Bleszinski: On-Disk DLC an "Unfortunate Reality"

[MPerce]

Can we just go full digital now and get this mess over with?

I get where the devs are coming from here. Statistically, DLC sells less the longer you wait after the original game's release, so it makes sense to get some DLC out there as soon as possible. And if the DLC was made during the three month down time, it makes sense to charge extra for it, even if its included on the disc. Extra money's being spent on their part, too.

It's the mistrust this situation breeds between consumer and publisher. An asshole publisher can easily lock up parts of the game meant for the original release just to nickel and dime the customer. This will piss your customer off, resulting in loss of future sales. Everyone loses.

So it all comes down to the publisher keeping the customer happy. If you can do that, he will happily pay an extra 10 bucks for more gameplay. Right now the only major company doing decently in that regard is Valve, and they have an angry mob of Half Life fans at their door. Not a good sign.

 

[Daniel Sugrue]

I have no problem paying for incomplete on disc dlc, because your paying for the content developed after the game was released, this would be like for ashes, which while it did have on disc content, a significant download was required.

On the other hand, content that is completely on the disc and only requires a 18kb unlock file, paying on top of the purchase price (which for new games here in NZ can be $100 - $120) is complete and total bs and shouldve been available from day 1 as part of the original purchase price.

 

[Archemetis]

It's all a matter of circumstance.

From this gears example, it sounds like the on-disc content is purely cosmetic, and affects the game in no significant way, not a big deal, multiplayer maps, likely included for collector's edition, you might want something like that on disc at day one so that the paying costumers can access that content as quickly as possible, this is purely a way of trimming down download times.

For mass effect 3's from the ashes dlc, the stuff that was data mined from the discs was placeholder data for the character that wasn't just added on as a little bit extra in his own mission or thrown in at the end, he was woven seemlessly into the narrative, that takes a lot more work then basic dlc does to implement.

What i'm getting at here is there had to be files in place with the shipped game to make sure that on day one, that dlc wouldn't just take as little time as possible to download, but that it would actually work as intended.

I don't begrudge Bioware for the decision either, the money was well spent and if having those files on disc is what needs to be done to ensure that kind of quality, well, I'm fine with it.

 

[Frostbyte666]

Consider this:

What if the developers have all the assets, textures and code for a particular level but when they actually try to run the level they find it is broken. Either unbalanced or technically unstable full of bugs and game crashes... it. is. not. ready. It needs another 3 months work.

Now the extra work has nothing to do with creating the textures, the body of the Data, that is done. The extra work is in testing both for balance and stability. The extra work is only a few megabytes, basically a patch.

See that "patch" IS NOT on the disc (or the initial download). This couple megabytes file may be small, but is may have taken more work to develop than all the creation of th

See, games are coded increasingly on the lowest level, BYTE BY BYTE! Think about that with a 2 megabyte patch, that is TWO MILLION BYTES! Two million variables you have to code, test and balance for. That 1.5 meg download is valuable beyond what its size would suggest.

A simple unlock code would not be 2 million bytes long, it wouldn't even be 1 kilobyte.

As to digital download only I think it should definitely be an option and it benefits everyone who matters to this industry.

Digital download cuts out the middle-man, it is more direct capitalism, directly connecting the creators of wealth (game makers, who turn worthless computer bytes into great games) to those who pay and actually use the wealth. Middle men in retail do nothing but hike the price and disrupt the market with exploitative used market.

You fret if something happens to your hard-drive, what if something happens to your Xbox 360 disc? There is NO BACK UP! Nothing, once it is scratched or cracked there is NO RECOVERY! No re-download. And you can back up your digital-downloads to - you guessed it - back them up to now cheap RW-DVDs. Once you have bought a game on Steam, it is almost impossible to lose it.

Digital distribution is FAR cheaper in sales. I have never found as good deal on Steam, and on digital-only eco-systems like iOS has such low pricing and so often free. By god, the collections especially. And on PC digital only Free-to-play. I don't know ANYWHERE in retail that free-to-start has worked. Even demo disc you have to pay for buying a magazine that it comes with.

Jeez did I hit a nerve or something? Fine I'll give you that the 1.45 meg may be extremely important to play a level and it may be unplayable because the publisher didn't give the developer enough time but then with that argument it is a patch to make it playable NOT dlc.

Also wow so your happy having digital and just burn a disc, good for you. However I like collections and to have a proper collection I want the ORIGINAL disc for 1 thing it is a lot more valuable in the fact I can sell it if I so choose. Also with consoles if I have the original disc I don't need to worry about the hard drive failing and losing paid for games. I lose my saves etc etc, but I don't really feel that is a big deal to me. Hell I've had my ps3 hard drive die, know what I did? Replaced it with another 1 and all was sorted out with no problems, instantly back to playing instead of having to wait a couple of days just to finish redownloading all my games again.

Finally yes digital distribution is cheaper in SALES. But if the game you want is not in a sale your looking at the same price (if its a new title) as if I go to the shop and buy it, hell instead of buying new games on steam I buy the physical official disc from amazon, know why? IT'S CHEAPER.

 

[Danzavare]

"If we can get to fully downloadable games, then you can just buy a $30 horror game and just have it, and that stuff will thankfully go away," he continued.

Wouldn't that also be true if the DLC were free? If so, the problem (if you see it as one) could be solved now.

(bold added by me)

 

[getoffmycloud]

I'm slightly confused about some of the information in this article. So apparently there's three or four months where the game is basically done and they work on dlc content. Hasn't the game been sent to Microsoft/Sony during this period for testing etc? Surely that means that all work on the vanilla product has finished? I was under the impression that when Microsoft or Sony give the game the okay it can no longer be modified. So how does the disc-locked dlc being developed during this period of testing appear on the disc? Surely they'd have to send it back to Microsoft/Sony because the content of the product had changed after initial testing.

The explanation given in this article seems only applicable to dlc distributed via digital download and not anything locked-away on disc. Although I suppose it is also applicable to dlc which is partially on-disc like the 'From Ashes' dlc in ME3. But still, either I've not had enough sleep or something doesn't add up here.

Basically the DLC is being developed alongside the main game but the developers know they can't finish it by the time the game has to go off to microsoft and sony so they just shove whatever is already done onto the disk and the put the rest up for download on release it keeps the download time down.

Yeah I think if it is finished on the disc and you charge for it that is just bullshit. I would love to see somebody give people access to unfinished on disc DLC to stop them complaining to I think it would be pretty funny

I can see how this process works for incomplete dlc like the 'From Ashes' dlc of Mass Effect 3. But things start to get a bit iffy when complete game content for dlc is locked away on disc. Street Fighter X Tekken comes to mind in particular. I'm not saying that any of this is particularly right or wrong, but it's starting to get a little uncomfortably murky.

 

[loa]

Pardon me, why can't the on-disk DLC be, you know, free?
"It was developed during a time in which the game is basically done and team would have had nothing to do" is not an argument for it to be with costs.
In fact there is absolutely no excuse for it to cost money, especially given the outrageous pricing games have nowadays.

 

[Treblaine]

Jeez did I hit a nerve or something? Fine I'll give you that the 1.45 meg may be extremely important to play a level and it may be unplayable because the publisher didn't give the developer enough time but then with that argument it is a patch to make it playable NOT dlc.

Also wow so your happy having digital and just burn a disc, good for you. However I like collections and to have a proper collection I want the ORIGINAL disc for 1 thing it is a lot more valuable in the fact I can sell it if I so choose. Also with consoles if I have the original disc I don't need to worry about the hard drive failing and losing paid for games. I lose my saves etc etc, but I don't really feel that is a big deal to me. Hell I've had my ps3 hard drive die, know what I did? Replaced it with another 1 and all was sorted out with no problems, instantly back to playing instead of having to wait a couple of days just to finish redownloading all my games again.

Finally yes digital distribution is cheaper in SALES. But if the game you want is not in a sale your looking at the same price (if its a new title) as if I go to the shop and buy it, hell instead of buying new games on steam I buy the physical official disc from amazon, know why? IT'S CHEAPER.

Hit a nerve? What makes you think that? I'm not angry at all. I'm using caps only for emphasis as I have explained this complex concept before and many people have not understood or taken in the key points.

Like for example you missed my point on Optical-Disc storage vs HDD storage. If your HDD dies, you can re-download or use a back-up or use a friend's install to back up from. You CANNOT lose your game. But optical discs are too easy to destroy, such as if the console is moved while the disc is spinning and of course they have no backup, once they are gone the only replacement is to go out and buy another physical copy. There may be a delay with replacing games lost in dead HDD, but the delay with a dead Optical Disc is perpetual.

I understand you have some emotional attachment to the physicality of a game disc, but I think that will pass just like we let go of Cartridge-games to spite how applicable they were.

I'm using patch in the broadest sense. A patch to make minor improvements or fix a problem that slipped them by is obviously unreasonable to charge for, especially if they only noticed this post-shipping and only started to look for it after release. A general patch for stability is to hold up their end of the deal to have a balanced and stable game, but extra levels is beyond the deal of what you paid for.

But a patch to completely construct and assemble a game level is CONTENT, it is downloadable CONTENT! It has come from effort of very skilled individuals with significant value. It is NOT just an unlock code for everything that is already on the disc. If they had never released that DLC/patch then no amount of hacking could unlock that content, they would be forced to actually design the levels themselves.

Don't miss the other benefit of digital-downloads: a higher proportion of whatever you pay goes to the people who actually make the game. The Reason amazon sells a few % lower is the buy the game in bulk at lower price.

On digital downloads the split in money is 70-30. The people who made the game take 70% of the selling price, the networks takes 30%. With retail it is the other way around, the people who actually made the game get only about 30% of the price you pay, while all the retail, wholesale and middle men take 70%.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

I find it rather funny.

So while they are waiting that the game is shipped, they make a DLC that magically appears on the already burned game disc?

Sorry to say this, but that excuse holds no water in the case of the on disc DLC. It is valid excuse for first day DLC's and everyone with a brain will agree with that. But now with the on disc. Ya know, ON THE FUCKING DISC!

If it's on the disc, that means it had to be finished before the burning process, therefore, it's before all the time you say you would be wasting doing nothing. I'm not sure, but shouldn't it also be done before shipping to M$, Sony and Nintendo because they need to approve? Whether or not that's the case, the first point still stands. It must be finished before the burning process.

 

[GonzoGamer]

Since Cliff Bleszinski put his views the way he did, I agree with the developers and Day 1 DLC.
Game making like ant other production is a business not a hobby.

Side projects are not allowed unless there profit to be made. And most Day 1 DLC are not integral in the main story plot or game play.

Even online passes have there reasons, Ensure that people buy there product even if someone buys a used copy of the game, "Oh you want online multi-player, $10 please".

Some On Disk content has to be disabled on disk, maybe that one extra character still is buggy, whole stages that are cut out of the game and instead of deleting the stage it is fair easier to disable it. Programers will know what I mean it is called "Commenting out" sections of code.

Mainly its to do what Major corporations number 1 legal obligation is, pay their investors. Paying Investors means you have to make profit.

If I take a car for a test drive and decide to buy it right there, is the dealer going to charge me for the gas in my tank?!!
Well?

You technically you already pay extra for that. Take a look at the price of the car, then sales tax. This will include Tax and Title(tax on the car it self not the sale of), any last minute maintenance cost like installing extras. If you look real carefully I am sure there many car dealerships that charge you for that Tank of Gas, at premium rates. So many people fail to read all the fine print.

Before the time of digital distribution and Digital DLC there where the expansion packs, where you have to pay for the additional content later on. And it is not uncommon that some of that content is already locked up on the original disk.

Other businesses are doing similar practices that game publishers do with day 1 DLCs now for decades, the practice is actually centuries old.

Here is you "insert product here" oh the "insert accessory here" is sold separately.
This will include vacuum bags, USB cords, power adapters, memory cards, printer ink.
All items you think that should be included in the product.

Yea, sure. I get all that.
I just think that I (as well as many others) would be a lot more tolerant of those kinds of schemes if they were practiced by the small struggling indie studios rather than the more established companies that were making huge profits before they had online pass & day1 dlc.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

A pretty good rule is check wikipedia to see what the publisher is. If the publisher is a public corporation don't buy the game new. Borrow it from a friend, get it used, or just do without.

There are plenty of independent games developers that care about their product, don't rip people off, and aren't beholden to parasitic executives or stockholders. There are also totally free games are free as in beer, or microtransaction where they give you a big demo and you pay if you like it.

Don't support market segmentation, its only purpose is to make people who don't have unlimited amounts of money feel bad.

 

[Murmillos]

Car Analogy; with "on disk" DLC
You buy the car, it has power windows, air-conditions, and even a radio, but all of them are missing the switch that makes them work; as all hardware and cabling is already done. It costs you $100 to activate any one.

Car Analogy; with standard downloadable "Internet" DLC
You buy the car, it doesn't have power windows, AC or a radio, but you see the ground work that some cables and mounting brackets are there. It costs you $100 to install any one.

Yes, and restaurant meals/being served shit as a dessert for other complaints.

Personally, we should stop using shit as a dessert analogy, because shit is well, unsanitary. I like to think of it more as a horseradish or Wasabi drizzle all over over your desert, be it cheese cake, cherry pie or vanilla ice-cream . It's still "edible" (unlike shit), but the taste is completely off -- and more off putting then anything.


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There is a big difference between laying the "ground work" of a added DLC elements, to which most gamers would understand (ME3 Tavik DLC fury would have been less if they didn't update his character model at the last minute for the main game), to including the whole DLC on the CD and then charging customers access to that.

Also, if all of these "development" teams know that there is this 2-3 month "gap", then why in the fuck don't they plan to leave out a few core features of the game that they can easily develop and add back in during that 2-3 month gap, and then give it away free as a patch; either on disk or off disk. Your workers are still getting paid out of the core budget, and you get to continue the good will towards your customers -- as it doesn't look like you are trying to screw them over.

Oh wait.. this silly $$$ thing comes in, where you are trying to justify to yourself why you should be nickel-and-diming your loyal customers. Oh, so its our fault that you make crappy 8 hour games that most people want to trade back in in minute we finish it? I get it, Gamestop has in issue of pushing used games, but used games wouldn't be a problem if gamers didn't have a need to get rid of your games after beating it in 8 hours -- ON FUCKING LAUNCH WEEK! The only thing you do to make it "last" longer is by trying to pad the achievement chasers.

Don't want to see your game floating around in the used bin on the weekend of launch week? Then make a game that isn't easily described as "disposable diapers".