Blizzard to Remove "Sexy" Tracer Pose in Overwatch - Update

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Silvanus

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Eacaraxe said:
In short, Kojima trolled all y'all, and made every person who bitches about objectification in games look like a complete, utter ass, because the very act of objectification in this case as perpetuated by nominally "anti-objectification" critics completely silences the character.
That doesn't really work. Quiet being mute-- and breathing through her skin-- are not aspects she was born with; they are characteristics written for her by the creator.

When people criticise the design choice, the in-game reason for it is not a suitable response, because that was included in order to get her to take her clothes off. There's an implicit criticism of that, too. You could justify any design choice by appealing to an in-game rationale you included specifically to justify it. We know to look past that-- because it's fictional-- and ask for the motivations of the designer/writer, not the character.
 

Something Amyss

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Silvanus said:
That doesn't really work. Quiet being mute-- and breathing through her skin-- are not aspects she was born with; they are characteristics written for her by the creator.
She's not actually mute, either. Nor does the other character with a similar affliction need the rationale of a thong to survive. Or shove his ass in the camera. Or frolic in puddles and shower in front of people. I guess she was drowning herself to symbolise how her cticis were strangling her?

One thing we learned is that Quiet's ability to breathe through her skin is nothing compared to Kojima's ability to speak through his ass.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Dizchu said:
Uhh I'm pretty sure all Kojima did was make himself look desperate. The reason he gave was a cheap bait-and-switch which he tried to pass off as profound. "Hey we're not objectifying her, you are" just sounds like "I know you are, but what am I?" It's childish.
Not to get schoolyard here, but the guy created Metal Gear Solid 2, one of the first (and to date, one of a scant handful of) games to receive attention in academic and intelligentsia circles outside the gaming community (most notably, philosophy and literature circles who generally look at video games with the same disdain they would over the idea of eating a dog shit sandwich for lunch), the game that heralded postmodernism and introduced the concept of metanarrative to gaming, a vital tentpole in the argument whether or not games are art, and a game over which fifteen years later people still debate its philosophical and allegorical meaning.

I'll take his word on his own creative work, over that of a pack of revenue-starved glorified bloggers.

You could justify any design choice by appealing to an in-game rationale you included specifically to justify it. We know to look past that-- because it's fictional-- and ask for the motivations of the designer/writer, not the character.
The problem with that argument, is that it's reductive and paradoxically undermines authorial intent since any female character which displays sexuality, and any forthcoming statement made by the creator through that character, can then be disregarded wholesale by simply claiming the creators just wanted to justify fanservice. Just like what happened with Hideo Kojima and Quiet (see above).
 

Silvanus

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Houseman said:
Are you saying that one can't possibly design rules first and then dress characters to fit those rules, and that it always must be the other way around?

1. There exists Vampiric clothing that sucks your blood in proportion to surface area.
2. More powerful clothing uses more blood.
3. Therefore, more powerful clothing must cover a tiny surface area, or else it would kill the wearer.

Are these rules, or are these just excuses to retroactively justify skimpy outfits? Unless you're the creator, the creator has released a statement, or you can read minds, I don't think you can say for certain. It seems like a weighty claim to say "The creative process starts with characters and their outfits first, and everything else is a justification! No exceptions!"
It is indeed a weighty claim. It's also a claim I never made.

Something Amyss said:
She's not actually mute, either. Nor does the other character with a similar affliction need the rationale of a thong to survive. Or shove his ass in the camera. Or frolic in puddles and shower in front of people. I guess she was drowning herself to symbolise how her cticis were strangling her?

One thing we learned is that Quiet's ability to breathe through her skin is nothing compared to Kojima's ability to speak through his ass.
Ahh, but the skin-breathing works differently for men. They... well, they have enough surface area on their hands, y'see, and necks. Owing to the slightly larger hands and necks that men have.
 

Something Amyss

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Eacaraxe said:
The problem with that argument, is that it's reductive and paradoxically undermines authorial intent since any female character which displays sexuality, and any forthcoming statement made by the creator through that character, can then be disregarded wholesale by simply claiming the creators just wanted to justify fanservice. Just like what happened with Hideo Kojima and Quiet (see above).
So why doesn't it happen everywhere? Since it can be so easily done, why is this one instance so prominent? Seems Quiet shouldn't even stand out on this front, and yet she does.

Houseman said:
1. There exists Vampiric clothing that sucks your blood in proportion to surface area.
2. More powerful clothing uses more blood.
3. Therefore, more powerful clothing must cover a tiny surface area, or else it would kill the wearer.
That doesn't even make sense, as more powerful clothing would need more blood, and therefore reducing the surface area should reduce its power or increase localised consumption. That would be dangerous.

These rules aren't internally consistent and look exactly like an attempt to justify skimpy clothing after the fact.

Silvanus said:
Ahh, but the skin-breathing works differently for men. They... well, they have enough surface area on their hands, y'see, and necks. Owing to the slightly larger hands and necks that men have.
Oh, right. Sexual dimorphism. I always forget.
 

Dizchu

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Eacaraxe said:
I'll take his word on his own creative work, over that of a pack of revenue-starved glorified bloggers.
George Lucas created one of the most influential pop culture phenomenons of all time, and along with Steven Spielberg made an everlasting change to the film industry.

That doesn't mean people that think the prequels and special editions suck "just don't get it".
 

Iceklimber

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Blizzard used to make Games full of sexual Innuendo. Warcraft 3 fetured obscene language ranging from "Welcum" signs to talks of G-strings to porn ads, as well as revealing clothes like garters or women who spread their legs and reveal Pantsu. This trend continued into World of Warcraft, whose Elf was wearing Bikini Armor.

But now, the Legion Sylvanas wears chastity belly protection. Overwatch removes onanism joke as well as the remotely sexy Tracer pose. Because of SJWs demands.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Dizchu said:
George Lucas created one of the most influential pop culture phenomenons of all time, and along with Steven Spielberg made an everlasting change to the film industry.

That doesn't mean people that think the prequels and special editions suck "just don't get it".
...you say at a time when the ring theory essay, and "Darth Jar-Jar" theories, are prompting Star Wars fans to actually critically re-examine the prequel films in the wake of TFA...whether or not you agree with ring theory and the "Darth-Darth Binks" theories is up to you, but they make two things clear, and those are there's more going on with the prequels than is readily apparent, and that Lucas just might be worth the benefit of the doubt on at least some of his creative decisions with the prequels.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I just threw up a little in my mouth and need to see to that.
 

Falling_v1legacy

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@Eacaraxe
Star Wars Ring Theory and Darth Jar Jar is nothing more than fan fiction as far as I'm concerned. Particularly Darth Jar Jar, which just does not hold up. It's a silly attempt to add depth when there was little.

Iceklimber said:
Blizzard used to make Games full of sexual Innuendo. Warcraft 3 fetured obscene language ranging from "Welcum" signs to talks of G-strings to porn ads, as well as revealing clothes like garters or women who spread their legs and reveal Pantsu. This trend continued into World of Warcraft, whose Elf was wearing Bikini Armor.

But now, the Legion Sylvanas wears chastity belly protection. Overwatch removes onanism joke as well as the remotely sexy Tracer pose. Because of SJWs demands.
...and before that there was Warcraft 2 and 1 that had none of that. Diablo 1 and 2 had more scanty clothes than Diablo 3. But Starcraft 1 and BW had none of that, but Starcraft 2 suddenly gave Kerrigan a boob job and high heals. Blizzard has been all over the map with this stuff.

But here's the thing. Tastes can change. Have any of you (or any of you) listened to the Chris Metzen interview, talking about his daughter? The Blizzard guys have grown up and are family men and apparently Chris' daughter was playing one of his games and asked him why all the women wore swimsuits, to which he said 'I don't know.' It sounded like a revelatory moment for him to be honest. Like they really hadn't thought that much as to the why they had done things one way because that's just the way they had done it. Then suddenly one comment gave him a new perspective. That can happen, and artists need to be allowed their epiphany moments and change as they go along.
 

SlumlordThanatos

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Jesus Quintana said:
I'd be more concerned about how shit the games have been lately, not about a handful of references and jokes that make up less than 10 seconds of content over 20 years.
You might actually be on to something here.

Blizzard's recent games, while not bad, have been met with a lot of indifference lately; Hearthstone has been their only recent success. Considering how heavily Blizzard has been pushing this game, and considering the hefty price tag, people desperately want this game to basically become the Second Coming of Christ.

So when Blizzard mishandles something, like they did here, people jump all over it.
 

Silvanus

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Houseman said:
Then how do you know that the rules for Quiet were just justifications, as opposed to Quiet being a natural consequence of the rules? The only way I can see you reaching this conclusion is if you made that claim.
No, it isn't. Firstly, the claim you imagine I'm making is one concerning every instance everywhere; you pushed it to the extreme, for no discernible reason, when we were only actually talking about this one example. What I think happened in this one example doesn't mean I don't think anything else ever happens in other instances.

Now, with regards to why I think in this instance the rationale probably came after the aesthetic design; it's a little too coincidental that the design happens to look very sexy indeed, and that the camera gives Quiet's ass a great deal of unnecessary screen-time. It's also notable that when a man needed to breath through his skin in the same series, he didn't need skimpy outfits.

So, I don't know for sure, but I heavily suspect.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
It's also notable that when a man needed to breath through his skin in the same series, he didn't need skimpy outfits.
The End being parasite-enhanced was a pretty major retcon that only showed up in MGSV, ostensibly to preemptively answer questions about similarities between Quiet and The End, and likely added as an afterthought. Originally, The End's powers relevant to this point only extended to his living ghillie suit. And, even considering that retcon, it's still fully justified in-game.

First, Code Talker states Quiet's parasites were engineered, using The End's strain as a basis.

Second, unlike Code Talker who also had the parasites, or The End, Quiet's lungs were destroyed (in the hospital incident) meaning her parasites were her body's only source for oxygen. That's in the interrogation scene. Neither Code Talker nor The End needed (in the sense that without that capability, they would die) to breathe through their skin; Quiet did.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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I find it funny that the first statement put out on this issue was that they didn't want want to exclude anyone or make anyone feel ignored. Then they proceeded to do exactly that to those who disagreed. with the pose removal.

Why don't more companies just have in game polls and then actually listen to the players? I understand that in this situation, the art director made his choice based on the personality of the character. I can respect that.

But to those companies big enough to deal with moral panic and such issues, why not put it up to democracy and let the decision be made there? Especially over something this tiny?

This is an era where gamers gravitate towards companies that at least give them the opportunity to make their case, rather than tell the gamer what content they "can't handle."
 

EMWISE94

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Something Amyss said:
Honestly, I think it's mostly fanservice. Well, actually, I suspect fanservice becomes normalised and that's what this is. So we get these de facto getups where women look like they're poured into almost any material, with asset-emphasising clothes and poses (I've even heard people say women naturally move like this, to which I must ask if they've ever seen women in the wild). I mean, in this case, Tracer may have been designed as-is for that exact reason. This is just what you do.

And yeah, men get a lot more body diversity, period. It's not controversial to have a fat character, or a scarred one. Or a thin one. That's one of the big issues, that women tend to have a much narrower range in terms of assets.

This carries over into gaming a lot for me. Like, I've played a fair share of DC Universe Online with friends. And They're all playing male characters. They get these awesome armour drops. I'm like, wow, cool, I want that for my character! And then I get it, and it's like, a halter top or has a giant boob window in it. Might even be closer to spandex than the cool battle armour the male models get. Same pieces of equipment.

In fact, there are threads on the game's forums looking basically for help making certain characters who aren't proudly flaunting their tits and ass.

I've mentioned this online, and I've been accused of wanting to censor people. I've been accused of hating video games or being an anti-sex prude. And, I mean, I like looking at the female form. That doesn't mean that I want my character to be all torpedo tits and a thong. I just wish there were more options that didn't do that, because it means female pickings are slim if you don't want to make a sexy character. And it's not necessarily even the worst example, because high-level gear doesn't strip you to a thong, but I don't play many MMOs and so I rarely have a direct comparison between male and female armour.

But like, I want my characters to look the way I want them to. Often time, I want them to look badass. Not always, but often times.

And I mean, obviously this gets a bit off the track of these characters, who are non-created characters, but it's still sort of an issue that there's such slim pickings. But it's basically a scandal when a woman doesn't show off her butt in a game.
I know that feeling oh too well, heck anytime a game let me create a custom character of sorts I usually go for a female character and if its a combat oriented game, try to make her look as badass as I can, that is if the game allows me to. As for MMOs currently have a Guild Wars 2 account and I dabble when I can, luckily the character class I chose has nice full armour for my female character, though the game does has your typical 'female character designs' sprinkled here and there, but yeah for the most part I'm happy with the way my character looks.

In terms of pointing out some female character designs i don't like, I've resorted to not bothering in most cases mostly cause it seems like if there's sexy female character design and you point out that you don't like it, the common accusations that get thrown at you are that you're gay or there something wrong with you for not vocally expressing your desire to masturbate or have sex with said character. That is something I find really REALLY odd at times, I know I keep going back to this example but its the only one that i see most commonly (due to me having an interest in fighting games) but when Laura's costumes are shown off there's always a plethora of comments just going on about on about how they want her ass or whatever.

Kinda going back to the topic of this thread, I'm at times baffled at the 'threats' some gamers make when a change like this happens, the amount of discussions and threads on SFV Steam hub of people saying they'd boycott the game if Capcom didn't put the asslap back were so many it started to look sad. It seems like the 'war' against the mythological all-censoring SJW that are ruining games left right and centre is being 'fought' by the most lowest of individuals, and no matter how much I try to avoid it, it just keeps popping up on my face. My damn Youtube feed filled with titles such as "Blizzard says 'NO BUTTS' in Overwatch" or "Overwatch Butt Censorship", sure its all just click baity stuff, but I look at it and all that comes to mind is: This is the same thing as when some violent shooting or event happens done by an individual and the media quickly latch onto video games being the cause, thus fuelling the paranoid ignorant parental figures of their negative views on games. The videos are usually neutral but then comment sections are just trash (yeah I know its a youtube comment section but sometimes there's actual discussions in those) and personally I'm just tired of it. I don't know what its gonna take to usher these types of thoughts under the rug like the Hardcore vs Casual debates we'd see en masse back in like 2008-2010, but I hope it comes soon cause with the way its going I feel like its just gonna keep going on and on, circling some massive echo chamber that benefits no-one.

Going back to my point on the whole importance of stating the reasons behind designs, I feel it'd massively aid in discussion like this, if a player points out a design and says "Why is this so sexy for no reason change it." I feel the development team responding in a manner of: "its sexy because [reason they wanted to make said design] and [optional in-game universe reason]." would be so satisfying. I mean look back at Dragon's Crown, I remember when the Sorceress was revealed a journalist from Polygon or Kotaku I can't remember which one might not be either, made accusations that it was just a dumb fanservicy character design made by a 13 yr old, then the lead artist from Atlus responded and they had that back and forth and in the end had a discussion on why the design was such and it was brilliant closure, because it went from being a typical titillating design to a titillating design with artistic reason! Then you have the whole Quiet debacle where many were calling out her design and Kojima danced around it, claiming the accusers would feel dumb when they find out the actual in game reason for it... and the mystery was revealed the design was called out even more.

I think it was Kaplan who said it but he mentioned once how he started to question how they designed female characters at Blizzard only after his daughters asked him why all the swimsuit like clothing for female characters. Sometimes character designers just operate on this status quo of how female designs look cause no-one questions them on it, and in instances where they do and a discussion is had sometimes they can move forward with better insight on how to design characters visually and it would be beneficial for all involved.

I rambled on a bit... but then again rarely do I get to discuss this so I have a bunch of pent up argument in me :/
 

Falling_v1legacy

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I think it was Kaplan who said it but he mentioned once how he started to question how they designed female characters at Blizzard only after his daughters asked him why all the swimsuit like clothing for female characters.
I'm pretty sure it was actually Chris Metzen, but the point still stands.
 

LawAndChaos

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When it comes to this whole debacle, I've taken the time to read a lot on here, and contemplate this.

I would suggest to many to wait for the replacement and see what it looks like. If it's better to her character, than great. If it's worse, then it can just sit around being ignored. It is only one pose.

As a side note I am kinda annoyed at the sex-negative perspective people tend to take in these kinds of discussions.
Tracer could have a little cheeky side to her, maybe not. Could the pose be toned down a little? Yeah, maybe firming out the butt crease would reduce the whole thing fine. But let's not start making broad strokes like "every woman is expected to show sexuality" and turn this into yet another "men against women" argument.

Sexuality is a facet of every person with a pulse. Sexual desire is a side effect of the reproductive instinct. Most certainly the fact that it is NOT the only facet of our existence puts us above a rutting animal, but that does not mean we should regard it with disgust like we have somehow ascended beyond our humanity. You are not some supranatural metahuman that "has no need for such vulgar feelings; they are beneath me, and should be beneath you."


I don't see why the pose needed changing beyond it not fitting Tracer (because honestly it's too reserved for someone like her anyway; she doesn't strike me as the type to be all cool as opposed to making quips, salutes or joking around, considering how cavalier she is in the snippets we have of her character), but if the new pose is actually better to her character, than it's no big loss.

And seriously Widowmaker was brainwashed into a sleeper agent to murder her husband and then was converted into what is essentially a walking corpse with a minimum pulse. The woman can't feel anything, so any sort of flirtation or sexual posing is nonsensical for a character who almost literally feels nothing, especially since she got those body mods to make her the "best snipar evar," so her seducing a target is not only impractical, but unnecessary. Aside from the "no warm body temperature" thing.

That being said...

The creators have the final say as to what does and doesn't fit her character. If they choose to remove the pose, it's their decision. That being said, Kaplan only turned things into a shitshow by trying to virtue signal. They should've just changed the pose into something else and been done with it, no muss no fuss, because hey, it's just a pose.

It's the stance he took on the matter with Fipps that was either poorly timed or just him tossing the team under the bus by acting like some cheeky posing was "wrong." My optimism claims the former, precedent claims the latter.

What I am tired of is "inclusive" or "diverse" being misused as viable critique, especially towards videogames. A good character is determined by their personality and their story, not their gender or race, or orientation. I'll keep coming back to Indivisible as the best example, where someone praising its "diversity" over its good character design, artwork and animation makes me cringe so hard my face withdraws into my head.

When a creator claims to be making the change for inclusivity, they are saying "we are making this change because some group might dislike this and feel like they're being excluded, so we are going to change this to make them feel less excluded." If the pose is no big deal, why is it something that needed to be removed? Who is being excluded by Tracer's butt?

And for those people disagreeing with the pose fitting or not fitting Tracer's character:
It's boiling down to "this character is not acting in a way consistent with MY perception of how this character behaves! Change this!"

And pointing out that this is how the majority of people are acting about the removal, then I have to wonder, what makes Fipps so special that Kaplan feels the need to acknowledge his opinion in relation to the reasoning behind the change? Fipps is acting no differently than the majority of the people opposed to the removal, just on the opposite side.

This is not the kind of logic that demonstrates "creative freedom" and I think this is why there's such a huge backlash. Kaplan and them might have originally planned to change it, but his response to Fipps was a head over heels dive into complete and total agreement (despite Fipps operating on the logic that an adult knowing what being sexy is automatically devalues their character).

Well that's my mildly sleepy, potentially redundant 2 cents on the issue. I'll show myself out and continue to observe the argumentum ad infinitum that shall swirl around this thread for another week or so until the next nontroversy cones along.
 

deadish

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No point debating this. It will just give the SJW movement more publicity.

Personally I plan to just boycott any developer that shows signs of caving to SJW demands. I won't buy their games. I won't talk about their games to other.

We need to remember. We don't owe Blizzard our money. We don't owe them word of mouth.

At the end of the day, the invisible hand of market forces is the ultimate arbitrator - i.e. money.

I'm just pushing it ever so slightly in the direction I prefer. You should too.
 

Silvanus

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Eacaraxe said:
The End being parasite-enhanced was a pretty major retcon that only showed up in MGSV, ostensibly to preemptively answer questions about similarities between Quiet and The End, and likely added as an afterthought. Originally, The End's powers relevant to this point only extended to his living ghillie suit. And, even considering that retcon, it's still fully justified in-game.

First, Code Talker states Quiet's parasites were engineered, using The End's strain as a basis.

Second, unlike Code Talker who also had the parasites, or The End, Quiet's lungs were destroyed (in the hospital incident) meaning her parasites were her body's only source for oxygen. That's in the interrogation scene. Neither Code Talker nor The End needed (in the sense that without that capability, they would die) to breathe through their skin; Quiet did.
Indeed, those are the in-game justifications given. I'm arguing that we should look beyond that, to the creator, the one who actually made the decisions.

I do not believe it's a coincidence (or purely a result of organic, in-world reasons) that the only one who needs to have most of her clothes off all the time is a young, sexually-attractive woman, and I don't believe it's a coincidence that the camera pans so emphatically to her butt.

deadish said:
Personally I plan to just boycott any developer that shows signs of caving to SJW demands.
What signs would those be? After all, the developer is not exactly going to state that as their motive for making a decision; the "SJW" accusation comes from outside.
 

KaraFang

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Can't we just leave the pose in the game... but not make it the default pose?

Then if those that like the sassy "I'm awesome, and you know it" look she gives over her shoulder can be selected for those that want to use it. Those who do not want it do not have to select it.

Everyone wins.

PS - anyone who is writing about their young girl viewing a game about murdering people, no matter how cartoony, and from all instances (in the UK at least) looks like it will get a 15 age rating, has more important issues as a parent to be concerned about.
 

Vigormortis

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You know, I keep seeing people (here and elsewhere) bickering and arguing back and forth about "this offends me!" and "this shouldn't offend anyone!" and "artistic freedom!" and "censorship!" And all I've taken away from the arguments is the urge to say, "Shut the hell up. All of you." There was a better solution to this problem than either just removing or just keeping the pose, but no one seems to realize it. Nor do they seemingly realize how simple a solution it was.

JUST ADD MORE OPTIONS.

When will people realize that removing optional content isn't being 'more inclusive'. You create more inclusiveness by adding more optional content. That way, each person has an option to replace whatever 'thing' may be offending them. And, more over, you can further address the issue by adding more control options for the players. Allow the players, individually, to decide which content they want to view on their end. If they don't like a pose, they can disable it or have the game default it to something else.

By adding more, you give the players more. It's a win/win.