Blizzard Dev Offers Apology for Response to Sexualization Question

[wulf3n]

You think the gray and brown military shooters are trying to get the most varied audience? Eh...
Biggest audience of the same type perhaps, but most varied, I don't know about that.

I didn't say varied, just biggest. I would argue that a game that has 1 million fans of a single demographic is more inclusive than a game that has only 100 thousand fans of all demographics.

Either way.
People who aren't straight guy gamers have kinda been ignored in the past and now have become past it. They're not gonna stop asking for representation because it might piss some people off.
It'll be interesting to see, at least, what the future holds.

I don't think it's asking for representation that pisses people off, it's the accusations of injustice levied at those who don't want to cater to all demographics that pisses people off.

 

[Colt47]

Personally I think it's the only way to go. It's the desire to make games as inclusive as possible that has in the past hindered the developers that actually want to make decently portrayed female characters, as the most "inclusive"[read: has the biggest audience] games out there are gritty gray/brown modern military shooters.

You think the gray and brown military shooters are trying to get the most varied audience? Eh...
Biggest audience of the same type perhaps, but most varied, I don't know about that.

Either way.
People who aren't straight guy gamers have kinda been ignored in the past and now have become past it. They're not gonna stop asking for representation because it might piss some people off.
It'll be interesting to see, at least, what the future holds.

Gods help the military shooter fans if they ever have to deal with something more complex than a crosshair. People seem to forget that adventure puzzlers still exist (Good old point and click.)

 

[Phasmal]

I don't think it's asking for representation that pisses people off, it's the accusations of injustice levied at those who don't want to cater to all demographics that pisses people off.

I think it'll even out in time, when things get a bit better. But I'm afraid you generally don't get anything without making some noise.
I mean, if you'd spent your whole life gaming and then constantly got told you didn't matter or didn't even exist, you'd probably be a bit fed up by this point.
But I don't think this situation is bad at all, I think it's fairly good. People do need to be aware more of these issues, which may be annoying for individuals who make PR-slip ups, but I'm sure we can all be adult about it. (Haha)

 

[Callate]

I may get flak for this, but maybe someone will have a straight answer that isn't either an insult aimed at me or at the people who will be tempted to insult the basic statement.

Why is it that that it's an accepted article of faith that playing violent games- sometimes very violent games, sometimes intensely violent games, sometimes games that are essentially nothing but ongoing, persistant violence- does not perpetuate real-world violence in its players; but it's seemingly accepted as a given by many of the same people that sexualized female characters (or over-sexualized female characters, or characters that are turned into "sex objects", or characters meant to "attract the male gaze", depending on how you want to define, border, and describe the phenomenon)- humiliates and demeans women and almost single-handedly turns male gamers into a community with a "hostile atmosphere"?

On the male side, that seems incredibly unlikely- a million maimings doesn't make a dent in the male psyche, but a sea of elves in bikini armor turns them into barbarians. On the female side, on closer examination, that seems like a downright perverse point for an alleged feminist to push- that women are so fragile that all it takes to crush their spirit is an avatar that isn't as fully visually "empowered" as the male counterpart, irrespective of that avatar's actual abilities within the game.

Now before that flak comes in, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good idea for there to be a greater spectrum of how female heroines are presented visually, nor that there isn't some merit in the idea that visual presentation sometimes becomes the totality of a sexualized female character's identity, particularly when female characters are scarce. I'm absolutely in favor of more well-realized and identifiable female characters in games. But this particular argument seems to hearken awfully close to one of those "won't someone think about the children" emotional exclamations- and in particular, one where no one has actually bothered to see if the children are actually coming to harm, but only insisted that it was "common sense" that such a cause-and-effect relationship must exist, and anyone who thinks otherwise had better watch themselves lest they be branded a monster.

 

[RaikuFA]

I am 100% with the dev. The entire gaming industry has taken this whole sexualisation issue to absurd lengths. Frankly, it's embarrassing.

While I agree that his response wasn't really bad at all, I disagree completely with the rest of your sentiment. I'm not sure how anyone can say it's embarrassing for the industry and fans to take a look at, and have a discussion about sexism in games, gender roles, and the sexualization of characters. It's a topic the industry needs to be talking about, and it absolutely has not been taken to absurd lengths.

But it has gotton to ridiculous lenghs. People will ***** about any game with a female character saying it's sexist. Yes there are issues in the industry but crying sexism at every little thing drowns out the actual issues.

 

[wulf3n]

I think it'll even out in time, when things get a bit better. But I'm afraid you generally don't get anything without making some noise.
I mean, if you'd spent your whole life gaming and then constantly got told you didn't matter or didn't even exist, you'd probably be a bit fed up by this point.

I think it'll get better as well, I just think it will occur externally from all of this.

But I don't think this situation is bad at all, I think it's fairly good. People do need to be aware more of these issues, which may be annoying for individuals who make PR-slip ups,

Personally I think it's situations like this that make an already tense issue worse.

but I'm sure we can all be adult about it. (Haha)

 

[Uhura]

I find it bizarre that there's always someone who brings up burkhas in these discussions. As if there aren't any other options between chainmail bikinis and burkhas. Or when people argue that "dressing sexy" is the standard that pretty much every western woman follows nowadays. I mean, I get that not a lot of people are interested in fashion or clothes but isn't it kinda obvious that there is variation in modern fashion and style and that the goal isn't always to look as sexy as possible?

Spoiler

I don't think it's surprising that people (men and women) would want to see some of that diversity also in video games.

 

[llubtoille]

I know how to deal with this! have all female game characters from now on all wear burqas exclusively that way no one will be offended by them being underdressed. After all there were complaints of Lara Croft being underdressed on some sites so better safe than sorry.

The important thing is to make sure that all the female characters are handled in the same way depending on what you think about women. Either they are defined by being sexual, or they are defined by being a temptation to men. Try to avoid having your female characters have various interesting traits. That's definitely what RPS was asking for.

Or, maybe you're not understanding the issue at all.

Hmm, perhaps make game character androgynous so no one will know if they should be offended by it =D

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I may get flak for this, but maybe someone will have a straight answer that isn't either an insult aimed at me or at the people who will be tempted to insult the basic statement.

Why is it that that it's an accepted article of faith that playing violent games- sometimes very violent games, sometimes intensely violent games, sometimes games that are essentially nothing but ongoing, persistant violence- does not perpetuate real-world violence in its players; but it's seemingly accepted as a given by many of the same people that sexualized female characters (or over-sexualized female characters, or characters that are turned into "sex objects", or characters meant to "attract the male gaze", depending on how you want to define, border, and describe the phenomenon)- humiliates and demeans women and almost single-handedly turns male gamers into a community with a "hostile atmosphere"?

On the male side, that seems incredibly unlikely- a million maimings doesn't make a dent in the male psyche, but a sea of elves in bikini armor turns them into barbarians. On the female side, on closer examination, that seems like a downright perverse point for an alleged feminist to push- that women are so fragile that all it takes to crush their spirit is an avatar that isn't as fully visually "empowered" as the male counterpart, irrespective of that avatar's actual abilities within the game.

Now before that flak comes in, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good idea for there to be a greater spectrum of how female heroines are presented visually, nor that there isn't some merit in the idea that visual presentation sometimes becomes the totality of a sexualized female character's identity, particularly when female characters are scarce. I'm absolutely in favor of more well-realized and identifiable female characters in games. But this particular argument seems to hearken awfully close to one of those "won't someone think about the children" emotional exclamations- and in particular, one where no one has actually bothered to see if the children are actually coming to harm, but only insisted that it was "common sense" that such a cause-and-effect relationship must exist, and anyone who thinks otherwise had better watch themselves lest they be branded a monster.

About Violence: We've grown up on said violence. It's been around for quite some time, even before 3d games. If this sort of thing were going ot make us all players violent psychopaths, the world would be reduced to ash about now.

About Sexualization: It's been kinda rare before games went 3d, I'd say. The graphics just weren't really there. When things went 3d, it kinda exploded.
In my experience, women are presented in demeaning manners, and are treated in demeaning manners to say the very least.
When women don't want to be represented that way, well, you see people rallying against the women that don't want it.

So, yeah, Violence prohecy hasn't really happened. Sexualization/demeaning? Actually happening. That's the difference, IMO.

I dunno who's pushing for women to be weak, feminist or not... well, game developers regularly don't let women be powerful, so there's that.
I dunno if it's really a push, though. Just... laziness, and the producers fighting against female protagonists, and reducing their agency.

 

[Shraggler]

Ever heard of slutwalks? Women are actually protesting for being able to dress up in skimpy clothing without being considered sex objects or fair game.

Which is just one the most pretentious, smug, stuck-up, asinine bullshit concepts I've ever heard or witnessed.

"Don't consider this fair game!" the hypothetical woman says while wearing a third of a T-shirt and "booty" shorts.

Why would any male perceive any differently? "Op! Can't go for her, she might not want me to, despite her suggestive apparel and public appearance in a social setting. Can't even approach her or I might get Mace'd!"

It's so insultingly stupid that it seems intentionally assholic. As if men are supposed to be clairvoyant mind-readers.

Exhibit A:

Spoiler: Miranda in Black

Miranda from Mass Effect.

Notice the skin tight latex suit and the boob window. Doubles as potential love interest for the player.

She's also a Cerberus officer, skilled fighter and powerful biotic. And guess what, she has a personality as well.

This is all true, but apparently it doesn't matter because boobs.

She also has her own personal demons and neuroses, and she also quests to save the proverbial "helpless princess" - her sister. And, should you take on that mission, she displays quite a bit of emotion and rage toward those who would stop her. She kills pretty much everyone opposing her in an effort to save her sister. How is that not compelling? How is that not empowering?

Also, and this isn't directed at you Chaos, what do people find offensive & wrong with her suit?

Look at everyone in Mass Effect, including the dude behind her. More often than not, a character (human or alien) will be wearing something skin-tight in that game. Male, female, Asari, most characters are wearing some form-fitting outfit.

In Miranda's case, she's a special agent of sorts, clearly accustomed, assigned and expected to physically strenuous missions. Loose clothing does not that easy make and a pragmatic choice it is not. Taking into account this is a science fiction universe set in the future, who's to say that black latex-looking outfit isn't something akin to wetsuits used in SCUBA diving, or hell, the tight-fitting garments used in yoga and aerobic classes?

The idea appears to be the same: warmth/protection against the elements, flexibility and societal functionality. Latex is incredibly restrictive, both for physical movement and airflow. In a latex bodysuit your range of motion is relatively low and you're sweating just standing there, never mind running, diving and engaging in combat all over the place, as Miranda does. Therefore, her outfit is not likely latex. I'm assuming that you didn't mean to imply that what Miranda is wearing is actually latex Chaos, I'm just generally making a rational point toward those who scream "OMG SEXIST!!!" upon viewing the screenshot you provided.

OT: Sexism implies some sort of negative bias or (illogical) discrimination based on one's sex.

We're a sexual species. Sorry. There needs to be two to tango and there is a clear, natural and inherent drive to do so. Women are beings of desire. They have been since probably before writing was even a thought. It's painted throughout history and even the animal kingdom, of which we are a part.

It's been that way for thousands, if not millions, of years. It's not going to change until we no longer need to fuck each other to propagate the species.

This is such a first-world non-issue. Someone creates attractive/sexy female characters in games and some people are out for blood. I mean fuck... PRIORITIES.

 

[jackpipsam]

Blizzard strikes me as a company which seems to do this kind of stuff the least.
I mean sure WoW females have lebigboobies.jpeg, but it seems far more tasteful than other games on the market.

 

[Bocaj2000]

The interesting thing is that I'm not upset the lack of a social statement. I'm instead disappointed about the lack of an artistic statement. "We're just making characters who look cool," is an artistically empty statement that I expect from a high schooler, but not from a character designer and game developer. I am disappoint.

How does this even work? To you an adult can not want to make something because it looks cool? What pray tell would an adult design a character, for a game, they plan to sell, for other than to be cool?

Any person with a pencil can draw whatever they want for whatever reason you want... until they claim to be an artist. Blizzard is big enough that a statement like this is embarrassing. "Why?" you ask? Because they are professionals and deserve enough respect to be treated as such. Creating something "just because it looks cool" is for the hobbyist and the amateur who don't know any better. Once you land a job as a character designer, once you land a job as a developer you should be beyond that kind of thinking. Making something "just look cool" without regard to atmosphere, mood, theme, and tone is simply bad design philosophy and he should know this. If he honestly doesn't, then I have no respect for him as an artist.

This article should help you understand:
http://gangles.ca/2009/01/20/the-six-layers/
Making something "just because it looks cool" is all surface with no depth or meat. It is empty. It's like biting into a beautiful shiny apple just to find that there is nothing underneath. Did I help you understand my point?

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

"Women are beings of Desire."
No, women are women.

Your statement is objectifying women sexually. In am attempt to disprove sexism, sexually objectifying women is not the best way to go about it. Even when a woman wants to be sexy, does not give others reign to sexually objectify her. Of course freedom of thought and speech prevail. That woman does not have control over those things, she does not have that afforded reign either. If you speak to her as if she is a sexual object, expect to be labeled a sexist. It really can not be any more clear than that.

This sexual objectifying is what the big deal is about, not sexy outfits. What the journalist is asking the developer, is if the art direction in the game is sexually objectifying. The problem being that with an overwhelming amount of sexist games(yeah, sexists-sexually objectifying games), the attitude of people thinking that saying that for thousands of years women have been sexually objectified is the very reason it is not sexist.

I am a man, and I will play some of the most objectifying games out there. I recognize this. Which does not really make it better. I am not trying to pretend that this is a non-issue. If you want to develop a sexually objectified character, own up to.

 

[Callate]

snip

That's at the least a thoughtful answer. Thank you. I want to give it some more consideration before I make a reply, but I appreciate that you provided it.

 

[Ryebread]

And are you really complaining that fictive characters can't decide what they wear by themselves? Seriously?

When someone's pretending that real life women who choose how they dress are related to fictional women who are designed as fanservice, yes I am.

Also, you asked how female characters in sexy clothes would do conquering planets, lead a war against zombies or act as spec ops in combat zones. And I gave you just the answer: pretty good, actually.

I asked how "these women you see in short skirts and bared midriffs" (ie, the ones you see walking around) in sexy clothes would do conquering planets and fighting zombies, not female characters. Another misunderstanding?

For the record, I don't use the forums often, mostly because of high-emotion threads like these. But could I make suggestions on how to direct your current arguments?

1) ***Less focus on MMO player-character dress-styles***
Whatever game devs may offer in terms of armor designs, their design choices and the intentions behind them can be obscured by the player's intentions. For example, the hardcore player may go out of his way to dress a dancing bard in fuller clothing/armor to appear more serious, while a lecherous player might have a hardened tanking paladin undressed all the time.

2) ***More focus on high-profile female characters used in promotional materials***
Instead, I would recommend focusing on the representation of their starring female characters, while remembering what point in time said representations occurred. An obvious example would be the Heroes of the storm trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0ecv0bT9DEo

I would also suggest avoiding in-game lore explanations (i.e. futuristic technology/arcane magicks nullify the need for bulky armor). Instead, it might be more illuminating to focus on why developers greenlit certain character designs for public viewing. Was she dressed like this to appeal to the drooling masses? Was she dressed like this to appeal to the social warrior club?

********************

I also remember someone mentioning League of Legend heroes. I've played both that and DOTA2, so I can make a few comparisons.

First, two snake-themed characters: Cassiopeia and Medusa.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/cassiopeia/
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/File:Medusa_splash.jpg

While Cassiopeia is roughly 50% snake and 50% bikini-woman, Medusa's design is much scalier and has a larger focus on intimidation.

Then, there are the sultry redhead characters: Ms Fortune and Lina.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/missfortune/
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/File:Crystal_Maiden_Lina_Steam_Profile_Background.png

They both are obviously sultry in dress and tone, and both expose significant skin as well. However, and this may be a personal bias of mine, Ms Fortune is trivialized by exaggerated sexiness (excessive use of heart symbols, wears sexy-stereotype high-heels) while Lina maintains a certain class by being represented as a skilled magician, allowing her to dress light (she floats barefooted).

DOTA2 has a reputation of putting thought into the design of its heroes, while LoL (no offence) is aiming for a comparatively casual crowd. The same crowd Heroes of the Storm appears to be aiming for, if I may add. LoL is criticized for having a majority of its human female champions designed to entice young male players with cleavage and butts:
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/katarina/
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/leblanc/
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/zyra/
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/syndra/

BUT not all of LoL's human female champs are like this. Sejuani was recently redesigned from a metal bikini to being better fur and armor to complement her character as a front-line northern warrior:
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/sejuani/

********************

Finally, I'd like to remind everyone to refrain from ad hominems and overtly positive/negative adjectives, as those only distract from the main argument. Also, I'd like to reiterate a statement I've already seen a few times in this thread.

*Sexuality* itself is not being argued against, nor anyone arguing that it be completely removed from games.

It is the *over-reliance* on overt sexuality that is the topic of the main argument. Thank you and good night.

 

[Sofus]

What is going on?!

What's wrong with saying "we're just making characters who look cool". There is nothing sexist, racist or offensive about wanting to design things so that people want to collect, use or display it. Do people honestly expect Blizzard to say crap such as "we don't care what the players might want... here at Blizzard we aim for bland, boring and unimaginative character design."

I am so sick and tired of all this garbage about everyone having to be politically correct all the damn time. "Buhu.. I was almost slightly offended by that comment someone call the police, the president and seven major news networks".

 

[Ryebread]

I find it bizarre that there's always someone who brings up burkhas in these discussions. As if there aren't any other options between chainmail bikinis and burkhas. Or when people argue that "dressing sexy" is the standard that pretty much every western woman follows nowadays. I mean, I get that not a lot of people are interested in fashion or clothes but isn't it kinda obvious that there is variation in modern fashion and style and that the goal isn't always to look as sexy as possible?

Spoiler

I don't think it's surprising that people (men and women) would want to see some of that diversity also in video games.

THANK you for pointing that out. Everytime, I see someone trotting out the "Bikinis or Burkhas" false dichotomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[Clive_Paddington]

How many of you people here are actually female? I'm genuinely curious. Because from the way most of you guys are talking, it sounds like you aren't.

If all of you guys are male, do you realize how misogynistic this discussion sounds? It does from my viewpoint at least. Many of you people are talking about women as if they are things that need to be protected from the evil sexist video games, and they all obviously hate how video games display them. It seriously sounds like you're telling anyone remotely female how to feel about the situation. I'd seriously like to hear some female opinions, from both sides. Too many people are sounding like white knights.

In my opinion, I'm surprised so many people care, I've never heard of an incident where a girl has been mistreated because of the way that women are portrayed in video games. Yeah, lots of guys are complete fuckwits who insult females to boost their egos, but that happens because the guys are twats, not because a video game told them too. I agree with Callate, if violence in video games doesn't have an effect on us, why should over-sexualized women affect us? I don't think anyone who doesn't have their head down a toilet would ever base their views on women on what they have learned from a video game.

Although, I would like to ask, what do people get so offended by? Why is it so much of a problem? I'm pretty curious to know what you guys say.

 

[Candidus]

Ugh not this debate again the poor guy, its the individual design that got the green light by the producer and people go "zomgz bewbs hotness why you no sexualisation equalisez blahah blah"

It seems like nowadays every single time there a good looking women as a heroine that people get overly aggressive and offended.

Bottom line if you don't like the design don't play the game

I am 100% with the dev. The entire gaming industry has taken this whole sexualisation issue to absurd lengths. Frankly, it's embarrassing.

100% this.

"zomg-bewbs-hotness-why-you-no-sexualization-equalisez-blahah-blah."

I'm doing my best to memorize and master the fast delivery of this line in order to belittle the arrival of gender politickers to topics I have no interest in seeing shitted up by them in the future.

On topic.

I like the Heroes of the Storm's female characters better the way that they are; flirtatious and scantily clad. I'm apathetic at best to the movement that opposes this*. So naturally I roll eyes at incidents like this.

Spoiler

* "That's because you've already got what you want from the male representations."

Answer - No, it isn't. Because I don't want anything from male representations and don't care what sort of shape they're in industry-wide! I never, ever play a male character when there's a female alternative. Never. Not once. And when I have no choice but to play a male character, I couldn't be less interested in his particulars; his motives, personality or physique. All irrelevant to me.

Sexy female character present in a game? Good, and it might as well be the only one, because it's the only one I'll play. Of course I don't want to see them squeezed down to a niche.

The most I can do is concede that a niche is where such characters belong if we're going to stop excluding- or at least making uncomfortable- 50% of all gamers. That concession though, should not be mistaken for support.

It's too dangerous to lend support to a movement of hysterical people who attack the trend even in the niche where it obviously belongs. Dragon's Crown is the latest example. Vanillaware (alongside Team Ninja) is practically the embodiment of the appropriate niche, so yes, of course they released yet another game that sexualizes its female options. Why the incredulity? Calm your nuts. Know where to stop.