Blizzard Dev Offers Apology for Response to Sexualization Question

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

"Women are beings of Desire."
No, women are women.

Your statement is objectifying women sexually. In am attempt to disprove sexism, sexually objectifying women is not the best way to go about it. Even when a woman wants to be sexy, does not give others reign to sexually objectify her. Of course freedom of thought and speech prevail. That woman does not have control over those things, she does not have that afforded reign either. If you speak to her as if she is a sexual object, expect to be labeled a sexist. It really can not be any more clear than that.

This sexual objectifying is what the big deal is about, not sexy outfits. What the journalist is asking the developer, is if the art direction in the game is sexually objectifying. The problem being that with an overwhelming amount of sexist games(yeah, sexists-sexually objectifying games), the attitude of people thinking that saying that for thousands of years women have been sexually objectified is the very reason it is not sexist.

I am a man, and I will play some of the most objectifying games out there. I recognize this. Which does not really make it better. I am not trying to pretend that this is a non-issue. If you want to develop a sexually objectified character, own up to.

 

[Callate]

snip

That's at the least a thoughtful answer. Thank you. I want to give it some more consideration before I make a reply, but I appreciate that you provided it.

 

[Ryebread]

And are you really complaining that fictive characters can't decide what they wear by themselves? Seriously?

When someone's pretending that real life women who choose how they dress are related to fictional women who are designed as fanservice, yes I am.

Also, you asked how female characters in sexy clothes would do conquering planets, lead a war against zombies or act as spec ops in combat zones. And I gave you just the answer: pretty good, actually.

I asked how "these women you see in short skirts and bared midriffs" (ie, the ones you see walking around) in sexy clothes would do conquering planets and fighting zombies, not female characters. Another misunderstanding?

For the record, I don't use the forums often, mostly because of high-emotion threads like these. But could I make suggestions on how to direct your current arguments?

1) ***Less focus on MMO player-character dress-styles***
Whatever game devs may offer in terms of armor designs, their design choices and the intentions behind them can be obscured by the player's intentions. For example, the hardcore player may go out of his way to dress a dancing bard in fuller clothing/armor to appear more serious, while a lecherous player might have a hardened tanking paladin undressed all the time.

2) ***More focus on high-profile female characters used in promotional materials***
Instead, I would recommend focusing on the representation of their starring female characters, while remembering what point in time said representations occurred. An obvious example would be the Heroes of the storm trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0ecv0bT9DEo

I would also suggest avoiding in-game lore explanations (i.e. futuristic technology/arcane magicks nullify the need for bulky armor). Instead, it might be more illuminating to focus on why developers greenlit certain character designs for public viewing. Was she dressed like this to appeal to the drooling masses? Was she dressed like this to appeal to the social warrior club?

********************

I also remember someone mentioning League of Legend heroes. I've played both that and DOTA2, so I can make a few comparisons.

First, two snake-themed characters: Cassiopeia and Medusa.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/cassiopeia/
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/File:Medusa_splash.jpg

While Cassiopeia is roughly 50% snake and 50% bikini-woman, Medusa's design is much scalier and has a larger focus on intimidation.

Then, there are the sultry redhead characters: Ms Fortune and Lina.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/missfortune/
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/File:Crystal_Maiden_Lina_Steam_Profile_Background.png

They both are obviously sultry in dress and tone, and both expose significant skin as well. However, and this may be a personal bias of mine, Ms Fortune is trivialized by exaggerated sexiness (excessive use of heart symbols, wears sexy-stereotype high-heels) while Lina maintains a certain class by being represented as a skilled magician, allowing her to dress light (she floats barefooted).

DOTA2 has a reputation of putting thought into the design of its heroes, while LoL (no offence) is aiming for a comparatively casual crowd. The same crowd Heroes of the Storm appears to be aiming for, if I may add. LoL is criticized for having a majority of its human female champions designed to entice young male players with cleavage and butts:
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/katarina/
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/leblanc/
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/zyra/
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/syndra/

BUT not all of LoL's human female champs are like this. Sejuani was recently redesigned from a metal bikini to being better fur and armor to complement her character as a front-line northern warrior:
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/sejuani/

********************

Finally, I'd like to remind everyone to refrain from ad hominems and overtly positive/negative adjectives, as those only distract from the main argument. Also, I'd like to reiterate a statement I've already seen a few times in this thread.

*Sexuality* itself is not being argued against, nor anyone arguing that it be completely removed from games.

It is the *over-reliance* on overt sexuality that is the topic of the main argument. Thank you and good night.

 

[Sofus]

What is going on?!

What's wrong with saying "we're just making characters who look cool". There is nothing sexist, racist or offensive about wanting to design things so that people want to collect, use or display it. Do people honestly expect Blizzard to say crap such as "we don't care what the players might want... here at Blizzard we aim for bland, boring and unimaginative character design."

I am so sick and tired of all this garbage about everyone having to be politically correct all the damn time. "Buhu.. I was almost slightly offended by that comment someone call the police, the president and seven major news networks".

 

[Ryebread]

I find it bizarre that there's always someone who brings up burkhas in these discussions. As if there aren't any other options between chainmail bikinis and burkhas. Or when people argue that "dressing sexy" is the standard that pretty much every western woman follows nowadays. I mean, I get that not a lot of people are interested in fashion or clothes but isn't it kinda obvious that there is variation in modern fashion and style and that the goal isn't always to look as sexy as possible?

Spoiler

I don't think it's surprising that people (men and women) would want to see some of that diversity also in video games.

THANK you for pointing that out. Everytime, I see someone trotting out the "Bikinis or Burkhas" false dichotomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[Clive_Paddington]

How many of you people here are actually female? I'm genuinely curious. Because from the way most of you guys are talking, it sounds like you aren't.

If all of you guys are male, do you realize how misogynistic this discussion sounds? It does from my viewpoint at least. Many of you people are talking about women as if they are things that need to be protected from the evil sexist video games, and they all obviously hate how video games display them. It seriously sounds like you're telling anyone remotely female how to feel about the situation. I'd seriously like to hear some female opinions, from both sides. Too many people are sounding like white knights.

In my opinion, I'm surprised so many people care, I've never heard of an incident where a girl has been mistreated because of the way that women are portrayed in video games. Yeah, lots of guys are complete fuckwits who insult females to boost their egos, but that happens because the guys are twats, not because a video game told them too. I agree with Callate, if violence in video games doesn't have an effect on us, why should over-sexualized women affect us? I don't think anyone who doesn't have their head down a toilet would ever base their views on women on what they have learned from a video game.

Although, I would like to ask, what do people get so offended by? Why is it so much of a problem? I'm pretty curious to know what you guys say.

 

[Candidus]

Ugh not this debate again the poor guy, its the individual design that got the green light by the producer and people go "zomgz bewbs hotness why you no sexualisation equalisez blahah blah"

It seems like nowadays every single time there a good looking women as a heroine that people get overly aggressive and offended.

Bottom line if you don't like the design don't play the game

I am 100% with the dev. The entire gaming industry has taken this whole sexualisation issue to absurd lengths. Frankly, it's embarrassing.

100% this.

"zomg-bewbs-hotness-why-you-no-sexualization-equalisez-blahah-blah."

I'm doing my best to memorize and master the fast delivery of this line in order to belittle the arrival of gender politickers to topics I have no interest in seeing shitted up by them in the future.

On topic.

I like the Heroes of the Storm's female characters better the way that they are; flirtatious and scantily clad. I'm apathetic at best to the movement that opposes this*. So naturally I roll eyes at incidents like this.

Spoiler

* "That's because you've already got what you want from the male representations."

Answer - No, it isn't. Because I don't want anything from male representations and don't care what sort of shape they're in industry-wide! I never, ever play a male character when there's a female alternative. Never. Not once. And when I have no choice but to play a male character, I couldn't be less interested in his particulars; his motives, personality or physique. All irrelevant to me.

Sexy female character present in a game? Good, and it might as well be the only one, because it's the only one I'll play. Of course I don't want to see them squeezed down to a niche.

The most I can do is concede that a niche is where such characters belong if we're going to stop excluding- or at least making uncomfortable- 50% of all gamers. That concession though, should not be mistaken for support.

It's too dangerous to lend support to a movement of hysterical people who attack the trend even in the niche where it obviously belongs. Dragon's Crown is the latest example. Vanillaware (alongside Team Ninja) is practically the embodiment of the appropriate niche, so yes, of course they released yet another game that sexualizes its female options. Why the incredulity? Calm your nuts. Know where to stop.

 

[weirdee]

y'ever notice how women never show up to these conversations to say the same arguments that guys are presenting about them? cause statistically, if these things were true, and women were human and were all like "nah I really do like being marginalized as an object of sexual lust" and thought they were being misrepresented by activists, you'd think you would hear about that more often

conversely, have you noticed that whenever a woman DOES show up and says anything to the contrary, a bunch of guys shout her down, call her names, question her mental ability, and explain to her in a low to high range of patronizing tones about how she's wrong about her own feelings cause apparently she's too dumb to know better, the poor dear? god forbid she perpetuates lies! that would be horrible. soon we'd have entire groups roaming around the internet, spreading around hate and misinformation in order to take complete control of the conversation to hush up dissent, and soon nobody would be able to do anything about it without being labeled horrible things and ignored entirely

thank god that hasn't happened yet

 

[Rebel_Raven]

All things considered, I'm not terribly surprised the topic came up.
One can be cynical all one wants over the motives, but the way I see it, there's a problem with female representation in videogames as a whole. If one is not working to remedy the problem, then that one is going to become part of the problem.

Making some smexy supermodel with clothes that leave little to the imagination? Congradulations, you're contributing to the problem of the oversaturation of sexualized women.

Not going to make a female playable character? People are gunna give you heat over it coz you're not helping make women look any better in the world of videogames.

Sometimes criticism exists for a reason. Especially when it comes to women's rep in games these days. If you wanna ignore it, do so at your own peril. If you feed the criticisms, be prepared to get called on it.

'm not saying this is right or wrong. Not saying anyone's obligated to do anything here, 'm just saying it how I see it.

edit: Yay, lucky 777. >.>

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

Object of sexual lust, and focus of sexual lust are not the same thing.

 

[Vigormortis]

Yep, that's not a question, that's an indictment. Fuck RPS and the horse they rode in on. This is exactly the wrong way to go about getting the idea of gender equality taken seriously. Such a social change requires a dialogue from both sides where mutual understanding can be reached. You will get nothing from this aggressive "have you stopped beating your wife" malarkey.

But don't you see? That solves nothing! Clearly, when asked that question, if you respond with, "But I don't beat my wife", you are simply lying to yourself and actively ignoring the real issues! You're just pleading ignorance so you can perpetuate social injustices!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I shit you not, I had someone say something similar to me recently. On this very topic, in fact. Or, well, on the topic of sexism; within and without gaming. All because I claimed that, while I know, and have known for some time, that there are serious gender[footnote]And not just female.[/footnote] issues that need addressed today, I do NOT approve of Sarkeesian's overly polarizing attitude nor her methodology of "research".

Because clearly, as I am a 30-year old white male, the only way I could possibly support gender equality is if I were to become a self-hating, submissive, and apologetic 30-year old white male who thought that every man on earth is, at best, a misogynist in waiting.

Well nothing except mistrust, paranoia, anger, and further disconnect from actually getting people to listen to you.

Psh. You know as well as I do that anyone who doesn't avidly support "journalism" like that of the RPS article above is clearly just a misogynistic pig who hates women.

Sad thing is: I foresee this whole issue only getting worse with nary a solution in sight. Not because the industry isn't trying but because of the polarizing sensationalism that's built up around the issue.

Articles like this really are doing a disservice to the movement towards gender equality. And, that alone, really pisses me off.

You know it would serve these sensationalist twonks right if these companies decided to avoid this issue by just not including female characters at all.

A novel idea. I like it! In fact, let's yank male characters from games as well. Let's insist all devs craft player avatars and NPCs that look like this from now on -

Boom. Problem solved for all.

 

[Vigormortis]

I find it bizarre that there's always someone who brings up burkhas in these discussions. As if there aren't any other options between chainmail bikinis and burkhas. Or when people argue that "dressing sexy" is the standard that pretty much every western woman follows nowadays. I mean, I get that not a lot of people are interested in fashion or clothes but isn't it kinda obvious that there is variation in modern fashion and style and that the goal isn't always to look as sexy as possible?

Spoiler

I don't think it's surprising that people (men and women) would want to see some of that diversity also in video games.

My thoughts exactly. In fact, I'd like to see a similar tack taken into account when doing male character designs as well.

I get that most game character designs are based around flights of fantasy. Built around unrealism and whimsy, to some degree or another. However, that shouldn't limit the design guidelines used for female and male character designs.

If anything, perhaps these fictional character designs should take notes from real "character" designs.

 

[omega 616]

Ugh not this debate again the poor guy, its the individual design that got the green light by the producer and people go "zomgz bewbs hotness why you no sexualisation equalisez blahah blah"

It seems like nowadays every single time there a good looking women as a heroine that people get overly aggressive and offended.

Bottom line if you don't like the design don't play the game

I hate this line of argument, "if you don't like the character design don't play the game" ... what about if I love the whole game and the only thing that annoys me is this one character design? Well, I am going to play the game 'cos I love it but that 1 thing taints my experience.

It's not about a good looking woman as a heroine, it's the fact that females "armor" designs are 90% of the time thin fabric/metal that covers the nipples and crotch and/or they are the proportions of a barbie doll, such as Dragons Crown.

 

[Deadcyde]

I do love the ultimate futility of these arguments. Because it comes down to this.

Games may be art or cheap (or expensive) entertainment but in the end they are fantasy. And so people will inevitably head towards the fantasy they most enjoy. For the majority of gamers being pubescent teen boys or men engaging in what they clearly understand is fantasy and so what will they want in women? Unrealistically sexualized females. Why? Because society trains them to be misogynistic bastards? No.. Because it's fantasy. In my fantasies I don't want to have to put up with plain women and endeavor to have fulfilling relationships with them in which i find out about their inner character. I have real life for that. I want fantasy, in which relationships are disposable and fun I don't have to overly work for them; simply because I don't have time for more, I have a life.

So that's why. If you don't like it, create your own games, sell them to like minded people and enjoy yourself. Stop thinking that fantastic characters are some how the (mis)representation of real people (hint: they aren't real) and stop trying to change something that if you were actually a fan of more then arguing for the sake of it, you would realize that it's not worth the time to argue about because distributors will sell to those willing to buy and a game should be more then character design, if character design is all you had to ***** about was the game really that bad? As a gamer, i care more about the game then how realistic the characters are represented. It's not that critical.

And as for those that think the way fantastic characters are treated is the way to treat real people have bigger problems then just sexism, and they certainly aren't the norm.

Oh and implying that we can't tell the difference between real and fantasy makes you an ass.

(edit: for clarity sake, my gf is not plain, she is hot. I lucked out. High five me.)

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Wow... RPS just smashed head long into the fail button with that one. Also, RPS wants to discuss gender politics in reference to titles that are primarily geared towards a male demographic? It's like a guy complaining about the color of the deodorant bars in the womens section of Target or vice versa.

It gets better. Have you read the response article where Greyson whines about the entire event while crying?

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/

Quick! Someone hold him down! I need to taste his tears of infinite sadness while they're still dewy and fresh!

 

[Deadcyde]

Wow... RPS just smashed head long into the fail button with that one. Also, RPS wants to discuss gender politics in reference to titles that are primarily geared towards a male demographic? It's like a guy complaining about the color of the deodorant bars in the womens section of Target or vice versa.

It gets better. Have you read the response article where Greyson whines about the entire event while crying?

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/

Quick! Someone hold him down! I need to taste his tears of infinite sadness while they're still dewy and fresh!

stop that, you're being far too silly.

Also I already used them as a beverage for my big wah and french cries "unhappy meal"

It bothers me that the vocal minority is either whiny self entitled asses like Greyson or nihilistic neckbeards who make hi sound like he's right in their desire for cheap U MAD BRO! lols.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I hate this line of argument, "if you don't like the character design don't play the game" ... what about if I love the whole game and the only thing that annoys me is this one character design? Well, I am going to play the game 'cos I love it but that 1 thing taints my experience.

Then deal with it. People found Navi annoying in Ocarina of Time, didn't stop it from being a loved game. When Banjo-Tooie came out, people were disappointed that all the things that were hyped from the secrets of the first game didn't come to fruition, didn't stop it from being a great game.

The main problem with what you just said is this part, "Well, I am going to play the game 'cos I love it", because if you're going to say that you love it, even in spite of this thing you don't like (And one of the most superficial elements to a game, what the clothes you're wearing look like) then obviously this isn't an important enough issue for you or else you'd refuse to buy it. It's like eating an entire cake all while saying how bad it is for you and how you'll gain a ton of weight for it all while continuing to stuff your face.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Wow... RPS just smashed head long into the fail button with that one. Also, RPS wants to discuss gender politics in reference to titles that are primarily geared towards a male demographic? It's like a guy complaining about the color of the deodorant bars in the womens section of Target or vice versa.

It gets better. Have you read the response article where Greyson whines about the entire event while crying?

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/re-that-heroes-of-the-storm-interview/

Quick! Someone hold him down! I need to taste his tears of infinite sadness while they're still dewy and fresh!

stop that, you're being far too silly.

Also I already used them as a beverage for my big wah and french cries "unhappy meal"

It bothers me that the vocal minority is either whiny self entitled asses like Greyson or nihilistic neckbeards who make them sound like they are right in their desire for cheap U MAD BRO! lols.

The only way I know how to respond to cheap, blatant emotional manipulation is to proverbially come out out of the corner swinging both fists hard as I can. Do you know who else responds with tears when the grown-ups tell them that they cannot get their own way? Children do. Mr. Grayson is sharing with us that he is acting like a child, and it is behaviour that is unbecoming of any grown adult.

I really can't wait till every game installs an adjustable clothing sliders. That way the prudes and killjoys can go off and play iAmish, raising virtual barns and churning milk into butter, while the rest of us get dress our virtual avatars up pimp as fuck while we're busy escaping the from the mundane realities of everyday life.

 

[Dragonbums]

y'ever notice how women never show up to these conversations to say the same arguments that guys are presenting about them? cause statistically, if these things were true, and women were human and were all like "nah I really do like being marginalized as an object of sexual lust" and thought they were being misrepresented by activists, you'd think you would hear about that more often

conversely, have you noticed that whenever a woman DOES show up and says anything to the contrary, a bunch of guys shout her down, call her names, question her mental ability, and explain to her in a low to high range of patronizing tones about how she's wrong about her own feelings cause apparently she's too dumb to know better, the poor dear? god forbid she perpetuates lies! that would be horrible. soon we'd have entire groups roaming around the internet, spreading around hate and misinformation in order to take complete control of the conversation to hush up dissent, and soon nobody would be able to do anything about it without being labeled horrible things and ignored entirely

thank god that hasn't happened yet

Actually we do show up. All the time.

You want to know what happens half the time when I input my opinion about something that relates to my sex?

I'm either told that that's just my objective opinion and it doesn't have any weight to how most women act, I'm slammed with "fact checking" women like "social games" and other inane studies about what women like to do, or I'm told that I'm just being a feminazi with my panties in a twist and maybe I need to sit down somewhere and stop ruining videogames.

I've spent enough pages arguing back and forth in these arguments to realize that these arguments are completely surface deep.

Women aren't allowed to claim that not all of us like Princesses all that much without being called a subjective opinion. But the dudes here are allowed to make sweeping claims like women only like simulation games because my girlfriend/wife (ie, probably the 4 women most of them have ever really gotten to know in their entire lives) likes to play them all the time.

They don't ACTUALLY want to know what women's opinion are in this matter. They just want to talk about what they think they know what women want in this conversation. Half the time any women inputting anything will just get brushed under the bus or told to chill out.

 

[Clive_Paddington]

Actually we do show up. All the time.

You want to know what happens half the time when I input my opinion about something that relates to my sex?

I'm either told that that's just my objective opinion and it doesn't have any weight to how most women act, I'm slammed with "fact checking" women like "social games" and other inane studies about what women like to do, or I'm told that I'm just being a feminazi with my panties in a twist and maybe I need to sit down somewhere and stop ruining videogames.

I've spent enough pages arguing back and forth in these arguments to realize that these arguments are completely surface deep.

Women aren't allowed to claim that not all of us like Princesses all that much without being called a subjective opinion. But the dudes here are allowed to make sweeping claims like women only like simulation games because my girlfriend/wife (ie, probably the 4 women most of them have ever really gotten to know in their entire lives) likes to play them all the time.

They don't ACTUALLY want to know what women's opinion are in this matter. They just want to talk about what they think they know what women want in this conversation. Half the time any women inputting anything will just get brushed under the bus or told to chill out.

Then, may I ask you what your opinion is?

Gosh, I sound like a fucking white knight, but it would be interesting to know.