, and ultimately, I must agree. While it's never the victim's fault, their actions can and often do (along with many other factors) contribute to the end result. We cannot deny this. If we didn't believe it, we would never give safety tips to anyone, because their actions would have no effect on the outcome. It's all routine activity theory.

Thanks, and I do think we need to teach our little girls a bit more about it. I think we really need to tell them the reality of it - I don't think we do it enough. Whilst it would be lovely to send them the message "dress how you want and express yourself how you want! Don't hold back!" that isn't reality. Because in seedy areas, you can't do that. With dangerous people, you can't do this. We all know this - but I don't believe we send that message well enough.

Maybe it's cynical of me, but life sucks and life is cruel. It doesn't matter if you are a good person or a carefree spirit, if you fuck around with dangerous men and flirt with them - you are increasing your chances of rape by about 150%. I think we need to send this message to people. As the saying goes, if you make your bed you must lie in it. Yes, this sounds horrible and no, this doesn't make the rape her "fault" - but it's reality!

But, I had a ridiculously dangerous childhood and this is probably all that talking. However I am glad to see someone agrees with me!

 

[Mastercylinder]

No matter what you're wearing, people should be dignified enough not to sexually attack someone.

The victim isn't asking for it, regardless of attire. There is no way someone could "ask for it". It's like if I have my wallet out, i'm asking to get mugged.

Criminals or perpetraitors run on their own system of morals or logic, victims can't help that.

It's really stupid. It's more stupid that people think they're needs to be a petition about it.

 

[cobra_ky]

While i think the way some girls act does make the chance of a rape happening for example flirting and leading on a drunk guy for a whole night and then turning them down. While i don't think that makes her guilty or the guy innocent she obviously didn't help the situation.

Unless she said something like "i am definitely going to have sex with you later tonight", the guy has no one to blame but himself.

What I think is that (gross over generalization incoming) [straight] men are walking erections, we all look at large chested womens chest, we stare at girls wearing revealing clothing 2 or 3 seconds to long and thats not to mention "locker room" talk about things we would do to girl X.

Yes, straight men tend to have large sexual appetites. this fact is not in dispute.

So if you got a girl who is basically dick teasing you, wearing revealing clothes, push up bra, face full of make up, drunk as a skunk (thus lowering inhibitions) and to take the lyrics right out of Fergie (from black eyed pea's) mouth "dancing like a hoe" is she really totally null and void of any blame?

yes, she is, not that this has anything to do with the vast majority of rape cases.

there are women who do these things for a living; they're called strippers. it's understood that they generally don't want to have sex with you.

To me one says "I want a relationship and I respect myself, you should respect me aswell" the other says "I'm a quick fuck and have no respect for myself, so why should you?". That might just be me though.

Clothing is not a universal language, nor is it a legal method of expressing consent.

I just think girls should take responsibility for there actions, there not asking for it but there not making themselvs a hard target or not putting that idea in there head.

you're not asking them to take responsibility for their actions. You're asking them to take responsibility for what men think about and do to them.

 

[omega 616]

snip

Your first point to me just makes me laugh, "straight men tend to have large sexual appetites. this fact is not in dispute".

Prove that, I want you to prove that making yourself a really easy target, firting with guys only to turn them down (and the rest of what I have said) has nothing to do with the vast majority of cases, of course it does!

I don't drink but I know for a fact alcohol makes you do stupid things, while lowering your inhibitions so where there are drunk guys there will be drunk girls and since the vast majority of people get drunk on a weekend, there are going to be alot of rapes happening.

I am sure if you looked for a graph of rapes, the number of cases were the victim was drunk, at a weekend and at night would be higher than every other case.

1) Night = dark AKA cover, it also the time people are the most drunk and vunrable (stumbling home).

2)Alcohol lowers your inhibitions and slows your reaction times

3)Not alot of people get totally wasted during the week, due to work the next day.

4)showing everything you have to a guy just makes him want it more.

Come on, when was the last time you stared at a girl wearing a big thick coat and not the girl wearing a bikini? When you look at a women in a big thick coat you don't think anything of it, you see a girl in a bikini and you think "wow, yes please", you wouldn't rape her but sex definitely crossed your mind.

Thats all it takes, some drunk guy thinking "I want sex with her" followed by a stupid mistake or the guy thinking she was playing hard to get.

Like I said before though, not saying dress in over sized mens clothes. Just don't go out naked.

While I have never been to a strip club, I am pretty sure they obey a "they can touch you, you can't touch them" policy, in a club you can touch every girl there, so it's more sexually charged. They also have big hairy arsed bouncers dotted around the place and I assume the strippers leave after everybody else, sobre, then drive home and go to sleep. There not stumbling home pissed as a fart on there own.

I am also pretty sure they won't go home tits out, clear heels on and $1 bills sticking out of her thong, they will get dressed in normal day clothes and go home.

I never said it was a way of giving conscent, thats what I have been saying all along! Take preventitive measures against not getting raped! Both out fits are sexy, one covers up more and so is harder to rape, the other girls has her tits out and a mini skirt on, so I would bet out of the two the rapist is going for the easier and less covered up girl.

It's like if you look in a car and see a laptop on the seat, you think "one quick elbow and a short run and that is mine". If you put that in the boot (say the robber saw you put it there), it's much harder to get to, so it will take longer and do is not worth the risk.

There are classes for learning how to lower your chances of being raped, so there is a responsibility on there girl. Whether you like it or not some of the blame has to be placed at the girls feet, most is still on the guy though.

 

[Saluki_princess]

How I wish every girl could just turn into a superwoman and thoroughly trounce any man who tried to hurt them...
But unfortunately, for now at least, we'll have to settle for self defense training and taking precautions when at all possible.

 

[Saint of M]

Another problem with dress like a slut=rape is the mass majority of rape victims are still done by someone they trusted and had known for a while (family friend, brother, father, uncle, teacher, doctor, and so on). I doubt you are dressing like a ho half the time around them.


Another issue is rape is largely a thing of dominance. The rapist is showing their superiority and demeaning the victim. Sex just happens to be the tool of the trade, and they see their sexual organ in the same way an ancient warrior saw their battle ax.


Yes, there is rape committed for the sake of having sex, but there is still the my way or the highway constituted.

 

[cobra_ky]

Your first point to me just makes me laugh, "straight men tend to have large sexual appetites. this fact is not in dispute".

yes, i made a factual statement to the effect that a particular trait is common, but not universal among heterosexual men. problem?

Come on, when was the last time you stared at a girl wearing a big thick coat and not the girl wearing a bikini? When you look at a women in a big thick coat you don't think anything of it, you see a girl in a bikini and you think "wow, yes please", you wouldn't rape her but sex definitely crossed your mind.

exactly. i wouldn't rape her. that's the whole point. it doesn't matter how sexually attractive a woman might be, it's no excuse for rape.

Thats all it takes, some drunk guy thinking "I want sex with her" followed by a stupid mistake or the guy thinking she was playing hard to get.

Actually, it takes a willful or reckless disregard for the safety, well-being, and wishes of another human being. it doesn't matter if the guy's drunk, he's still responsible for his actions, just as if he got behind the wheel of a car. it doesn't matter if he thinks she's playing hard to get, it's his responsibility to know if she wants to have sex or not.

I never said it was a way of giving conscent, thats what I have been saying all along! Take preventitive measures against not getting raped! Both out fits are sexy, one covers up more and so is harder to rape, the other girls has her tits out and a mini skirt on, so I would bet out of the two the rapist is going for the easier and less covered up girl.

and the rapist would probably choose the one in the black dress over one in a burqa. (though make no mistake, women in burqas still get raped.) why is one standard so much more reasonable than the other?

There are classes for learning how to lower your chances of being raped, so there is a responsibility on there girl. Whether you like it or not some of the blame has to be placed at the girls feet, most is still on the guy though.

There are classes where you can learn to disarm a gunman. Is it my responsibility to take them? Am i to blame if i get shot in a bank robbery?

The situations you've been describing simply do not reflect the vast majority of rape cases.
Many rape victims weren't wearing revealing clothes. Many weren't drunk at the time. Many actually were wearing prom dresses when they were raped. Many weren't explicitly trying to lead their attacker on. Many already knew their attackers. Many were raped in their own homes.

Yes, there are precautions you can take that will make you safer. There are always more precautions you can take. I could board up my windows to protect my apartment from break-in. I could stop using credit cards to protect myself from ID theft. There's a big difference between saying "here's some precautions you can take", and "it's you fault this happened, because you didn't do this." You can always find fault with the victim's actions in any rape case, if you look hard enough. that's what makes victim-blaming so insidious.

What we need to do is set a standard for behavior and hold society accountable to it. there's no reason a woman shouldn't be able to go out and have a good time the same way a man can. there's no reason people shouldn't be able to dress sexily if they want to. there's nothing wrong with recognizing the sad and unfortunate reality of the world, but there's something very wrong with shaming people for failing to conform with it.