Blizzard Dev Offers Apology for Response to Sexualization Question

[Dragonbums]

-snip-

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that front.

You understand where I'm coming from, and I understand where your coming from.

However I feel that this is an idealist vs. realistic sort of scenario.

We aren't disagreeing with the core problem of the arguments presented here, but our reactions to it are quite different. Nothing either of us says is going to change it so there is no sense in continuing this discussion on what could be an increasingly bad note.

 

[runic knight]

-snip-

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that front.

You understand where I'm coming from, and I understand where your coming from.

However I feel that this is an idealist vs. realistic sort of scenario.

We aren't disagreeing with the core problem of the arguments presented here, but our reactions to it are quite different. Nothing either of us says is going to change it so there is no sense in continuing this discussion on what could be an increasingly bad note.

I suppose, glad this conversation didn't turn bad at least.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Um, most female WoW player characters once they pick up some gear? Gear that is all enclosing on males and yet somehow little more than a midriff exposing chainmail bikini on a female? And before you say they're not high profile, who do you see more often? A random NPC or the thousands of chars running about?

K.

Do you actually play WoW these days? That might have been true at some point (though not really, looking back through tier sets of previous expansions), it's certainly not now. You smugly add 'K' to the end of your post as though you just closed on a slam dunk point, but you didn't. You made a point that was completely false.

But let's assume for a moment that the majority of tier gear and high end pvp sets do show off a lot of ass (they don't), there is a feature in the game where you can make your gear look like any other piece of gear. Deflates the argument entirely, doesn't it? There are slutty options, modest options, and options somewhere in the middle. How women in Warcraft look is entirely up to the women (or the men playing as women).

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Already quite a long thread, but mark me down for: dev gave totally legit answer to a directed question, interviewer was clearly lining up his soapbox in advance, and gender politics in this industry have long passed the point of embarrassing.

The reason some people, even folks who consider themselves enlightened, are so fucking tired of this issue is that we've got way more than enough print already. It's time for people to either put up (aka spend money on projects that meet their aesthetic preferences or DON'T or make their own games to fill any void) or move on. It's gotten to the point where I flat out skip several gaming sites because they're caught up on social justice issues that a) most everyone agrees with to some extent, and b) aren't going to change a goddamn lick unless the raw economics dictate it.

You know, there's gotta be a niche in there somewhere for a gaming site that doesn't capitulate to publishers OR ride high on the smell of its own farts. Right now, everything is one or the other.

 

[Karnesdorff]

Do you actually play WoW these days? That might have been true at some point (though not really, looking back through tier sets of previous expansions), it's certainly not now.

But let's assume for a moment that the majority of tier gear and high end pvp sets do show off a lot of ass (they don't), there is a feature in the game where you can make your gear look like any other piece of gear. Deflates the argument entirely, doesn't it? There are slutty options, modest options, and options somewhere in the middle. How women in Warcraft look is entirely up to the women (or the men playing as women).

Um, before writing this, you might have wanted to have read my post just 5 posts above yours. It answers a lot of this and I'm not repeating myself.

Also...

You smugly add 'K' to the end of your post as though you just closed on a slam dunk point, but you didn't. You made a point that was completely false.

Dude look at my user name, what letter does it start with? So instead of thinking it might be me signing off, you decided it was clearly me being a smug asshole? Yeah... For the record, who on earth marks a 'slam dunk point' by putting a 'K' after it? What on earth would that mean? The amount of kilobytes I think I've added to my e-peen with that point? I'm afraid I can't be held accountable for meanings that exist just in your head.

K.

 

[EyeReaper]

As a big fan of anime, I think I can recognize oversexualization, and to be honest I don't really see it in WoW, this can be seen just in the races itself.
I mean, look at things like the Pandaren (chubby, furry, pandas) and gnomes (fun sized midgets) Sure, my gnome sorceress had a dress with cleavage down to her belly button, but on a figure like that, I didn't once consider it sexualization. That's not saying someone out there doesn't find the gnomes/pandas/zombies sexy, but that's more of fetishization, which is completely different.

Anyways, ot: I liked this guy's response. A creator should be able to create what they want that's their prerogative. Of course, you're free to disagree.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Um, before writing this, you might have wanted to have read my post just 5 posts above yours. It answers a lot of this and I'm not repeating myself.

Went ahead and read your previous post. Mine is still accurate given the updated context. Warcraft has some outfits that are sluttier as the female version than the male, but the fact remains most gear does not behave that way so no "message" is being sent. You provided three examples, and I know from experience there are more, but I also know that the overwhelming majority of armor on female avatars is designed more to look cool than look sexy.

Dude look at my user name, what letter does it start with? So instead of thinking it might be me signing off, you decided it was clearly me being a smug asshole? Yeah...

A fair point.

 

[Callate]

About Violence: We've grown up on said violence. It's been around for quite some time, even before 3d games. If this sort of thing were going ot make us all players violent psychopaths, the world would be reduced to ash about now.

About Sexualization: It's been kinda rare before games went 3d, I'd say. The graphics just weren't really there. When things went 3d, it kinda exploded.
In my experience, women are presented in demeaning manners, and are treated in demeaning manners to say the very least.
When women don't want to be represented that way, well, you see people rallying against the women that don't want it.

So, yeah, Violence prohecy hasn't really happened. Sexualization/demeaning? Actually happening. That's the difference, IMO.

I dunno who's pushing for women to be weak, feminist or not... well, game developers regularly don't let women be powerful, so there's that.
I dunno if it's really a push, though. Just... laziness, and the producers fighting against female protagonists, and reducing their agency.

Back in the late eighties, I played an arcade/adventure game that involved sending various members of a military squad down to a hostile alien planet. The characters were little more than a name and a weapon, but one reviwer noted that the two characters identified as female were the two lowest-ranked members, that they were equipped with what amounted to a water gun and nothing at all, and that the manual that came with the game actually encouraged using the "expendable" character with no weapon for scouting purposes (that is, wade into enemy territory and quickly die.)

It's easy to point to something so obvious and say it points to a devaluing of the female characters; even back then, with a smaller and more segmented community of gamers, more than one reviewer raised an eyebrow at those mechanics.

It's more difficult, at least for me, when the difference between characters is solely an aesthetic one.

Particularly in a genre like MOBAs, MMOs, or more combat-centric RPGs, where players are quick to single out characters and types that don't "work", it's a high priority for those who engineer system mechanics to make certain that every character type can be played effectively. If a female character is weaker than her male countepart, she quickly becomes a waste of development time.

I can certainly understand where female players would have a problem where there's no female avatars at all for them to embody, especially when all the non-playable female characters are presented as weak and helpless or worse. It's harder for me to understand why a female character being represented as "sexy" is harmful, independent of other factors (sex or sexuality being the defining feature of all characterization, diminishing of that character's utility, etc.)

That there are some boorish and anger-spewing men out there, I can't deny; regular news feeds certainly provide fodder for that idea. But I've also seen message boards full of women creating armor and skins for their characters that were more "fun and flirty" (their words, not mine); I've read accounts from people who have played with both female and male avatars in RPGs have noted that while some were more likely to accept leadership from characters perceived as "male", they also reported people were often more friendly and willing to help out characters perceived as "female". My own limited experiences with MMOs reflect that experience.

It's difficult for me to make the leap that "sexy character" inherently leads to "disprespecting women", that "some people are uncomforable with this" or "some people want characters to continue being presented like this" automatically equates to "this harms women" or "this leads men to believe wrong and hostile things about women". It's the reason I brought up the violence comparison; it seems to me like a leap of faith, or a leap of cynicism, depending on how one wanted to view it.

But I also know I may just be standing at the wrong vantage point. I have a vested stake in believing that men are better than that. I think I can enjoy looking at a woman as sexually attractive without thinking less of her as a human, even in the limited context in which any character is presented to the audience of a video game at all. But I don't have any way of knowing if I'm an exception, or even if I'm under-estimating the effect such presentations have on my own thinking.

The best I can conclude is that the "sex appeal" female character shouldn't be eliminated entirely, but that that it also shouldn't be the overwhelming majority of all playable female characters, and that there should usually be alternatives for those who feel uncomfortable embodying such avatars.

 

[Zeckt]

And people wonder why there are so few female characters, as they are always put under a microscope and brew up shit storms like this. If women want better representation, then people need to stop these head hunts.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

About Violence: We've grown up on said violence. It's been around for quite some time, even before 3d games. If this sort of thing were going ot make us all players violent psychopaths, the world would be reduced to ash about now.

About Sexualization: It's been kinda rare before games went 3d, I'd say. The graphics just weren't really there. When things went 3d, it kinda exploded.
In my experience, women are presented in demeaning manners, and are treated in demeaning manners to say the very least.
When women don't want to be represented that way, well, you see people rallying against the women that don't want it.

So, yeah, Violence prohecy hasn't really happened. Sexualization/demeaning? Actually happening. That's the difference, IMO.

I dunno who's pushing for women to be weak, feminist or not... well, game developers regularly don't let women be powerful, so there's that.
I dunno if it's really a push, though. Just... laziness, and the producers fighting against female protagonists, and reducing their agency.

Back in the late eighties, I played an arcade/adventure game that involved sending various members of a military squad down to a hostile alien planet. The characters were little more than a name and a weapon, but one reviwer noted that the two characters identified as female were the two lowest-ranked members, that they were equipped with what amounted to a water gun and nothing at all, and that the manual that came with the game actually encouraged using the "expendable" character with no weapon for scouting purposes (that is, wade into enemy territory and quickly die.)

It's easy to point to something so obvious and say it points to a devaluing of the female characters; even back then, with a smaller and more segmented community of gamers, more than one reviewer raised an eyebrow at those mechanics.

It's more difficult, at least for me, when the difference between characters is solely an aesthetic one.

Particularly in a genre like MOBAs, MMOs, or more combat-centric RPGs, where players are quick to single out characters and types that don't "work", it's a high priority for those who engineer system mechanics to make certain that every character type can be played effectively. If a female character is weaker than her male countepart, she quickly becomes a waste of development time.

I can certainly understand where female players would have a problem where there's no female avatars at all for them to embody, especially when all the non-playable female characters are presented as weak and helpless or worse. It's harder for me to understand why a female character being represented as "sexy" is harmful, independent of other factors (sex or sexuality being the defining feature of all characterization, diminishing of that character's utility, etc.)

That there are some boorish and anger-spewing men out there, I can't deny; regular news feeds certainly provide fodder for that idea. But I've also seen message boards full of women creating armor and skins for their characters that were more "fun and flirty" (their words, not mine); I've read accounts from people who have played with both female and male avatars in RPGs have noted that while some were more likely to accept leadership from characters perceived as "male", they also reported people were often more friendly and willing to help out characters perceived as "female". My own limited experiences with MMOs reflect that experience.

It's difficult for me to make the leap that "sexy character" inherently leads to "disprespecting women", that "some people are uncomforable with this" or "some people want characters to continue being presented like this" automatically equates to "this harms women" or "this leads men to believe wrong and hostile things about women". It's the reason I brought up the violence comparison; it seems to me like a leap of faith, or a leap of cynicism, depending on how one wanted to view it.

But I also know I may just be standing at the wrong vantage point. I have a vested stake in believing that men are better than that. I think I can enjoy looking at a woman as sexually attractive without thinking less of her as a human, even in the limited context in which any character is presented to the audience of a video game at all. But I don't have any way of knowing if I'm an exception, or even if I'm under-estimating the effect such presentations have on my own thinking.

The best I can conclude is that the "sex appeal" female character shouldn't be eliminated entirely, but that that it also shouldn't be the overwhelming majority of all playable female characters, and that there should usually be alternatives for those who feel uncomfortable embodying such avatars.

I can't really argue about your point of view MOBAS, and MMOs. Every character has to work at what they do, even if some work better than others. Like fighting games, MOBA, and MMO are somewhat unique to the rest of the industry. They generally have diversity in personality, and appearances for both genders, and each character should have some way of being useful.

There's all kinds of people, yes. It's just a matter of who meets enough people that makes putting up the worst tolerable.

The problems of having a lack of female avatars to project into, the NPCs generally weak, and the sexual designs are problems to varying degrees, but the fact that all of these combine makes matters worse.

On the problems with "sexy" it's the presentation of it. The game industry has a bad habit of relying on beautiful women wearing next to nothing, or leaving little to the imagination. Average rarely factors in, and below average pretty much never. When the majority of the characters are made to be oggled at by guys, it's kinda repugnant. Women don't feel like the characters are made so women feel sexy on their own terms or feel like they're looking good on their own terms, rather it feels like it's being done for others, and little else.
Sometimes women just don't want to look at women dressed to attract men. Sometimes they want to see women dressed like the would in day to day real life, or something reasonably close.
When women make "fun and flirty" appearances, they generally do this on their own terms. If it's nice for others to look at, then generally, it's a bonus (provided the onlookers don't react in an unwanted way). If they don't want to look "fun and flirty" but have little choice, it really takes out the "fun" part. It starts going into the dehumanizing and disrespecting area.
Generally, the industry's portrayal of women sends an image that pretty much every woman in their games is designed to be looked at by guys, and little else. Most women being NPCs really helps drive the point home, IMO.
It's not a welcoming notion. The lack of inclusiveness kills the desire to partake.
It's kinda the reverse of what guys go through in the gaming industry, really.


I don't know if you're a minority in your views with your vantage point or not.

You came to the right conclusion, IMO. Don't entirely eliminate sexual apprearances, just have a variety of appearances.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

And people wonder why there are so few female characters, as they are always put under a microscope and brew up shit storms like this. If women want better representation, then people need to stop these head hunts.

Honestly, I think you have it a bit backwards. The reason that the women are under such microscopes is because they're pretty much the only ones to look at.

If there were many female characters, there'd likely be more opinions, and that'd lead to less women being under the microscope.

I hadn't noticed much of a headhunt for most of the time videogames existed (80's, 90's, and early 2k), and the depiction of women in games has pretty much gotten trashier, and trashier. Leaving it alone isn't likely going to help get better representation. It's just going to come off as complacent and allow representation to largely stay where it is, or get worse.

 

[Eve Charm]

And people wonder why there are so few female characters, as they are always put under a microscope and brew up shit storms like this. If women want better representation, then people need to stop these head hunts.

Honestly, I think you have it a bit backwards. The reason that the women are under such microscopes is because they're pretty much the only ones to look at.

If there were many female characters, there'd likely be more opinions, and that'd lead to less women being under the microscope.

I hadn't noticed much of a headhunt for most of the time videogames existed (80's, 90's, and early 2k), and the depiction of women in games has pretty much gotten trashier, and trashier. Leaving it alone isn't likely going to help get better representation. It's just going to come off as complacent and allow representation to largely stay where it is, or get worse.

Ya but the same can be said for men in gaming. This gen has really not been much other then your same old male stereotypes or just the plain old macho dude hero type. Only a handful of games are really building the complete package of a character anymore most now are just reusing a stereotype or giving you the choice of what gender you are to make your own package.

At this point it seems people are ACTIVELY trying to fine ways to not be happy with characters. People just keep nitpicking every single one that comes out to say it doesn't count. People have different opinions, Your never going to make something everyone will be happy with.

 

[LetalisK]

Wow, that's really stupid. I get wanting better representation for women. I'm one of those people. But this particular incident is a complete nontroversy. Things like this do not help our cause.

 

[Redd the Sock]

And people wonder why there are so few female characters, as they are always put under a microscope and brew up shit storms like this. If women want better representation, then people need to stop these head hunts.

Honestly, I think you have it a bit backwards. The reason that the women are under such microscopes is because they're pretty much the only ones to look at.

If there were many female characters, there'd likely be more opinions, and that'd lead to less women being under the microscope.

I hadn't noticed much of a headhunt for most of the time videogames existed (80's, 90's, and early 2k), and the depiction of women in games has pretty much gotten trashier, and trashier. Leaving it alone isn't likely going to help get better representation. It's just going to come off as complacent and allow representation to largely stay where it is, or get worse.

The problem is, the veracity of the examination is can be very off putting, if not threatening. I've said for a while now that the reason we aren't getting a Wonder Woman movie stems largely from an image of feminists that would look at the thing as if they were looking for problems to bring up, and would call for the director's head if she looked the wrong way at steve trevor or something. Gaming isn't much different. We've seen Mass Effect's Miranda thrown under the bus because for everything she is, it seems to be invalidated entirely by her outfit: An outfit which is hardly a chainmail bikini. When it comes off as all or nothing, you get guys like in the interview trying to be diplomatic in how they say they really don't care about trying to please people that seem impossible to please.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

And people wonder why there are so few female characters, as they are always put under a microscope and brew up shit storms like this. If women want better representation, then people need to stop these head hunts.

Honestly, I think you have it a bit backwards. The reason that the women are under such microscopes is because they're pretty much the only ones to look at.

If there were many female characters, there'd likely be more opinions, and that'd lead to less women being under the microscope.

I hadn't noticed much of a headhunt for most of the time videogames existed (80's, 90's, and early 2k), and the depiction of women in games has pretty much gotten trashier, and trashier. Leaving it alone isn't likely going to help get better representation. It's just going to come off as complacent and allow representation to largely stay where it is, or get worse.

Ya but the same can be said for men in gaming. This gen has really not been much other then your same old male stereotypes or just the plain old macho dude hero type. Only a handful of games are really building the complete package of a character anymore most now are just reusing a stereotype or giving you the choice of what gender you are to make your own package.

At this point it seems people are ACTIVELY trying to fine ways to not be happy with characters. People just keep nitpicking every single one that comes out to say it doesn't count. People have different opinions, Your never going to make something everyone will be happy with.

I can't fully agree that guys get it the same. I mean, yeah, they've gotten more detailed muscles, and stubble, and better hair where applicable, but I don't think sexualization, or looking trashy is really the goal with them so much as looking cool. It's not very often they're made into eyecandy NPCs.
It's not entirely fair to say it as there's been far more guys, but I'd say this generation has seen more well rounded male characters than women have by a long shot.

I'm not saying that guys haven't gotten poorly written characters, but due to the law of statistics, they've gotten a fair amount.

I can sorta agree that people are actively looking to find ways to not be happy with characters, but I still believe it's easier to find things to not like with female characters because, well, please bear with me, here.
Say your car gets totalled. You can't afford a brand new one. You go to a small car lot, and a lot of the cars aren't cheap, and aren't well made. It's easier to complain about the maybe 5 cars there because it's easier to gather info on them.
You go to a larger car lot, and see 30 used cars. It's harder to get information. Maybe harder to get a solid opinion. It'll likely be easier to find one that's satisfactory.
Having choices will definitely make it harder to complain.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

And people wonder why there are so few female characters, as they are always put under a microscope and brew up shit storms like this. If women want better representation, then people need to stop these head hunts.

Honestly, I think you have it a bit backwards. The reason that the women are under such microscopes is because they're pretty much the only ones to look at.

If there were many female characters, there'd likely be more opinions, and that'd lead to less women being under the microscope.

I hadn't noticed much of a headhunt for most of the time videogames existed (80's, 90's, and early 2k), and the depiction of women in games has pretty much gotten trashier, and trashier. Leaving it alone isn't likely going to help get better representation. It's just going to come off as complacent and allow representation to largely stay where it is, or get worse.

The problem is, the veracity of the examination is can be very off putting, if not threatening. I've said for a while now that the reason we aren't getting a Wonder Woman movie stems largely from an image of feminists that would look at the thing as if they were looking for problems to bring up, and would call for the director's head if she looked the wrong way at steve trevor or something. Gaming isn't much different. We've seen Mass Effect's Miranda thrown under the bus because for everything she is, it seems to be invalidated entirely by her outfit: An outfit which is hardly a chainmail bikini. When it comes off as all or nothing, you get guys like in the interview trying to be diplomatic in how they say they really don't care about trying to please people that seem impossible to please.

On the other hand, not being hard, or being lenient on the depictions of women can lead to complacentcy in providing the standard fare. Shallowly written women who'll never have a love life, who's sole purpose in a game is to go from point A to point B. Better than nothing, sure, but that sort of purgatory will never do, IMO.
Getting female representation is going to be a passionate topic as is what representation we do get. There's not much of a way around it because people want more, and expect better. People are hard on the characters because they care, and there's so few attempts to placate which makes it easier to single women out. It's easy to find flaws because the good points aren't always terribly obvious on top of that.

Well, I can't argue a whole lot about your views on a Wonder Woman movie. She's grown and evolved along with women in America in general. She's an icon that's garnered a long, passionate following that's spanned generations.
And if the romance with Steve Trevor isn't handled right, there will be some problems, I agree. From what I've seen it's -really- easy to screw the relationship part up. It requires a balance of Wonder Woman not just ... going obsessive submissive, and her actually caring about the guy. I'm not going to say it's impossible, but it'd help to tread carefully.
But because she's a woman isn't the only reason she needs to be written carefully, it's as I said before, she's an icon. She's part of DC's holy trinity. If batman, and superman get crappy writing, the fans get up in arms, too. Then again, Batman, and Superman get movies pretty easily it seems. It's easier to forgive flaws when the next movie, or a lot of the previous movies make up for screwups of the current one. Wonder Woman just is -not- going to get that multi-movie treatment any time soon. Maybe if she did, the pressure to handle her proper wouldn't be so intense.

Still, Ms. Marvel is getting a movie IIRC. We'll have to wait and see how much they screw it up with taken liberties, but Marvel seems to be getting better at putting their characters in movies.

But now that I think about it, movies aren't terribly shy about making women the stars. Romantic Comedies, Chick flicks, Hunger Games, even the Resident Evil series of movies doesn't seem to get ire up. At least I haven't heard of many feminist outcries aganst the movie industry, and really, the industry has -Twilight- out there, nevermind countless damsels in distress. I'd say it's because of the simple fact that there's a balance of representation that's far nicer to women, and also because movies aimed at women aren't terribly rare. More opinions to go around, more middle ground between all, and nothing to stand on, and be happy with. That's what I want for videogames, pretty much, and the only way to get it is to actually have the middle ground exist, and lots of it, too.

To be fair, Miranda's infamy is not just her outfit, it's the camera angles, too. Her sexuality is -really- played up. So many awkward angles... so many...

Honestly, people are hard to please because there's not many opportunities to please offered. If someone does a halfass job for you, and gets paid for it, you complain. If they do it again, you complain. It's more on them to not half-ass it than you to stop complaining, IMO.

Looking at games, and looking at movies, the representation is extremely different.

 

[Redd the Sock]

On the other hand, not being hard, or being lenient on the depictions of women can lead to complacentcy in providing the standard fare. Shallowly written women who'll never have a love life, who's sole purpose in a game is to go from point A to point B. Better than nothing, sure, but that sort of purgatory will never do, IMO.
Getting female representation is going to be a passionate topic as is what representation we do get. There's not much of a way around it because people want more, and expect better. People are hard on the characters because they care, and there's so few attempts to placate which makes it easier to single women out. It's easy to find flaws because the good points aren't always terribly obvious on top of that.

In full honesty, I read comments like this and the "old man" part of my brain kicks in thinking that, no, the only thing you care about is yourself. You get a character that gets a lot of what you like, but focus so much on the few parts you don't because anything less than perfect isn't good enough. Calming down, I'm still perplexed. Why is all this passion about things people hate, not what they like? Why is it everyone else seemed to notice all these sexualized camera angles while I was more interested in Miranda's backstory and the development of her conflicted nature over what she nearly did to (me female) Sheppard? Hell, even Jack's god awful outfit didn't distract me from an interesting and tragic backstory I wish more time had been spent on.

I mean, I try to put myself in the developer's shoes and ask why I'd try to appeal to a market that, no matter how much I try to appeal to them, they'll forget all that and call me sexist if I show too much ass curvature in a scene. Passion's all well and good, but when it's all focused on the negative, you kind of send the message that developers may as well pander for the easy money, because the other side will be complaining no matter what they do. The gamer culture gets a lot of well deserved flack for saying an 8/10 game sucks, and I think the lesson there can be learned by feminists looking for good female game characters. You don't have to be complacent about things you don't like, but poor delviery can turn constructive criticism into the rantings of a spoiled child.

 

[Flutterguy]

Oh no a PR voicebox of a corporation fell for a trick question. All the energy wasted on PR bullshit could feed and clothe every human being on earth, but no people want their BS mellodrama.