Blizzard Challenges Valve Over DOTA Trademark.

[OldNewNewOld]

DotA is an abrasive for Defense of the Ancient.
DOTA is a word.

Blizzard may have the rights over Defense of the Ancient, but not over DOTA.
Defense of the Ancient is the real name of the map. DotA was just used on the file name to make it shorter.

That's why Blizzard has no rights over DOTA. Valve wants to trademark DOTA as a word, not as a abrasive for anything. DOTA2 has no connection to Defense of the Ancient.

Dota 2 IS NOT built on the WC3 engine, and if they think the interface and mechanics are similar, they may want to file complaints for every other MOBA that has come out in recent years too. Same with the Characters, spells, art...you name it. They've been very careful to change all of that in dota 2. You can't claim copyright or trademark on "Red guy with an axe" or "Sorceress that likes fire". Likewise, you fucking can't claim copyright/trademark on something as stupid as "Ancients" just because it's a small feature in your lore.

But original DotA is. Everything in that mod is provided through Blizzard game War3 RoC and TFT.
Every hero/champion and unit/minion is part of the Warcraft III, even "turrets" lol. Doesn't matter if fans made DotA or w/e, the fact is that w/o Blizzard there would be no DotA in the first place nor any of the todays MOBA games.

No War3 = no DotA = no MOBA

Get the picture ?

This vagues more on moral side but I support it.

No Nikola Tesla, no video-games at all. Nikola Tesla owns all IP's on the world.
Just because you use some tools to make something doesn't mean that the tool's owner owns your work.

 

[GoaThief]

Doesn't matter since DotA was made using Blizzard material.


/Thread.

Team Fortress 2 is owned by id software because Team Fortress was made using id's material.

/silliness

Don't you see how claiming any home-made modification belongs to whatever corporate entity published or designed the game it was based upon, is wrong and will set a precedent?

 

[Vigormortis]

I bring up the creative sterility of Valve because of that guy bitching about how it's hypocritical for Blizzard to bring this to court just because they ripped off Warhammer. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo. They're uncreative fucks as well. That's a moot point brought up without any kind of logic behind it, just emotional irrational. Most of the counterargument stems from that. And cool, you quoted Yahtzee as if he still has relevance. Sure, he made a bunch of comparisons with Half Life 2, but the gameplay mechanics were also present in every shooter pre-Halo. The only things that are similar enough are the story elements which I honestly couldn't give a flying shit about.

Can you explain to me how Blizzard plans to cash in on a MOBA when their own is a mod for Starcraft 2? Do you expect them to sell more units of a large RTS just for the DotA it comes with? Seriously, what do they have to gain from it?

And yes, they are one of the big boys. They can take a major loss without being completely fucked over. And when you bring up brand association, you made me laugh. Why do you think Valve wanted the name DotA 2 as opposed to having the goddamn respect for the community and naming it something else like every other MOBA?

The only reason Blizzard would bring this case to court is because they actually see a way to bank on both the MOBA genre and the DOTA name. Blizzard is now a part of Activision, yet you're going to sit there and imply that they'd do something that doesn't have the potential for monetary gain? Please, take a moment, sit back, and rethink your stance here. It's quite funny to see people defending Blizzards move here as if Blizzard is some kind of "white knight" standing up for the modding community. (yet they forget, quite quickly, how anti-modder friendly their latest games have been)

Also, yes. The only reason they're calling Blizzard DOTA...well...Blizzard DOTA, is because they're banking on the name. They're using it to pull in more customers. So, yeah. They're planning to "cash in" on the MOBA/DOTA trend.

Valve is doing the same, to a degree, but they have legitimate reasons to use the name Dota. That reason?
They have Eul, the creator of the mod, and Icefrog, the man who spent the most time and effort into making DOTA what it is, working there on Dota 2. So...seems to me...Valve is the only one interested in 'respecting' the original DOTA community in all of this.

And again, profit margins do not a big company make. It's a combination of monetary value, breadth of influence and reach in the industry, and the level of public and investor involvement. So, with that in mind, you can call Blizzard "one of the big boys". Same with Rockstar, Ubisoft, EA, Activision, and even Bioware. (seeing as they're all multi-billion dollar companies, have multiple divisions world wide, thousands of employees, and many investors) However, and though they make oodles of cash, they're comprised of less than 300 employees, have only one division, and are still privately owned by those working there. So...no. They are not "one of the big boys".

Doesn't matter since DotA was made using Blizzard material.


/Thread.

Team Fortress 2 is owned by id software because Team Fortress was made using id's material.

/silliness

Don't you see how claiming any home-made modification belongs to whatever corporate entity published or designed the game it was based upon, is wrong and will set a precedent?

Of course they don't. Most of these people siding with Blizzard are just die-hard Blizzard fans who hate Valve. So it matters not what the actual situation is, they'll just side with Blizzard. Most of them don't even grasp what an actual mod is or how DOTA was actually created.

So...ummm. Yeah. You're wrong. It'd be one thing if the actual creator was the one who was trademarkin the name. He isn't. The company that he is a part of is tryin to trademark the name. If anythin, if Valve wins it'll set the precedent that modders don't own their work in any way shape or form because their work was trademarked without a legal transfer of the name away from them.

Really though, anyone not on the side of Blizzard here just has to be lettin their hate of Activision blind them to whats goin on. Let's take the most extreme point of view here and say that both companies aren't doin this for any other reason than to get their money grubbin mitts on the DOTA name. Which of the two companies is the worst here? The one who wants to be the only one who can use the name and will be able to threaten legal action on anyone who uses the name (Valve) or the company that wants the name to stay free of trademarks (Blizzard). No matter what happens, if Blizzard wins we stay at the same point we were before. Dota remains a free name that anyone and everyone can use.

This is Blizzards case to win, plain and simple. I personally believe the reason they want the name to remain untrademarked is because they are a) makin a blizzard dota for starcraft, and b) Blizzard has historically been incredibly close with its modding community and is one of the friendliest to them.

The second point is why I find this whole thing saddening really. Valve has the same reputation as bein incredibly close and friendly with its moddin community and then it went and pulled this dick move. For shame Valve.

Actually, you're wrong. If Blizzard wins this, it means that a mods creators have no legal claim to trademarking or owning anything they've made. Let me ask you this, if we learned tomorrow that Eul and Icefrog were the ones who wanted to trademark the name, and not just Valve at large, would you still be siding with Blizzard? If so, you're assertions would sound very disingenuous. If not hypocritical.

It still fascinates me that people think Blizzard is doing this "out of the goodness of their hearts" for the benefit of the modding community. Face it, they're not. The only reason they're doing this is because they want to bank on the name. If Valve has it trademarked, they can't do that. It's a money-making thing, not a "paragon" thing.

Also, I have to refute your claim about Blizzard being close to their modding community. Starcraft 2 is by FAR the most restrictive, "mod-friendly" game I've ever played. And, Diablo 3 looks to be even worse.

Blizzard used to be on good terms with the modding community, but now they seem more interested in either taking the communities ideas for themselves or giving a colossal middle-finger to anyone who wants to mod the game.

 

[Freechoice]

snip

If it's cool for you to say I'm being emotional, it's cool for me to call you ignorant. It's twice now that you've ignored my question. How does Blizzard intend to make a profit on Blizzard DotA when it's a fucking Starcraft mod? And aren't you aware that Steve Feak had issue with this too and filed

I don't see Blizzard as a white knight. For that matter, fuck Blizzard. All of their recent games have been shit simply because they're a bunch of untalented idiots that got very lucky at the start.

But again, answer the question. Do you seriously believe people are going to buy SC2 just to play some shitty mod Blizzard made when LoL is free to play and already ingrained in the public conscious? Can Blizzard stand to make money on this like Valve inevitably will with fucking hats?

Blizzard is also justified in using DotA as a title. Why? Because they provided the tools for both DotA and Aeon of Strife as well as the lore behind them. Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard is entitled to certain usage of that term and Valve just wants to use it to appropriate fans. It's just standard practice for Valve to take a modder, buy him out and trademark the living fuck out of his creation. Are they within their rights to do so? Of course. Is it tasteful? Fuck no. Take the community assets, make them their own and call it a day. That's been their business practice for years.

So maybe it is about giving Blizzard shit for recent changes to their business models. Valve's been pulling this shit since Counter-Strike.

Valve is a big boy by virtue of being a publisher and having a pile of cash to pay a legal team and not have to worry about having a paycheck at the end of the day.

This wouldn't be a problem if Valve didn't try to trademark the title, but they did. That's what they do all the time when they assimilate designers and ideas. Blizzard leaves their modders alone and lets them flourish. Hence why Steve Feak was able to go out and make LoL. Never heard of a former modder from the Valve community going out and doing important shit. Creativity, ingenuity, Half-Life 3? Pfffffft.

 

[-KC-]

Doesn't matter since DotA was made using Blizzard material.


/Thread.

Team Fortress 2 is owned by id software because Team Fortress was made using id's material.

/silliness

Don't you see how claiming any home-made modification belongs to whatever corporate entity published or designed the game it was based upon, is wrong and will set a precedent?

[quote/]
Of course they don't. Most of these people siding with Blizzard are just die-hard Blizzard fans who hate Valve. So it matters not what the actual situation is, they'll just side with Blizzard. Most of them don't even grasp what an actual mod is or how DOTA was actually created.[/quote]

So...by that logic, most ppl siding with Valve are Blizzard haters and Valve fans ? See what I did there ? I shouldn't support anyone here but Valve is same bunch of fakers just like Blizzard is. They're both trying to squeeze as much of cash while they can. Valve just did it before everyone else. The fact that they're actually using something made using Blizzard's tools (originaly)just makes it worse.

Everyone has his/her own point of view and tbh I don't care about others if I see it like this.

 

[Vigormortis]

snip

If it's cool for you to say I'm being emotional, it's cool for me to call you ignorant. It's twice now that you've ignored my question. How does Blizzard intend to make a profit on Blizzard DotA when it's a fucking Starcraft mod? And aren't you aware that Steve Feak had issue with this too and filed

I don't see Blizzard as a white knight. For that matter, fuck Blizzard. All of their recent games have been shit simply because they're a bunch of untalented idiots that got very lucky at the start.

But again, answer the question. Do you seriously believe people are going to buy SC2 just to play some shitty mod Blizzard made when LoL is free to play and already ingrained in the public conscious? Can Blizzard stand to make money on this like Valve inevitably will with fucking hats?

Blizzard is also justified in using DotA as a title. Why? Because they provided the tools for both DotA and Aeon of Strife as well as the lore behind them. Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard is entitled to certain usage of that term and Valve just wants to use it to appropriate fans. It's just standard practice for Valve to take a modder, buy him out and trademark the living fuck out of his creation. Are they within their rights to do so? Of course. Is it tasteful? Fuck no. Take the community assets, make them their own and call it a day. That's been their business practice for years.

So maybe it is about giving Blizzard shit for recent changes to their business models. Valve's been pulling this shit since Counter-Strike.

Valve is a big boy by virtue of being a publisher and having a pile of cash to pay a legal team and not have to worry about having a paycheck at the end of the day.

This wouldn't be a problem if Valve didn't try to trademark the title, but they did. That's what they do all the time when they assimilate designers and ideas. Blizzard leaves their modders alone and lets them flourish. Hence why Steve Feak was able to go out and make LoL. Never heard of a former modder from the Valve community going out and doing important shit. Creativity, ingenuity, Half-Life 3? Pfffffft.

I'm not even sure why I'm even dignifying you with a response. (oh, and classy move insulting people. top notch) You're just someone who hates Valve, right? In fact, I'd wager you're among those people that starts a "Half-Life, how can anyone like it?" thread. You know, the ones we see almost daily.

I did answer every question you've asked. You either didn't comprehend the wording or you ignored it. I can't help that. You'll have to find help for that on your own. It's not my problem.

Now, before I actively start ignoring you and your rather aggressive and insulting posts, I think it's hilarious that you think Valve hiring someone (i.e. giving them a job) is the equivalent of "buying them out". Just too rich. Too rich.

Oh, and speaking of "not answering", you've yet to prove your point that they are a big company. You even screwed up your "facts". Valve is not a publisher. Not sure where you ever got that idea.

Oh wait, you made it up didn't you? To support your argument. I see now.

Still, doesn't matter. It's clear your only intention is to rile up controversy and spew forth vitriolic anger. This will be the last time I waste any time responding to you. Good day.

 

[Freechoice]

Good day.

Indeed. Good day.

OT: I feel like Valve would agree to a Quake 3 deathmatch with some Blizzard guys as Herr Notch attempted with Beth. A better suggestion would be a LoL match for the lulz.

 

[Alexnader]

...you do realise that if Valve win this it will ostensibly set the precedent that modders actually have some ownership over the mods they create, right? Because one of the original creators of DOTA, Iceyfrog, is now working for Valve on this very game.

Whereas if they lose it would mean that even if you come up with a completely new game, if you happened to implement it in say TF2 then any sequel to that game would be trading off Valve's name and would thus breach trademark because the original mod was "associated with TF2, a Valve game".

Lets get rid of any inherent bias as to who loves Bliz/Valev more. Imagine if you made a really awesome mod, that everybody loved and then six years later a big game studio/publisher comes up to you and says "Hey that mod you made was really good, would you like to come with us and make it into a fully fledged game?". Then the owners of the game you modded start suing your employer saying they're breaching trademark for making your mod. Would you, as the modder, feel that the owners of the game you modded were looking out for your best interests? I wouldn't.

So...ummm. Yeah. You're wrong. It'd be one thing if the actual creator was the one who was trademarkin the name. He isn't. The company that he is a part of is tryin to trademark the name. If anythin, if Valve wins it'll set the precedent that modders don't own their work in any way shape or form because their work was trademarked without a legal transfer of the name away from them.

Really though, anyone not on the side of Blizzard here just has to be lettin their hate of Activision blind them to whats goin on. Let's take the most extreme point of view here and say that both companies aren't doin this for any other reason than to get their money grubbin mitts on the DOTA name. Which of the two companies is the worst here? The one who wants to be the only one who can use the name and will be able to threaten legal action on anyone who uses the name (Valve) or the company that wants the name to stay free of trademarks (Blizzard). No matter what happens, if Blizzard wins we stay at the same point we were before. Dota remains a free name that anyone and everyone can use.

This is Blizzards case to win, plain and simple. I personally believe the reason they want the name to remain untrademarked is because they are a) makin a blizzard dota for starcraft, and b) Blizzard has historically been incredibly close with its modding community and is one of the friendliest to them.

The second point is why I find this whole thing saddening really. Valve has the same reputation as bein incredibly close and friendly with its moddin community and then it went and pulled this dick move. For shame Valve.

I'm ambivalent to both Activision and Blizzard, though I do <3 Valev.

I don't get the relevance of the distinction that "the company he works for" is trademarking it as opposed to iceyfrog trademarking it himself. Doubtless the trademark was part of the deal Iceyfrog made to get his mod made into a game and such deals are hardly uncommon especially in the realms of developers and their publishers.

Valve are hardly being dicks to Iceyfrog and modders in general, not when they decided to go about developing and publishing a AAA version of the mod in question. Furthermore I don't blame them for trying to trademark the name, given they're investing a no doubt substantial sum of money making the first commercial version of dota, something that Blizzard has up till recently Blizz has apparently been reticent to do.

While Blizzard asking for the name to remain free, open and untrademarked may sound worthy and noble and in the spirit of this technological age we live in, what they're really saying is that Iceyfrog can't do what he wants with the name of his own mod and that he doesn't own that name. Because if he can't sell/trade it to Valve then he sure as hell doesn't own it in the proper sense of the term.

I'm not qualified to say whose case it is to win, however I will vehemently contest the idea that Valve has pulled a "dick move" in helping yet another talented modder make the game he actually wanted to make. (Yes, the trademark is a part of that process, if the game can't be called dota then that implies Iceyfrog has no ownership of that IP and thus could not let another company register it as a trademark)

 

[shintakie10]

-snip-

And what, may I ask, of the other people who worked on Dota that want the name to remain open source? Two guys out of the countless number of people who worked on Dota and put hundreds of hours into makin the game what it is today (or well...was I guess) and those two get the complete say so on who gets to do what with the Dota name?

Its a point that so many people are ignorin. Icefrog didn't make Dota in the first place. He took over Dota when it stalled a long time ago. It then became a completely community based map. Nearly every single thing that was added or changed in that game was because of community input. The person who physically made those changes was Icefrog, sure, but how can anyone say that it was his work and his alone and his voice is the only voice that matters in the discussion when nearly every idea that went into the game was the communities, not his alone.

Its why I find the entire thing stupid and why I feel a win from Valve is a knock against modders. In my opinion no one person has a right to Dota because if it weren't for the communities ideas and the communities love for it then Dota would be nothing. The community made the game what it is today, not Icefrog, and to ignore that is tragic.

Though I would like to point out somethin else that keeps poppin up that you brought up again Alexnader. I say Valve is pullin a dick move because even if they didn't trademark the name Dota they could still call the game Dota 2. Its a dick move, plain and simple, because there is absolutely no need for it other than to purposely keep others (not just Blizzard) from usin the Dota name. I applaud Valve for hirin Icefrog to allow him to make the game he always wanted to make, but to go out of their way to try to keep others from usin the Dota name? Thats just petty.

 

[Sunrider]

Saw a comment on DTOID I thought was spot on here.

"Blizzard doesn't really embrace the mod community so much as they just tolerate it and pretend they're part of it when something good happens.".

This is fairly evident in their recent- and upcoming games.

How this is even a contest is completely beyond me.

 

[Alexnader]

-snip-

And what, may I ask, of the other people who worked on Dota that want the name to remain open source? Two guys out of the countless number of people who worked on Dota and put hundreds of hours into makin the game what it is today (or well...was I guess) and those two get the complete say so on who gets to do what with the Dota name?

Its a point that so many people are ignorin. Icefrog didn't make Dota in the first place. He took over Dota when it stalled a long time ago. It then became a completely community based map. Nearly every single thing that was added or changed in that game was because of community input. The person who physically made those changes was Icefrog, sure, but how can anyone say that it was his work and his alone and his voice is the only voice that matters in the discussion when nearly every idea that went into the game was the communities, not his alone.

Its why I find the entire thing stupid and why I feel a win from Valve is a knock against modders. In my opinion no one person has a right to Dota because if it weren't for the communities ideas and the communities love for it then Dota would be nothing. The community made the game what it is today, not Icefrog, and to ignore that is tragic.

Though I would like to point out somethin else that keeps poppin up that you brought up again Alexnader. I say Valve is pullin a dick move because even if they didn't trademark the name Dota they could still call the game Dota 2. Its a dick move, plain and simple, because there is absolutely no need for it other than to purposely keep others (not just Blizzard) from usin the Dota name. I applaud Valve for hirin Icefrog to allow him to make the game he always wanted to make, but to go out of their way to try to keep others from usin the Dota name? Thats just petty.

From reading the history on wikipedia, Eul was the original creator, Feak mode DotA allstars which popularised it and Iceyfrog took over the maintenance. Pendragon made a community website for the game and other players added in extra bits open source style. Eul + Iceyfrog seems to give Valev a pretty good claim over it, however I could be wrong.

I still believe Valev's actions are a win for the modding community, just because the community had a lot of input doesn't mean the community owns the game. While the community may have put a lot of work into the orignal Dota, that just gives them a stake in that game rather than over the name and IP in general. Eul was the original creator and Iceyfrog vetted any changes to the game for a significant length of time, that's about as good as you can get with something like dota or any mod.

As for the idea that "valve doesn't have to trademark the name", I'd challenge you to find any AAA game where the name wasn't trademarked by somebody. Valve is doubtless sinking a lot of money into this and to have loads of other dota games spring up and trade off the hype Valve's generated with the release of this new game would be ridiculous.

Dota is bloody old, there are newer MOBA games out there that Valve needs to compete with. It doesn't need knock-offs leeching off its success.

 

[Dendio]

"[We feel] a little bit of confusion, to be honest. Certainly, DOTA came out of the Blizzard community... It just seems a really strange move to us that Valve would go off and try to exclusively trademark the term considering it's something that's been freely available to us and everyone in the Warcraft III community up to this point."

"Valve is usually so pro mod community. It's such a community company that it just seems like a really strange move to us... I really don't understand why [they would do it], to be honest."

Blizz has refrained from attempting to trade mark dota for years. They released these statements about keeping it open to the community. Valve is trying to copyright. Icefrog is not the sole owner of dota. Other dota devs have launched suits against valve and stated they dont want to have the name trademarked. I cant help but to side with blizz here

 

[Fappy]

I would say Valve is in the wrong, but my bullshit meter is going haywire when I remember a Blizz executive being quoted as saying that the two companies had a good relationship and they were not concerned about them using the name DOTA. Blizzard missed their chance imo.

If it were up to me neither developer should join the MOBA scene. I tried the Dota 2 beta and it was simply awful. Blizzard's attempt looks even worse.

 

[darkonnis]

This is kinda weird. Cause when Valve first announced theyd be making a DoTA 2, Blizzard was fine with it. Honestly I think theyd be more right to sue them over the character design, cause a lot of them are just straight ports of the ones from DoTA, whose models were those of WC3 and belong to Blizzard.

Yeah but I think they (valve) would take a hit on damages but this is a no win really for either. HoN is already there, already has a very competitive player base(full of elitism like DoTa who'd of thunk it)and has very well paid tournaments. League of legends is the game by the developers of Dota, so the fact blizzard is making their own, bit sad really, figured they may have left them and HoN to it. I very much doubt that Blizzard will successfully join that market, nothing against their ability, however the people who made dota and continue to make their follow on, do a very good job. Short of hiring them (not sure if they have, which is why i mention this) I think they'd only really have something to offer people who had starcraft 2 and didn't want to DL another game... Seeing as both alternatives are free to play.

The HoN master race sits backs and enjoys the chaos. Mwahahahaha.

IceFrog made Dota? Please fuck off. He just maintained it (poorly) and stole idea's from the non-Allstar games. Dude was a hack and still is.

IceFrog made what was a poorly designed mess (with potential) into the relatively well balanced machine DotA is now.

Yeah i'd second that, dude did good.

 

[mxfox408]

Well there may be a clause in blizzards EULA meaning they cannot attempt to market the mods that where created using thier tools and since dota was created using thier tools, it was therefore associated with Warcraft III giving blizzard the advantage in court.

 

[GoaThief]

Other dota devs have launched suits against valve and stated they dont want to have the name trademarked.

Links, please.

The years-old Blizzard comments concerning trademarking/copyrighting DotA would be cool too.

 

[cdstephens]

The rights to the name should belong to Icefrog since development was handed off to him, and also other Dota developers as well.

 

[Krois]

Not following all these DotA lore so I might be mistaken but I thought IceFrog isn't the actual creator of DotA or the genre (?); but just some person in-charged at one point when it started becoming popular.

Although Valve could've just as easily name it something else other than using the word DotA and still get its players simply because IceFrog is there which is what all DotA-fan are hype about anyway. That's what HoN and LoL did isn't it? Calling it DotA2 is just an attempt to make sure people know it is the successor of DotA.

Still, out of personal preference and grudge, I'd love and wish Blizzard to win because I being a fanboy of it and Valve banned my account mistakenly saying I cheated in a game but I didn't but they refuse to unban it when I mailed them. That accusation and wasting my money don't sit well with me.