Blizzard Challenges Valve Over DOTA Trademark.
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...you do realise that if Valve win this it will ostensibly set the precedent that modders actually have some ownership over the mods they create, right? Because one of the original creators of DOTA, Iceyfrog, is now working for Valve on this very game.linwolf said:
Whereas if they lose it would mean that even if you come up with a completely new game, if you happened to implement it in say TF2 then any sequel to that game would be trading off Valve's name and would thus breach trademark because the original mod was "associated with TF2, a Valve game".
Lets get rid of any inherent bias as to who loves Bliz/Valev more. Imagine if you made a really awesome mod, that everybody loved and then six years later a big game studio/publisher comes up to you and says "Hey that mod you made was really good, would you like to come with us and make it into a fully fledged game?". Then the owners of the game you modded start suing your employer saying they're breaching trademark for making your mod. Would you, as the modder, feel that the owners of the game you modded were looking out for your best interests? I wouldn't.
First, if you're argument is on "...the creative sterility of Valve...", then why are you in this thread? That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Though, I fail to see how they aren't 'creative' if the people that WORK there are the ones who thought up the mods and ideas that led to the games we now have. That's like saying a talented musician, who's made many popular albums, is no longer talented because he's now putting out albums through a different label. It's just nonsense.Freechoice said:
Second, Blizzard had plenty to gain from trademarking DOTA themselves. They just didn't want to put the time, effort, or money into the process because they thought they already 'owned' it. Seeing as it was only a Warcraft 3 mod. Now that it's not, they stand to lose their cash cow.
And the answer is most definitely yes. The only reason Blizzard is making Blizzard DOTA is to cash in on the MOBA trend.
Once again, people can't seem to grasp the difference between direct profit from product sale and indirect profit from brand association. Which is what this whole thing is about.
Non-innovative? I'm not even going to get into this one. Firstly, because it's way off topic and secondly because, more often then not, the rest of industry is playing catch-up to Valve. (see: Yahtzee in the Resistance 3 review)
And no, they aren't one of the "big boys". Profit margins do NOT a big company make. They are still comprised of only one division and less than three hundred employees total. Compare this to EA, Activision, or Ubisofts publishing divisions alone.
When Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs started selling computers as a 'company', they made billions in a matter of hours. Yet, their 'company' was comprised of...two people. By your logic, that made them "one of the big boys". Seems a stretch to me.
It falls in the same pit of legal despair that the fooforah over Scrolls does. Bethesda/Zenimax had zero issues with the matter until Mojang put in the paperwork to trademark the name. In the end it would have been better if the paperwork was never filed, as then there wouldn't have been an issue.TheStatutoryApe said:
Read your TOA/EULA. Mods are possible because anything created using a specific game engine falls under the domination of the copyright holder of that engine. You are basically given permission to make a mod for a game, but you can not profit from it, nor try to financially claim it as your own as the code for it derives from the game engine you created it for. This is why Blizzard would prefer it be kept from being trademarked, as then they would have to restrict use of the mod being used for their own game. And that would be bad for business. Blizzard knows DOTA helps sell their games. There are already some popular mods for Starcraft II that have been boosting sales for that game. Shame the same can't happen for Diablo III. That's the part that has me so confused.Adam Jensen said:
Valve is being woefully stupid here, as Blizzard has a strong case, and it could end up where Valve loses any rights to recreating DOTA for their own use, even if they change the name. It would have been far better to start with a new name from the get-go, or just license the engine.
I think the thing we need to keep in mind here, and it's something we're ALL forgetting, is that the people who have a say in who can own the trademark on the name are the creators of the mod.
At present, both Icefrog and Eul are working at Valve. Therefore, Valve has more of a right to trademark the name than Blizzard-Activision has to request Valve be denied.
And, seeing as ALL of the assets being used in Dota 2 were created from the ground up and NOT copied or ported from Warcraft 3, Blizzard's claims are baseless.
See here: http://www.1up.com/previews/dota-2-valve-fanboys-developers
(not a website plug)
At present, both Icefrog and Eul are working at Valve. Therefore, Valve has more of a right to trademark the name than Blizzard-Activision has to request Valve be denied.
And, seeing as ALL of the assets being used in Dota 2 were created from the ground up and NOT copied or ported from Warcraft 3, Blizzard's claims are baseless.
See here: http://www.1up.com/previews/dota-2-valve-fanboys-developers
(not a website plug)
But the other side is that by making it so that the company have no right at all you could end up with situations where the game developer made modding hard or impossibly was they could be use as a case for lawsuit if something like the mod would be implemented in the game later by them. There are already a lot of companies that tries to stop modding as they compete with their DLC, this why give them even bigger reason to prevent modding.Alexnader said:
A lot of the other creators of the mod have gone against Valves trademark, even going as far as creating DotA-Allstars, LLC in their effect to keep it a community-owned product. And for more information about it, in 2008, Feak and Mescon each assigned all of their rights in and to the DotAVigormortis said:
Mods and the DotA-Allstars Website to "DotA-Allstars, LLC." In 2010, DotA-Allstars,
9 LLC was purchased by Riot Games, Inc. In 2011, Riot transferred DotA-Allstars, LLC to
Blizzard.
Blizard didn't make DOTA, so theirfore, it isn't their's to reap.
As long as valve has permission from it's creaters, it should technecally their's.
As long as valve has permission from it's creaters, it should technecally their's.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but the actual intellectual content of that would be yours..what you're talking about is profiting via the use of the engine it's built in..and since DOTA2 is built totally on the ground up i'm not sure I see why it's applicable. They don't own the intellectual property, just the means via it was originally delivered.samsonguy920 said:
So what you're saying is, the people who didn't create the mod and whom had the least amount of time and effort devoted to the game, created a website, sold that site to Riot, who then turned around and sold it to Blizzard. All in the name of keeping Valve from taking the name Dota?linwolf said:
Oh ironic hypocrisy. They were so dead set against one company trade-marking the name, so they tried to give it to another company. Too rich.
Again, Eul and Icefrog, the man who created DOTA and the man who spent the most time maintaining the mod (and still does), respectively, should have the most say in what does and doesn't happen to the DOTA 'brand'. Since they're working at Valve, and have obviously given Gaben the okay, that means Valve has every right to try to trademark it.
Blizzard has nothing but greedy intentions in all of this. There's no altruism in their intentions. The same can be said for those at Riot who are so "dead set against" Valve trademarking the name. And by extension, against Eul and Icefrog laying claim to the mod.
I am a firm believer in not withholding information just because it can all be used against my side, and I have no doubt that both Riot and Blizzard have personal interest in case. But for me a large part of the DotA-Allstars, LLC was that they spend over two years figthing Valve before they gave it over to people with more money to continue the case. Keep in mind that Blizzard have no interest in the name, it would and have fit them better having the community have it and getting some extra brand recognition out of it.Vigormortis said:
And you keep bringing Blizzards greed up in this, I got to say I don't think Valve only is during this out off the goodness of their heart.
Anyway I don't see must reason to continue as our difference on the subject stem from different staring position.
You see if I get it right that since Valve have two of the mod creator and on top of the the does with the biggest part in the mod and is making a new game that they should be able to trademark the name.
And me not so must against your logic, as afraid this will come back and bite modding community in the ass, by making developer less inclined to support modding and therefore would prefer to see Blizzard win
We don't know that. It has never been tested in court, it's just something that Blizzard asserted. EULAS and TOSes are not necessarily binding agreements, so it doesn't really matter what they say until a judge puts the hammer down on one side or the other.samsonguy920 said:
I think that this entire situation is going to be a difficult one to sort out.
On one hand, Blizzard has a valid point, because without WCIII, DoTA may not have been created (essentially. It was a mod, but based of an IP of blizzards using everything from that game as a basis).
However, if the creators of the DoTA mod now work for Valve, then I can see how they could make essentially the same claim (i.e. if they never made the mod then Blizzard wouldn't be able to make their own variation of it) and therefore Valve should be allowed to use the name.
Overall, I'm actually going to have to side with Blizzard on this, because the FIRST thing Valve should have done is had Blizzards consent to do this. Regardless of who made the mod, it was made with Blizzards hard work. I hope this gets sorted out without much issue.
On one hand, Blizzard has a valid point, because without WCIII, DoTA may not have been created (essentially. It was a mod, but based of an IP of blizzards using everything from that game as a basis).
However, if the creators of the DoTA mod now work for Valve, then I can see how they could make essentially the same claim (i.e. if they never made the mod then Blizzard wouldn't be able to make their own variation of it) and therefore Valve should be allowed to use the name.
Overall, I'm actually going to have to side with Blizzard on this, because the FIRST thing Valve should have done is had Blizzards consent to do this. Regardless of who made the mod, it was made with Blizzards hard work. I hope this gets sorted out without much issue.
I believe you and I are in agreement more then we realize. Believe it or not, my friend, I understand your position. And believe me, I'm not saying Valve isn't in this because they see some way of profiting from it. They are a business, after all. As is Blizzard.linwolf said:
However, the difference is, Blizzard isn't doing this out of some altruistic move for the benefit of the community. They want to bank on the DOTA name as much as Valve does. So the idea that Valve, Icefrog, and Eul want to trademark the name doesn't sit well with them because, if Valve and company do, Blizzard can't exploit it for their own gain.
I foresee Blizzard winning this case as the thing that will "come back to bite the modding community in the ass". If Blizzard wins, it sets a dangerous precedent in that modders do NOT own the rights to their own creations and that the company who owns the game the mod(s) were made for are the ones who do. This would spell disaster for the modding community at large.
Also, if there's one thing we need not worry about, it's Valve not supporting the modding community. They are one of the few companies still operating that openly supports modding as a whole. I mean, hell, they just released the Steam Workshop for goodness sake.
Look at it this way. With Dota 2, you'll not only see community mods and variations made for it, but you'll see Valve support them. With Blizzard DOTA, you won't see jack unless Blizzard approves of it and takes ownership of it.
Actually, two of them do. The two most important ones, in fact. Eul and Icefrog are both working on Dota 2 at Valve. And seeing as Eul created DOTA and Icefrog is the one who devoted the most time and effort into maintaining it after others abandoned it, I'd say they have the most say.Dendio said:
Except they do want to control it. Blizzard has every reason to.Dendio said:
I know that Blizzard sees the money in this: I wonder how many copies of Warcraft 3 and The Frozen Throne they sold because of DotA alone. Probably quite a few.
Blizzard is no White Knight here to protect trademarks for the sake of the community; they're here to take control of it purely for their sake, exactly as Valve wants to.
By challenging it, and claiming it as beneficiary on behalf of the MOBA community, Blizzard finds themselves a windfall of good PR; even if it's a total lie.
There is no great ethical debate here; merely a legal one.
The motivation for either side is strictly business.