Blizzard Defends Always-Online For Diablo III: Reaper of Souls
- Thread starter Steven Bogos
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Ugh, that sounds horrible. Having to put up with whatever crap they give you just because they're all that's there.Atmos Duality said:
Huh, haven't really noticed it that much. Still, for an API anyone can access(I think non-devs can now as well) it isn't utilised often enough. And iirc Torchlight 2 uses your Runic Games account to handle the in-game friends system.
No doubt, it was steadily going down after that. Although the RoS announcement and Blizzcon created surges of people coming back. Forums are still very active as well so at least you could say there's plenty of people that still care about it and want it to do well.
I wasn't aware that they had a /whois function implemented. All I can remember, was that there was a player counter in the beta which I think was removed either for launch or shortly after. And it popped up in one of the PTRs they had but never made it to live. And yeah, the only reason they'd disable it is if they were doing poorly and were trying to hide it. But you could say that about most devs, population counters are pretty rare.
As for botters, yeah that's always been a problem for most of Blizzard's games. Although I'd take what general forum users say about it with a quite a bit of salt because they tend to significantly overestimate these kind of things.
O_O Good luck with that.
@ Black_knight1337
Sorry I'm not quoting, as its a pain on my tablet.
I will address the programming issue first. There is a whole 2 chapters in Deitel& Deitel how to program books for c++ and java explaining how to encapsulate modular variation for code, allowing the same code with minor tweaks to be run simultaneously with one functioning locally and the other functioning on server side only. The variable tweaking/changes represent how it is viewed by the server. Because of the changing of small sections of code, you can run what is essentially the same code, with a modular variation for the data checksum on individual pieces and segments on the server side, while the local side uses a different data checksum. This is similar to digital signing, which it is based on. What it really means is that the items generated by the local code are seen by the local code as they are, while the server side only code can not process those items and will cause an exception. That exception, when applied to a game such as D3 can then have a small bit of code set to do whatever the developers choose. This type of programming will practically destroy duping and item generation or item injection.
There are literally thousands of games on android and iOS that are essentially MMOs and the majority of them have an offline functionality built in. Many of these games are similar to D3, in terms of item generation, yet they do not have any duping or item injection issues. You can not blame this on the availability of the source code, which is the basis of your arguments. Just as you can not say much about the "inability" to modify things from a PC, as there are several different iOS and android emulators available. (Including one in eclipse and the ADK).
Bots: They could be considered a problem, in terms of the community controlled economy, but beyond that they really aren't much of an issue. I went scanning the D3 user forums on 5 different sites, and in D3 bots ARE a problem. In a big way. By user estimates, somewhere between 70 and 85% of all active accounts at any point in time on the D3 servers are bots. I'll take that with a grain of salt. However without any actual user statistics being provided, there is no real way to judge.
As for the previous user statistics issued by Blizzard. They count every individual login as a unique login, even if it is from the same IP address. As long as there is a specific interval between those log-ins. What that interval is I could not find.
Rust-storm and Ladder.
In D2, there was very little duping and item injection going on on the ladder server. If any at all. Yes there were lots of things people considered odd, however I can safely say that the amount of proclaimed duping and the amount of actual duping happening were vastly different. I had several people complain about some of the items I was using, claiming that they were duped, when in fact they were legitimate things that I either collected myself or re-rolled. It took me months to get a decent amazon torch, which I had acquired myself by opening up Tristram for someone else to clear it for me. After some time, I was able to do Tristram runs on my own with a bowZon. I was giving away torches and Anni charms on a regular basis (the Anni charms were much more difficult for me to acquire, as luck was involved in finding the server instances where D would spawn). Many people also complained about some of the extra rare items I would give away, even knowing that a person who played and was level 96 could generate every possible prefix and affix combination available in the game through drops or gambling, yet the +3 skill tree circlets I would regular get from gambling were almost always considered dupes by people (hence why I gave them away). People would also regularly state that any SoJ was duped, no matter what, even though it was available as a drop from Andariel in the first act, and could be farmed by anyone with a level 30+ character.
Things were a bit different on the open/non-ladder servers, as they did not have rust-storms at all. I never played there, so I am unsure of how things worked out for people. However, on the ladder, the rust-storm was done upon game enter. So anything you had in your stash or inventory that was duplicated or injected was removed upon entering a game. I will admit, that it could be possible to force drops, duplicate or inject items within a specific game instance, however they would not be permanent items due to how the rust-storm worked and functioned.
I also understand that there are and were many people interested in PvP, however PvP wasn't tracked on the ladder. And of the many PvPers I talked with (best customers for interesting items, and they paid in gold,useful for gambling), the only hack that was ever brought up was actually a glitch in which a pure PnB Necro would fire teeth through walls.
Since the majority of PvP equipment is fundamentally different than PvE in D2, there wasnt as much to be concerned with.
Sorry I'm not quoting, as its a pain on my tablet.
I will address the programming issue first. There is a whole 2 chapters in Deitel& Deitel how to program books for c++ and java explaining how to encapsulate modular variation for code, allowing the same code with minor tweaks to be run simultaneously with one functioning locally and the other functioning on server side only. The variable tweaking/changes represent how it is viewed by the server. Because of the changing of small sections of code, you can run what is essentially the same code, with a modular variation for the data checksum on individual pieces and segments on the server side, while the local side uses a different data checksum. This is similar to digital signing, which it is based on. What it really means is that the items generated by the local code are seen by the local code as they are, while the server side only code can not process those items and will cause an exception. That exception, when applied to a game such as D3 can then have a small bit of code set to do whatever the developers choose. This type of programming will practically destroy duping and item generation or item injection.
There are literally thousands of games on android and iOS that are essentially MMOs and the majority of them have an offline functionality built in. Many of these games are similar to D3, in terms of item generation, yet they do not have any duping or item injection issues. You can not blame this on the availability of the source code, which is the basis of your arguments. Just as you can not say much about the "inability" to modify things from a PC, as there are several different iOS and android emulators available. (Including one in eclipse and the ADK).
Bots: They could be considered a problem, in terms of the community controlled economy, but beyond that they really aren't much of an issue. I went scanning the D3 user forums on 5 different sites, and in D3 bots ARE a problem. In a big way. By user estimates, somewhere between 70 and 85% of all active accounts at any point in time on the D3 servers are bots. I'll take that with a grain of salt. However without any actual user statistics being provided, there is no real way to judge.
As for the previous user statistics issued by Blizzard. They count every individual login as a unique login, even if it is from the same IP address. As long as there is a specific interval between those log-ins. What that interval is I could not find.
Rust-storm and Ladder.
In D2, there was very little duping and item injection going on on the ladder server. If any at all. Yes there were lots of things people considered odd, however I can safely say that the amount of proclaimed duping and the amount of actual duping happening were vastly different. I had several people complain about some of the items I was using, claiming that they were duped, when in fact they were legitimate things that I either collected myself or re-rolled. It took me months to get a decent amazon torch, which I had acquired myself by opening up Tristram for someone else to clear it for me. After some time, I was able to do Tristram runs on my own with a bowZon. I was giving away torches and Anni charms on a regular basis (the Anni charms were much more difficult for me to acquire, as luck was involved in finding the server instances where D would spawn). Many people also complained about some of the extra rare items I would give away, even knowing that a person who played and was level 96 could generate every possible prefix and affix combination available in the game through drops or gambling, yet the +3 skill tree circlets I would regular get from gambling were almost always considered dupes by people (hence why I gave them away). People would also regularly state that any SoJ was duped, no matter what, even though it was available as a drop from Andariel in the first act, and could be farmed by anyone with a level 30+ character.
Things were a bit different on the open/non-ladder servers, as they did not have rust-storms at all. I never played there, so I am unsure of how things worked out for people. However, on the ladder, the rust-storm was done upon game enter. So anything you had in your stash or inventory that was duplicated or injected was removed upon entering a game. I will admit, that it could be possible to force drops, duplicate or inject items within a specific game instance, however they would not be permanent items due to how the rust-storm worked and functioned.
I also understand that there are and were many people interested in PvP, however PvP wasn't tracked on the ladder. And of the many PvPers I talked with (best customers for interesting items, and they paid in gold,useful for gambling), the only hack that was ever brought up was actually a glitch in which a pure PnB Necro would fire teeth through walls.
Since the majority of PvP equipment is fundamentally different than PvE in D2, there wasnt as much to be concerned with.
Yes, a company claiming any form of DRM is good for everyone is not suspicious in any way what so ever. At all. You're all insane to question if things seem unfair. Don't think so hard about it and take it easy. Now give them your money and continue not thinking about it. Not worth your effort, too much work to worry about it.
/point
/point
...I can't help but think that they're not trying to solve the problem very hard if the solution they come up with divides their player base. I play Armored Core Verdict Day. It has an online mode and an offline mode. This is acceptable because the persistent territory system and team stuff sort of has to be online. It's that part of the game. But I can play the game without that if I want. And you know what? They verify the data with their servers so they're sure people can't hack things when I go online again. It's still shitty when it removes my emblems and doesn't let me transfer the data between accounts, but it's better than no offline mode. What the fuck is Blizzard trying to accomplish?
Firstly, thanks for pointing towards those books. They look like they'll be a good read, not only for this but in general. Now onto the topic at hand. I'm not saying that offline mode = hacks but rather offline mode allows them to experiment in a safe environment which in turn makes it an easier process. As for the process you are suggesting, it wouldn't go to far in actually preventing hacks occurring, at best it will slow would-be hackers down. Here's an example of what I mean.Vylox said:
Say you are trying to develop a hack, you are monitoring how the local server and the client are interacting trying to find something that you can exploit. Then you see the way map data gets handled, you go "great, I'll be able to have the map permanently 100% visible now!" and get to work trying various methods to use that data to your advantage. Soon after you eventually get it to work as planned and you're running around in single-player with your map hack. The next logical step for you is taking a risk and applying it to the online version. The first thing you do is try to directly apply it just like it worked locally but it doesn't end up doing anything. So you then you start monitoring the interaction between your client and the online server(evidence shows that's viable). As you know what you're looking for, it doesn't take nearly as long as it did originally it. You rework your hack a little and bam, it works for the online version.
Now compare this to having now offline mode. You start monitoring the client and server interactions, after a while you spot some exploitable map data. You then set out to developing the same hack above and start trying them out on the server as you go along. After a few attempts you get a message "You have been disconnected from the server" and upon trying to log back in you find out you've been banned. Now of course you could get another account and try and again and repeat until it ends up working but the thing is, you've let Blizzard know that there is a possible exploit there. There's nothing stopping them trying to find out how you were trying to exploit it and then making some edits to stop it happening or at the very least invalidate what you've already done.
Yep, but with the economy having such a vital role in games like Diablo it becomes a pretty big deal. But yeah, they're a problem in D3, much like a lot of other games. As for those statistics, they're only a little overestimated and by a little I mean a good 40-50%. There was a thread some time ago that went through it based on the 1 million per day, 3 million per month stats that Blizzard gave us. They made the assumptions that bots would log in every day and that actual players would only log in once in any given month. The figures they got were somewhere comfortable under 1 million(which was only 33% at the time). Of course there's a margin of error but they are much more believable than random players using stats like you suggested(The same players claim they aren't playing ever again and then remain active).
And do they? Can you link a source on that? I would have thought it would be something like; user x logs in, gets added to a database if they aren't already, then every 24 hours get a total player count and clear the stats.
Yeah, I know. People are always quick to call you a hacker even when it's something as simple as a bit of RNG. But when you've had items you've received in trades just vanish and end up being banned for it then you know that duping is definitely still going on. The rust storm stuff doesn't do anything to stop people duping a desirable item and trading it to someone else in a single session.
Obviously the hacks were on a larger scale as there was no deterrent at all and of course duped items never got taken out of the economy either. But that's fine because it's to be expected of an open system and hell, it's even fun at times to just run a few hacks and breeze through the game.
most on this thread 'oh boohoo always online, is so problematic boo' soo what about.. when you are connected to a social network and always some kind of connected to the internet. But when a game asks for it 'OH NO THE HORROR'.. Hypocrites..
i for one will be looking forward to Reaper of Souls, withouth the AH, a step further to the goold ol' and the 2.0 looting system <3
i for one will be looking forward to Reaper of Souls, withouth the AH, a step further to the goold ol' and the 2.0 looting system <3
I'm connected to the internet now so I'm always connected to the internet? That's more than a little fallacious.EvilMaggot said:
I get what he's saying, I remember people complaining about the offline/online character problem, it was never a big deal but sometimes it was a shame. The way we dealt with it? We made online characters...
Diablo is a franchise which seriously encourages multiple characters, even of the same class (aye even with D3). Most people wouldn't be too pissed with needing to create separate characters for online and offline, most wouldn't give two shits to be frank.
I do agree that there's a difference between the console and the PC versions of Diablo though, as someone who ran a character editor for single player in order to experiment with different builds (back before respeccing was a thing on D2) I remember how simple even the most complex of things were...I also remember how lovely some mods were, mods which would be impossible with DRM.
Just...it's all wrong, yes consoles have a more legitimate reason to have characters allowed offline, yes people did complain when offline characters couldn't go online but it's not like that justifies DRM. They're presenting an awful solution to something which isn't really a problem at all. Just give us both modes, give us options and choices and stop treating your customers like inbred children. The option is easy to implement and solves by far the biggest continuing complaint with Diablo 3 and yet they point it out as some kind of huge negative in the past as opposed to the simple solution that it was.
It would have been smarter if they turned Diablo III into an MMO. At least that way they would have had a decent excuse for why it would have to be Always Online. I thought about buying the PS3 version but that would mean some of my money would go to Blizzard; so I am just never going to play the game.
Scorpid said:
WoW has made Blizzard lazy as hell. WoW is the ultimate financial safety net for Blizzard. It is nearly impossible for Blizzard to screw themselves up permanently when the enormous cash cow called WoW still exists.
This means Blizzard definitely won't put in 110% into their games. Maybe an 80%. Simply because they can afford to make less well made games and still get by with nearly no problems.
Mark my words. Blizzard's arrogance will lead to their down-fall some day. WoW may be a giant, but it won't last forever....
When I buy a game. I own it. So I can do anything I want with it. I can tie it to a tree, use it as backscratcher, or I can play it.EvilMaggot said:
If a game demands me to be ALWAYS online to even play it, that erodes at my right of ownership. ( And always online always causes more problems than it fixes anyway. Look at simcity. )
So why bother? Make a game offline singleplayer and online multiplayer. It has ALWAYS been like that. BUt no, someone HAD to rock the boat for some obscure reason
Since Blizz seems willing to wear the daddy pants and tell the hard truths to consumers, wouldn't the more rational choice have been to tell the consumers clearly and finally and with all necessary explanations "You can't take an off-line character and play it on-line for the following reasons. Choose which you want to play and play it". That explanation treats the consumer as a rational intelligent being capable of making choices.
Unfortunately they hide behind the online/offline character divide as an excuse for why off-line wasn't offered. That treats the consumer like a blithering idiot, since anyone can see that EVERYTHING about the game-play is happening inside your own computer and none of it actually requires an online connection when you're playing story mode by yourself. That's why consumers are pissed - because the on-line only mode is totally un-necessary and restrictive.
Unfortunately they hide behind the online/offline character divide as an excuse for why off-line wasn't offered. That treats the consumer like a blithering idiot, since anyone can see that EVERYTHING about the game-play is happening inside your own computer and none of it actually requires an online connection when you're playing story mode by yourself. That's why consumers are pissed - because the on-line only mode is totally un-necessary and restrictive.
The console version negates every single word that came out of his mouth. It's almost hilarious.
Ubisoft did it before Blizzard.. remember ? the always online in the AC2 singleplayer ?Lictor Face said:
Exception handling and data recognition are how many games are able to supply both offline and online modes. Since the server reads the data and checks its algorithmic string code (its item ID basically) you could program the I'd data in different fashions/ways for offline and online. Which is the only difference. Since the code for the item I'd data is server-side and not local for the online version, and it is stored server side, even if a person is looking for it, they won't be able to see access or use it.black_knight1337 said:
It is slightly different for the map, but that is kind of moot and pointless, as the maps themselves while random become extremely repetitive after you have seen them a few thousand times. (I could start a new D2 character, go into a game and know the fastest route to anywhere in any act based upon how the first viewable section looks. An there are many others who could do the same).
The user statistics are handled the same way that they are for StarCraft 2 and WoW,which is interval based. That interval is whatever they have set for their memory datadump. Since D3 is instance based, they must do frequent data dumps daily in order to ensure that their servers don't get overloaded. Its the reason game rooms expire after a period of time. (This is available information from blizzard BTW, I found it in their own sponsored links). Because of how their database servers are being used by D3, they have to flush the cache and make regular data dumps. If your character isn't online at the time of the data dump or flush, the next time you log in, even if it is during the same day, you get counted as a unique log-in. Since the record you your previous log in has been discarded, even if you were already counted. To do it your way would increase server load, as the IP or unique copy code would have to be recorded and stored and then searched for ever single log-in that is made. Its based on efficiency and server load. Counting every login as unique is more efficient code (requiring less actuals code) and doesn't require server resources to keep track of specific individual login counts.
The thing about bots.... Some claim them to be bad, others say they are OK, some don't care, others like them. Its entirely relative. I understand that they can potentially ruin a game's player driven economy, however as most bots are extremely selective about the items they collect when running as farmers, anyone can easily collect the extra stuff, that the person who runs the not considers trash, but they might find useful or others might want. So in a way they can benefit the economy also.especially as they generally decrease the in-game currency costs of desirable items.
For the dupes, yes that could be an issue, but who is to say what is desirable at any given time? In d2 the most desirable items were keys and organs, and possibly runes. Most other items were on an individual basis. I spent weeks trying to find a buyer for a flawless Twitch, and weeks trying to get a good shaftstop, yet I could trade garbage high level affix charms instantly no questions asked. At other times, I couldn't even give away skill charms, yet Twitch and SS jumped in price to 2-3 Shakos each. So those who would choose to dupe had to pay attention to the current market trends, which were different for each server chain and changed practically by the hour. That is just not worth the effort.
Ahhh, how suave Blizzard is. Right up there with the classic "We make games, not promises" response on the WoW forums as to why Blizzard promised things and didn't deliver them.
At the end of the day I'd imagine Blizzard wants always online because they figure it's easier to police that way, where with an offline game, it becomes easier to pirate and for pirates to enjoy on their own. I'm actually surprised they haven't just broken down and started ranting about everyone being thieves and out to get them....
To be honest I do not care for "always online" games because I find them a pain, and honestly if I ever find myself unable to afford decent internet (which might happen) I could wind up with a number of titles I'm fond of totally beyond my reach to play.
The thing is though that there is no real regulation of the game industry and how badly they can mess with consumers. It can pretty much say "hey, you either do it like this, or not at all" no matter how ridiculous it gets. People who want to game either tolerate it, or need to find another hobby. I've been of the opinion for a while that we do need some aspects of the government to get involved here and seriously limit what the gaming industry can do as far as DRM, and forcing games that are not MMOs always online. Perhaps most importantly I believe games that sell virtual property and/or rely on external servers need to be backed by a trust fund as part of the development costs which exists to ensure their operation in perpetuity, even if literally nobody plays the game for decades. In 30 years your virtual property or online server requiring game should be able to be played on the original hardware if you so choose to plug it in. With the budgets used for games nowadays it's actually not that hard to expect some of that money to be used for a trust.
At the end of the day I'd imagine Blizzard wants always online because they figure it's easier to police that way, where with an offline game, it becomes easier to pirate and for pirates to enjoy on their own. I'm actually surprised they haven't just broken down and started ranting about everyone being thieves and out to get them....
To be honest I do not care for "always online" games because I find them a pain, and honestly if I ever find myself unable to afford decent internet (which might happen) I could wind up with a number of titles I'm fond of totally beyond my reach to play.
The thing is though that there is no real regulation of the game industry and how badly they can mess with consumers. It can pretty much say "hey, you either do it like this, or not at all" no matter how ridiculous it gets. People who want to game either tolerate it, or need to find another hobby. I've been of the opinion for a while that we do need some aspects of the government to get involved here and seriously limit what the gaming industry can do as far as DRM, and forcing games that are not MMOs always online. Perhaps most importantly I believe games that sell virtual property and/or rely on external servers need to be backed by a trust fund as part of the development costs which exists to ensure their operation in perpetuity, even if literally nobody plays the game for decades. In 30 years your virtual property or online server requiring game should be able to be played on the original hardware if you so choose to plug it in. With the budgets used for games nowadays it's actually not that hard to expect some of that money to be used for a trust.
Switch off your Xbox Live by unplugging your wireless router.EvilMaggot said:
Bam, offline AC2 campaign.
Hell my xbox has been offline long time ago when i even bought AC2. Only got Live recently.
AC2 is a bad example as a person with an offline xbox can play it. Its sort of "optional" online play. But you certainly can't play diablo 3 or simcity with your internet down.
There will always be client to server interactions and having an offline mode will give them a safe environment to find ways to exploit them. The only way that it wouldn't end up like that is if everything(other than input) is handled server side which would mean the online version would just be a mess of lag and desync rendering it unplayable(at least with current tech). The only other way you can prevent the offline mode being a testing ground for would-be hackers is if you drastically change the code for the online version making whatever they learn in offline mode pointless in online mode. Other than what's mentioned above the best thing you can do is what Blizzard have done for D3. While it may not be un-hackable or anything it gives them time to identify people trying to hack, punish them before they get to far and then fix the hole in their security.Vylox said:
Link? It makes sense so it'd ease server load but then it makes the numbers it generates near on pointless.
EDIT: Couldn't they just check your last online date? That's already being stored so it shouldn't cause that much extra work or even have your last online date stored locally, have the client check if it's been 24 hours and if so let whatever code tells the server there's a unique log in run and update the file.
There's two main kinds of bots. The first are like you describe, picking up only a select few types of items. These ones hurt people that also want to sell these items because they are rapidly pushing up the supply. Higher supply = lower prices = less profit. The other type target gold. These ones hurt both people using gold to trade(not as big of a deal in D2 because it became item based but D3 is gold based atm) and people looking to craft for profit because it quickly devalues gold making drops worth more gold and crafts worth less in comparison. Of course you could look at the benefit of it ie. letting people leech easily.
Static items would be the easiest to do as the good ones are always desirable. But like you say, regular gear would be a lot harder. Wouldn't say it's not worth the effort though.
While I can agree that almost all of the electronic devices I use have an internet connection, if for some reason said internet connection should cut out inexplicably, all of those devices will not suddenly CEASE TO FUNCTION. They have some kind of offline capability of use. And for the most part, its not that we don't want to have online capability, its that we don't want to HAVE to have online capability. We want to be able to enjoy the game on our own, without the threat of lag spikes, or internet loss interrupting our sessions. And if that comes at the cost of that character being forever locked offline, fine. If I wanted to play online, I'd have chosen to do so.EvilMaggot said:
