Blizzard Dev Offers Apology for Response to Sexualization Question
- Thread starter Karloff
- Start date
ITT individual males are deciding what kind of avatars women in general need in order to be drawn to gaming.
In my experience, the girls I game with always like "Hyper Sexy" because it's fun to be sexy or "500 lb Hambeast Gorilla" for the irony (they're either really secure in their appearance or really insecure and it's a double bluff). When class is tied to appearance (a la TF2) then the decision is either purely aesthetic, or aesthetics are completely ignored. I then hear "What class is easiest to play?" because they don't wanna screw around figuring stuff out, "What class do we need?" because girls are like always team players every time, or "What class is the strongest?" because when girls aren't being team players they want to revel in unstoppable power.
I've never once heard a real life girl ask if she can be more modestly dressed. I feel like all these internet people are just asking because they know the answer is no and they like to act like children, but most of my experiences are liberal arts students from a faculty that is utterly bogged down with an obsession with gender theory, to the detriment of every other subject. I think the only reason I ever care if a girl can be modestly dressed is because I think that girls' asses look better in pants than shorts and skirts.
Also that RPS guy is a turd why would anyone even agree to an interview with him after all that crap.
Double also, the pandas in WoW look absolutely ridiculous because there are more polygons in their face than the entire rest of their body, wow.
In my experience, the girls I game with always like "Hyper Sexy" because it's fun to be sexy or "500 lb Hambeast Gorilla" for the irony (they're either really secure in their appearance or really insecure and it's a double bluff). When class is tied to appearance (a la TF2) then the decision is either purely aesthetic, or aesthetics are completely ignored. I then hear "What class is easiest to play?" because they don't wanna screw around figuring stuff out, "What class do we need?" because girls are like always team players every time, or "What class is the strongest?" because when girls aren't being team players they want to revel in unstoppable power.
I've never once heard a real life girl ask if she can be more modestly dressed. I feel like all these internet people are just asking because they know the answer is no and they like to act like children, but most of my experiences are liberal arts students from a faculty that is utterly bogged down with an obsession with gender theory, to the detriment of every other subject. I think the only reason I ever care if a girl can be modestly dressed is because I think that girls' asses look better in pants than shorts and skirts.
Also that RPS guy is a turd why would anyone even agree to an interview with him after all that crap.
Double also, the pandas in WoW look absolutely ridiculous because there are more polygons in their face than the entire rest of their body, wow.
Gaming is obsessed with sexualisation right now; it's absurd, but probably beneficial to the industry's recognition as an art form.
I agree with the dev. People just care too much.
I agree with the dev. People just care too much.
The answer to the interview question is basically what I would expect from a game developer. Perhaps there should be more to modeling a character than "does it look cool?", but that's irrelevant.
Interestingly, the reply stands in contrast to gender bias. Making a female look "cool" or appealing may invariably lead to sexualizing her, but if we're prepared to face that argument then for the love of blue skies get off the video game industry's throat; welcome to earth, real and fiction.
Interestingly, the reply stands in contrast to gender bias. Making a female look "cool" or appealing may invariably lead to sexualizing her, but if we're prepared to face that argument then for the love of blue skies get off the video game industry's throat; welcome to earth, real and fiction.
There's a difference between "asking the hard questions" and "desperately trying to stir up a shitstorm where it's not needed". I mean the dev is trying to sound as civilized/polite/harmless as possible, and here we have someone getting steadily more and more hysterical with every question he asks.dunam said:
Actually the last one wasn't even a question, it was turning into a monologue because the interviewer started DICTATING things to the dev. "Objectification, sexualization, empowerment!". At that rate the interview would've finally ended with the guy being dragged-off by security just as he started screaming incoherent random stuff about patriarchy and rape culture.
I'm glad PR cut-off the interview before it turned into a fucking feminism seminar, what a lunatic.
The dev was just trying to say they're designing completely fictional characters in a completely fictional universe with a somewhat comical touch, that they're not trying to give out any "messages" whatsoever relating to gender-politics (or any politics). Of course they will keep their character designs reasonable, they are Blizzard, not Team Ninja.
Plus, Team Ninja only do it because they are catering to a specific audience while being straight-up open about it.
I don't like how video games seem to be the new dumping ground for gender politics. Remand me again why TV and movies and other such mediums get a free pass while video games are demonized. Last time I checked Film and TV and music and even book covers still do the same thing.
Remember the great violent video games debate?
Or the racism in video games debate? (RE5 anyone?)
OR the great Mass effect3 ending debate?
Or the great pirating debate?
Where are they now? Oh right.. they where discussed to death and have become old news...
All those people applauding the game media for taking a "stand against sexism in video games" will soon realize that their issue will eventually become old news and be replaced by the next scandalous thing that generates alot of mouse clicks.
The game "journalism" is no ones friends but their own honestly, just like any other media in the good ol US of A their main interest is in making money, not so much to necesary tell the entire story or by being honest. And they WILL jump to the next topic and abandon this one if chance presents itselfe.
When that time eventually comes ill lean back and watch all the social warriors looking confused as to why the media isnt paying them that much attention anymore.
That asside lets get on topic:
This whole debate is incredible silly
Please show me the legions of female players that want to play mediocre looking player characters. Even the female chars who are applauded for being modest looking are by all means still very very attractive. And thats for a reason.
We dont go to the cinema to watch the likes of honey boo boo playing Arwen from lord of the rings. Nor do we place someone ugly as equally ugly for Loki or james bond now do we?
The reason why these chars are idealized is because secretly every human wants to be ideal, and what is seen as "ideal" in the media is what people aspire to, because that attracts the other gender. You know.. because we are a species of two sexual genders and not effing slugs?
Also most characters in games are very active, especialy in games that have alot of combat in them. So characters are athletic to say the least. If you look at people in sports around the world you will notice how many of those are very attractive (excluding such sports where face injuries are the norm.. boxing for example. But then again some find THAT especialy attractive).
Now when it comes to female armor design.. yes.. its completly stupid and totaly unpractical. THANKFULLY most of this nonsense armor in blizz games is relegated to the elf races... where i guess its kinda sorta excusable from a fashion standpoint when it comes to cloth armor? (tis not like linen or silk has much protective value anyways) But yeah chainmail bikinis are completly stupid, however "sexy" characters arent.
Or the racism in video games debate? (RE5 anyone?)
OR the great Mass effect3 ending debate?
Or the great pirating debate?
Where are they now? Oh right.. they where discussed to death and have become old news...
All those people applauding the game media for taking a "stand against sexism in video games" will soon realize that their issue will eventually become old news and be replaced by the next scandalous thing that generates alot of mouse clicks.
The game "journalism" is no ones friends but their own honestly, just like any other media in the good ol US of A their main interest is in making money, not so much to necesary tell the entire story or by being honest. And they WILL jump to the next topic and abandon this one if chance presents itselfe.
When that time eventually comes ill lean back and watch all the social warriors looking confused as to why the media isnt paying them that much attention anymore.
That asside lets get on topic:
This whole debate is incredible silly
Please show me the legions of female players that want to play mediocre looking player characters. Even the female chars who are applauded for being modest looking are by all means still very very attractive. And thats for a reason.
We dont go to the cinema to watch the likes of honey boo boo playing Arwen from lord of the rings. Nor do we place someone ugly as equally ugly for Loki or james bond now do we?
The reason why these chars are idealized is because secretly every human wants to be ideal, and what is seen as "ideal" in the media is what people aspire to, because that attracts the other gender. You know.. because we are a species of two sexual genders and not effing slugs?
Also most characters in games are very active, especialy in games that have alot of combat in them. So characters are athletic to say the least. If you look at people in sports around the world you will notice how many of those are very attractive (excluding such sports where face injuries are the norm.. boxing for example. But then again some find THAT especialy attractive).
Now when it comes to female armor design.. yes.. its completly stupid and totaly unpractical. THANKFULLY most of this nonsense armor in blizz games is relegated to the elf races... where i guess its kinda sorta excusable from a fashion standpoint when it comes to cloth armor? (tis not like linen or silk has much protective value anyways) But yeah chainmail bikinis are completly stupid, however "sexy" characters arent.
Film and TV get away with it because for every male-action-hero there is another chick-flick. For every novel about warrior knights there's another one romance. It's about variance.Corran006 said:
However what we're seeing in many videogames is perfectly explainable because unlike film/TV, gaming is still a very niche passtime enjoyed by a rather one-sided demographic (primarily males aged 13-30). Mind you I'm only talking about games that have a dedicated release (i.e. have a retail price, or come in a box)...not stuff like mobile/browser games which are spat out by the hundreds every week, gender is largely irrelevant in that category of games.
The audience/market, combined with the exploding costs of gaming causing devs/publishers to play it more "safe", is resulting in what we're seeing today in a lot of games.
I dont think this debate is going away anytime soon,unlike the debacles you mentioned that end shortly,this shit has been going on for almost two goddamn years.Gaming "Journalist" have found a topic to exploit for clicks and people still care to listen everytime(exKaradalis said:
ragons Crown Sorceress debate,Skullgirls Controversy,Tropes vs Women,etc).For the old man part, I can honestly say I care about more than myself. My SO has practically stopped gaming because of crappy representation of women. When gaming was something we did a lot together, it kinda sucks seeing that go away. I care about her enjoyment in gaming, but she feels worse about the industry than I do.Redd the Sock said:
I genuinely hope that if we get variety it will be a positive for others.
For the calmed down bit, It's not as simple as hate for what they like. It's that for the most part, the bad parts are far more numerous, and overwhelming due to a lack of positives to balance against them.
Maybe the sexual panderings in Mass Effect didn't ring as loud with you because you're not a hormonal teen? Maybe it's because fem-shep can't romance either one of them so less time's probably spent with them? The intended effect of the sexual camera angles, and clothes may have been lost on you, but does that mean you won't attempt to see the point people have about them?
But this kinda highlights a point. Why's a game from last year -still- our pinnacle of female representation so far? People still gush over Femshep. Yeah, the Mass Effect series is a great series, but guy aimed games generally have a "best game ever" every year.
Femshep is a gender select character, so where's the woman from her own game recently that's held up as a great character? We're still holding NPCs up in higher regard than women that get their own game. That's a really bad sign, IMO.
You're going to catch criticism either way, for leaving out women's rep entirely, or by including it. The only thing to do, IMO is to keep at female representation and try to not be one note about it so people can have multiple opinions about your work. Not including women is not going to fix anything. No single character pleases everyone, either, obviously.
If you're worried about the way the character's butt faces, maybe put that butt under baggy pants, or a skirt that doesn't highlight the butt?
What positives are we getting, here, anyhow? How many? What should we be positive about? Especially in the arena of women we play as from start to finish?
You are aware of hentai games, and porn games right? Those exist in great numbers, and with far better graphics, and there's more and more every day. I'll grant you that that's a console game, and hardly something a major game company would put a stamp of approval on these days. While console, I doubt that game, and others like it were mainstream, and sold in non-adult oriented stores.Flutterguy said:
Still, there's God of War which is pretty infamous for having topless women, and strongly implied sex. The only reason it happens off screen in minigames is I don't think Kratos is going to be depicted in softcore, and an AO rating would probably happen with the vigor he goes at it if it were shown.
GTA V has topless strippers, though for the life of me, I can't figure out why they're not topless online when there's a mansion that commonly has topless women every night online, and off. While they're clothed when it happens, you can boink women in cars.
That's a very short list of games with exposed boobs.
And these women look a lot better than the pixelated mess.
So, yeah, trashier. Scantily clad is far more common thanks to graphical improvements, and women there to be boinked is pretty common, though less brazenly. There are companies pushing the envelope on what can be shown, looking for that point where a game becomes AO so they can toe it.
Eurgh I hate commenting about things like this on the Escapist because I know there's just no way some of the people on here are ever going to change their mind or be willing to learn something. Anyway, I've played WoW for a few years and now I play LoL, I'm a gamer and a nerd.
Many people will say that video games, mmorpgs or mobas are targeted towards men rather than women so it's okay for them to pander towards men and marginalize women. No. 50% of gamers are women and a lot of the people I know on League and knew on WoW are/were women. And another thing, even if women made up 5% of the gaming community it's still no reason to ignore them in the development process. Maybe if more games didn't objectify women to absurd levels and actually wrote women well then more women would play games and it wouldn't be seen as such a boys' club.
I'm actually quite proud of the journalist that asked this question. Some people think it's asked a lot or too much but seeing as hardly anything's changed I think it needs to be asked more. Every single person that puts a woman in a game to be objectified needs to be asked this question. Now I'm going to clear a few things up.
Women can kick ass in games. Women kick ass in a lot of games. These women can still be objectified. Examples from League: Sejuani (who inexplicably wore a leather bikini despite living in arctic conditions), Janna (wears next to nothing in all her costumes), Morgana (has a baking skin).
Women can be attractive in games. Women are attractive in a lot of games. These women are not always objectified. Examples from League: Kayle, Quinn, Leona (although she does wear heels for some bizarre reason).
I hate, HATE , that some of my favourite characters in this game are objectified, or have skins that objectify them. It makes me feel like a 13 year old boy. Does anybody have an excuse they want to throw at me for this? Because it's reasons like this why gender politics needs to be discussed in games. The objectification of women in games is reflected in real-life because it comes from real-life ideas. It perpetuates the idea of women being there for men to look at and salivate over despite their personality.
Some people will say "But what about the men! Men's bodies are also depicted as unreasonably muscular etc.". Yeah that's true. However name one character that is muscular and it doesn't make sense in the context of the game. For example: Chris Redfield, hench as balls, yet it makes sense because his job requires him to be physically fit. Kratos looks like he was sculpted out of an adamantium-mithril alloy but it makes sense because he's a warrior-demigod.
Has there ever been a game you played where the way a male looked in it made you uncomfortable with your body? Besides, men can make themselves more muscular just by hitting the gym a few times a week, women, without extensive surgery, can never be anything like how they're represented in video games.
That's why it's a problem. Because it makes no sense that women's video game avatars should be A. not dressed appropriately for their tasks and B. have absurdly proportioned bodies. Frankly, when I play a game and a woman doesn't look like a woman it damages immersion.
So yes, this question needs to be asked more and more and more and more until I can like and identify with a female character that doesn't get objectified. Because that kind of shit is not only offensive and condescending to me and other adult gamers that don't want to be treated like horny teenagers but it's harmful to women in the real-world.
Finally, there are women in games that aren't objectified. Not all women in games are attractive. Not all men are objectified. Not all men are attractive. Some games have gender equality but it's not enough yet.
EDIT: Also, the people that are saying that gender equality is just another issue that will be discussed until everyone's bored of it and then swept under the rug are the kind of people that are comfortable with oppression as long as it isn't happening to them and I abhor you.
EDIT 2:
Many people will say that video games, mmorpgs or mobas are targeted towards men rather than women so it's okay for them to pander towards men and marginalize women. No. 50% of gamers are women and a lot of the people I know on League and knew on WoW are/were women. And another thing, even if women made up 5% of the gaming community it's still no reason to ignore them in the development process. Maybe if more games didn't objectify women to absurd levels and actually wrote women well then more women would play games and it wouldn't be seen as such a boys' club.
I'm actually quite proud of the journalist that asked this question. Some people think it's asked a lot or too much but seeing as hardly anything's changed I think it needs to be asked more. Every single person that puts a woman in a game to be objectified needs to be asked this question. Now I'm going to clear a few things up.
Women can kick ass in games. Women kick ass in a lot of games. These women can still be objectified. Examples from League: Sejuani (who inexplicably wore a leather bikini despite living in arctic conditions), Janna (wears next to nothing in all her costumes), Morgana (has a baking skin).
Women can be attractive in games. Women are attractive in a lot of games. These women are not always objectified. Examples from League: Kayle, Quinn, Leona (although she does wear heels for some bizarre reason).
I hate, HATE , that some of my favourite characters in this game are objectified, or have skins that objectify them. It makes me feel like a 13 year old boy. Does anybody have an excuse they want to throw at me for this? Because it's reasons like this why gender politics needs to be discussed in games. The objectification of women in games is reflected in real-life because it comes from real-life ideas. It perpetuates the idea of women being there for men to look at and salivate over despite their personality.
Some people will say "But what about the men! Men's bodies are also depicted as unreasonably muscular etc.". Yeah that's true. However name one character that is muscular and it doesn't make sense in the context of the game. For example: Chris Redfield, hench as balls, yet it makes sense because his job requires him to be physically fit. Kratos looks like he was sculpted out of an adamantium-mithril alloy but it makes sense because he's a warrior-demigod.
Has there ever been a game you played where the way a male looked in it made you uncomfortable with your body? Besides, men can make themselves more muscular just by hitting the gym a few times a week, women, without extensive surgery, can never be anything like how they're represented in video games.
That's why it's a problem. Because it makes no sense that women's video game avatars should be A. not dressed appropriately for their tasks and B. have absurdly proportioned bodies. Frankly, when I play a game and a woman doesn't look like a woman it damages immersion.
So yes, this question needs to be asked more and more and more and more until I can like and identify with a female character that doesn't get objectified. Because that kind of shit is not only offensive and condescending to me and other adult gamers that don't want to be treated like horny teenagers but it's harmful to women in the real-world.
Finally, there are women in games that aren't objectified. Not all women in games are attractive. Not all men are objectified. Not all men are attractive. Some games have gender equality but it's not enough yet.
EDIT: Also, the people that are saying that gender equality is just another issue that will be discussed until everyone's bored of it and then swept under the rug are the kind of people that are comfortable with oppression as long as it isn't happening to them and I abhor you.
EDIT 2:
Movies/Tv do not get away with it and neither do books. You probably just don't hear about it as much because it doesn't invade your bubble (not meant offensively). But yeah, remember the whole thing about Carol Marcus stripping in Star Trek into Darkness? Or the Bechdel test? Or *lists a thousand other examples*?Corran006 said:
Actually we are getting tons of games with non sexualized female characters who are playable,mopre than there ever has been, you simply have to look some would be.Rebel_Raven said:
Within the last two years
Trails in the Sky
Remember Me
Tomb Raider(2013)
Puella Magi Madoka Magica: The Battle Pentagram
The Walking Dead: Season Two
Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII(well in certain costume it can be a little sexed up)
Beyond: Two Souls
Gone Home
Assassin's Creed Liberation
Dreamfall Chapters
Thomas was Alone
Portal 1&2
Lili(ios game)
Atelier Ayesha: The Alchemist of Dusk
Puella Magi Madoka Magica Portable
Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep
Gravity Rush
Mrs Splosion Man
etc...
And thats just a sample.
I'd like to point out that you're going well over 2 years in listing games from 2011, and games that aren't out yet to say the least.at007 said:
I do admit this year was better than most, however. Still, how long will this last?
How well known are these games, or how well known will they be? What will the quality of the games be? I don't mean to split hairs, but a game is hard pressed to be successful if no one knows it's out there, and if it can't stand on it's own regardless of the protagonist, it will fail.
I'm still wary of the industry's treatment of female characters.
P.S. Thanks for pointing out Dreamfall Chapters. That's one I hadn't heard of.
The Industry's way of dealing with females is bullshit,as it is possible for a game with a female protaganist to be succesful(Portal,Tomb Raider).Its a slow process,in the 80s and 90s I honestly could not remember to many games that starred female protaganist or appealed to females,(with exception of a few niche RPGs),however in the 2000s weve seen an growth in female participation in a male dominated hobby,its true not all the games I mentioned are Call of Duty levels of mainstream but its a growing process,weve been reaching new depths with storytelling this generation,we will just have to see how devs handle female characters in the current gen(PS4,Xbox One.)Rebel_Raven said:
Honestly, I think Mass effect comes up so much because it's something that you can be reasonably sure people have played, or at least know about. You get more people knowing what you're talking about than if you bring up, say, the women in Persona 4, Disgaea, Etrian Odyssey, or most of the RPGs I play.Rebel_Raven said:
The thing about positivity, I was taught to see the whole of a character, while I see others that seem to judge them only by their appearance (both outfits and overall sexualization). I've said it since the Playstation days: everything Lara Croft could be for women (star character, athletic, non-damsel, confident badass) dissolved under the DDs. It can come off as an "all or nothing" standard that, yes, I can see developers and publishers thinking it isn't worth their time to try and appeal to. I'm not in gaming, but I've seen my own boss happily let angry customers walk out never to return because the grief they game him wasn't worth it.
At this point, I think the gender talk is so prominent that do developer or publisher can be totally ignorant of it, al while I understand a desire to find a self serving reason they aren't jumping to appeal to women, I've been in business long enough to at least entertain the idea that they have a legitimate reason. Even ignoring sales demographic issues when stuff like Remember Me flops, if all a company hears is a string of insults over sexism oven one part of a character, when every other element they put in to try and please you goes unthanked and unacknowledged (or even unknown because people can't see beyond the AAA), well, just be 100% honest: how receptive would you be to someone that only brought up your faults, and never thanked your efforts?
I'd like to point out that these movies are almost universally given a smaller budget. If you ignore the midbudget movies, they're actually very comparable in terms of female representation and protagonists. If you use that comparison as a start, you can make a pretty strong argument that the continued lack of female protagonists in games is largely due to the near absence of midbudget titles.Rebel_Raven said:
I don't understand what the big deal is. every developer is not under moral obligation to subvert design tropes. It is somewhat odd that in WoW the male orcs, trolls and undead are all hunced, twisted monstrosities, but the girls are all basically discolored humans with bad dentistry, but it doesn't amount to much more than a preference, clearly the preference of somebody who's attracted to women (Surprise, surprise), but it's not dishonest or malicious.
Hell, I'd say MMO's are comparatively progressive on the subject, because no matter how you look or what gender you pick the game treats you the same way. WoW doesn't seem to have any opinion on gender other than that it thinks girls are pretty; it's not helpful but I don't think it's really the core of the problem either.
Hell, I'd say MMO's are comparatively progressive on the subject, because no matter how you look or what gender you pick the game treats you the same way. WoW doesn't seem to have any opinion on gender other than that it thinks girls are pretty; it's not helpful but I don't think it's really the core of the problem either.