Brink : No Girls Allowed

[Farseer Lolotea]

Except thats a damn good excuse.
Asking the Brink devs to make female models with their own sets of options for pretty much everything would be like asking say Bungie to have 1000 player matches in their next game, for instance.

Heaven forbid video game developers have to do any more work on character models in their oh-so-customizable game, right?

Seriously, read that article: That excuse fails, always has fail, and always will fail. It comes down to "female models are a lower priority than male models, and that's how it should be."

I see what you mean, but put it this way;
Would anyone really like the look of female avatars in the games style? Furthermore, you can be a 'heavy' bodytype.
Who's gonna wanna see a female heavy?

...oh, you did not just go there. Female characters aren't worth it unless they conform to your standards for eye candy, right? (In before Godwin.)

Just, seriously.
How much of a game is affected by the absence of female characters? Why should it even matter?
It just isn't an issue, but feel free to try and give me a good reason why it is.

Because even if one doesn't argue that it's sexist (and I've been trying very, very hard to not play that card)? Not only are they half-assing one of the major selling points of their game, but they're trotting out the oldest, weakest excuse in the book to try to justify the unjustifiable.

Well that's your opinion, which are a lot like excuses... which are a lot like armpits as you put it.

"Well, that's your opinion" is about the weakest come-back in the book. Just saying.

 

[Super Happy Cow]

Are there any other next gen character artists here besides myself that find it laughable at how easy and inexpensive people seem to believe it is to create severely customizable characters?

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Are there any other next gen character artists here besides myself that find it laughable at how easy and inexpensive people seem to believe it is to create severely customizable characters?

So who said it was "easy?"

The argument has never been that it's "easy." The argument is that, considering how important character models are to begin with and how much Splash has bragged about its customization, female models should have been just as high of a priority as male models.

But apparently, half of an omfghuge character customization system is "deeper" than a complete one that's possibly somewhat less omfghuge. Because that's what it's got right now: half of a character customization system.

 

[Lukeydoodly]

Who gives a shit about something like that?

Pathetic.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Who gives a shit about something like that?

Well, a game company trying to sell its game on "customization" certainly should.

Pathetic.

Yes, releasing a game when one of its main selling points is only half-done is pretty pathetic. We know.

 

[Super Happy Cow]

Are there any other next gen character artists here besides myself that find it laughable at how easy and inexpensive people seem to believe it is to create severely customizable characters?

So who said it was "easy?"

The argument has never been that it's "easy." The argument is that, considering how important character models are to begin with and how much Splash has bragged about its customization, female models should have been just as high of a priority as male models. Because apparently, half of an omfghuge character customization is "deeper" than a complete, if possibly somewhat less, omfghuge one.

Being a next gen character artist, I can tell you that having a pipeline where you have to create assets that fit 3 different bodytypes, and two different sexes, while maintaining clothing customization, decent rigs, and animations would be incredibly expensive compared to picking one of the two sexes. It's definitely reasonable that you would pick one of the two sexes.

I don't think there's any need to start a civil rights movement about it. Granted, the logic that a customization game that touts customization should have as much as possible. On the other hand, flipping your shit over it is way overkill. If you've been to any 3D art forums you'll know that there are at least as many female characters as there are male characters showcased for review, so it's definitely not a sexism thing.

It's just the only bottom line there ever was.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Being a next gen character artist, I can tell you that having a pipeline where you have to create assets that fit 3 different bodytypes, and two different sexes, while maintaining clothing customization, decent rigs, and animations would be incredibly expensive compared to picking one of the two sexes. It's definitely reasonable that you would pick one of the two sexes.

You know...everyone's an expert on the Interwebs. I could claim to be a next-gen character artist myself, tell you that you're talking out the back of your neck, and announce that you must be operating on the notion that female characters in video games have to be horrible pin-up caricatures with plenty of jiggle physics.

But I'm honest. I'm just someone who did some amateur 3D modeling back in the day. So I won't.

I'll just say this: No, if you're selling your game on customization, there is nothing "reasonable" about as basic a component of that as half of your character models being the first thing in line for the axe. (As an artist yourself, you should know that game companies have separate teams for character design. And again: no company making games as sophisticated as Brink is that strapped for cash.)

I don't think there's any need to start a civil rights movement about it. Granted, the logic that a customization game that touts customization should have as much as possible. On the other hand, flipping your shit over it is way overkill. If you've been to any 3D art forums you'll know that there are at least as many female characters as there are male characters showcased for review, so it's definitely not a sexism thing.

That's nice. But "there are female characters on 3D art forums" does not add up to "Splash did not, in fact, chop out half of one of Brink's big selling point, then make lame excuses for it."

It's just the only bottom line there ever was.

...what is that even supposed to mean?

 

[distended]

"Well, that's your opinion" is about the weakest come-back in the book. Just saying.

Lol, sorry, I didn't realize we were in a "yo mama, one up the other guy" type argument. And despite being a "weak come-back," it's the truth. You can't express any part of your argument without using the word "should" or some qualifier that is entirely based on your personal values. It's possible to have extensive customization in a game without having gender as an option. The devs, the ads, the marketing team... no one ever said you'd be able to play as a female. That's a turnoff to you and some other people... so don't buy the game. Organize a boycott, start a task force, raise awareness on the internet and in your community, do what you want.

I suddenly find myself wondering what we're even debating here. You wish that the female option had been included in the game and you feel that the devs' excuses for why they didn't are lame. Am I missing anything?

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Lol, sorry, I didn't realize we were in a "yo mama, one up the other guy" type argument.

Neither did I, until you went for "well, that's your opinion."

And despite being a "weak come-back," it's the truth. You can't express any part of your argument without using the word "should" or some qualifier that is entirely based on your personal values.

Splash's professional ethics don't count. Gotcha.

It's possible to have half of what could otherwise be extensive customization in a game without having gender as an option.

Fixed that for you. If there's only one gender, it's half of a customization system.

The devs, the ads, the marketing team... no one ever said you'd be able to play as a female. That's a turnoff to you and some other people... so don't buy the game. Organize a boycott, start a task force, raise awareness on the internet and in your community, do what you want.

Oh, you mean exactly what's going on here (your exaggerations aside)?

I suddenly find myself wondering what we're even debating here. You wish that the female option had been included in the game and you feel that the devs' excuses for why they didn't are lame. Am I missing anything?

The part where people are toting Splash's sedan chair and mocking/trying to shout down everyone who calls bullshit on their excuses.

 

[distended]

If there's only one gender, it's half of a customization system.

It might be half of the customization system you've envisioned, but it's 100% of their customization system. But I guess your opin... er... what you think constitutes a customization system trumps what anyone else thinks.

Anyway, how have they been unethical? By lying about their reasons for leaving female character models out? If so, why would they lie? What are they hiding? If otherwise, please elaborate.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

It might be half of the customization system you've envisioned, but it's 100% of their customization system.

In other words: they did it; therefore, there must be nothing wrong with it.

But I guess your opin... er... what you think constitutes a customization system trumps what anyone else thinks.

Considering that "my opinion" is shared by...well, every game company that bothers with actual customization? Yeah, I'd say it trumps apologists for a company playing the "resources" card in this day and age.

Anyway, how have they been unethical? By lying about their reasons for leaving female character models out? If so, why would they lie? What are they hiding? If otherwise, please elaborate.

Just read this [http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed]. Specifically, this bit, by the blogger, in the comments:

I've talked to dozens of people about this issue, and it always boils down to the same thing. Regardless of whatever technical reason is being given for why having females "couldn?t" be done, the bottom line is that it could have been done if the Brink team had thought it was important enough.

Or are you going to claim to be some sort of expert with some inside knowledge?

 

[distended]

Or are you going to claim to be some sort of expert with some inside knowledge?

No, you've indrectly done enough of that for everyone in this thread.

The entire point of that blogger's post is what I suspected your entire argument was about, but that you've been too shy to admit for some reason. Anyway have fun with your civil rights movement. I'm sure you and yours will knock Rosa Parks right out of the history books.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

No, you've indrectly done enough of that for everyone in this thread.

The hell I have.

The entire point of that blogger's post is what I suspected your entire argument was about, but that you've been too shy to admit for some reason.

You can "suspect" whatever you want. Some people might believe that game companies are actively hostile towards women; I'd rather believe that they just still actually think "girls don't play video games," and therefore think no one will give a damn if they cut female characters.

But no matter what you call it, there's no real justification for it unless you do break out the "girls don't play video games" excuse. Which, whether or not it's sexist, is clueless.

Anyway have fun with your civil rights movement. I'm sure you and yours will knock Rosa Parks right out of the history books.

I'm sure you think that was witty.

 

[DeadProxy]

For a game that "claims" to be customizable...it's pretty fucking customizable regardless that it has female characters or not. Using that as a major argument point is beyond rediculous becase without women, theres still billions and trillions (according to them) of combinations. What the hell would it take to please you people?(obvioulsy rethorical)

"Theres over 104 quadrillion combonations!"-brink
-"but no women?"-complainers
"Well, no, but,theres plenty of other choises for you."-brink
-"No tits to stare at, im sorry but im not going to give your game the time of day"-complainers

That is what youre saying, in a game that boasts and delivers the highest customizability EVER (not researching, using " in my opinion" card), thats STILL not enough for you?

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

For a game that "claims" to be customizable...it's pretty fucking customizable regardless that it has female characters or not.

The half of its customization that's there is good. Half of anything is still half, no matter what a nice half it is.

-"No tits to stare at, im sorry but im not going to give your game the time of day"-complainers

Because the only reason anyone would want to play a female character is to stare at tits. Gotcha.

 

[DeadProxy]

For a game that "claims" to be customizable...it's pretty fucking customizable regardless that it has female characters or not.

The half of its customization that's there is good. Half is still half.

-"No tits to stare at, im sorry but im not going to give your game the time of day"-complainers

Because the only reason anyone would want to play a female character is to stare at tits. Gotcha.

It isnt half though, there IS no female option, simple as that. You keep trying to say all the clothing and guns are just half of what the game offers, which it isnt.

Also, I used a very general sentence on purpose, because the idea of that line is exactly why a large portion of people arent playing this game. Before even picking up the game, trying it, running up a wall to jump to another and whip around behind an enemy and shoot him in the back all in about 2-3 seconds, they say, "oh, no thanks, theres no girls in that game so im just gonna bash it for that point till its paste on the ground without any first hand experience."

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

It isnt half though, there IS no female option, simple as that.

But it's half because there's no female option.

You keep trying to say all the clothing and guns are just half of what the game offers, which it isnt.

I haven't said anything of the sort. I've only talked about its customization. Or rather, the half of customization that it has.

Also, I used a very general sentence on purpose, because the idea of that line is exactly why a large portion of people arent playing this game. Before even picking up the game, trying it, running up a wall to jump to another and whip around behind an enemy and shoot him in the back all in about 2-3 seconds, they say, "oh, no thanks, theres no girls in that game so im just gonna bash it for that point till its paste on the ground without any first hand experience."

Because heaven forbid that something that's of no concern to you is a dealbreaker??or one of multiple dealbreakers??to other people, right? And criticizing games and game companies? Simply not done!

That said? The reviewers aren't too fond of it, either.

 

[MasterV]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one have a penis, and I am quite proud of it. And guess what: surprisingly enough, I'm not a misogynist pig, and am indeed perplexed that a game that touts customization has no option to change gender in it.

I can, and will, call hypocritical bullshit when I see it though.

You and me both my friend, on all accounts. For it is bullshit of the highest order when developers use the "limitless customization" tagline as central to their precious child and then proceed to make half of the work on it.

Now, some children will find this a nitpicky topic, but really, calling out developers on bullshit they spout is what all self-respecting gamers should do.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Yes, cuz there's no such thing as a woman who works out. Or is fat. No fat or muscular women anywhere in the world, ever.

But don't you see...they're not hawt enough! What's the point of putting women in the game if they can't all be hawt?

Yeesh. You don't see me demanding that all of the male characters look like doe-eyed college football players...

I think the problem here is most of the defenders of this ass game aren't thinking of women as "women" they are thinking of women in the terms of "thing I would want to fuck." They don't mind things they would want to fuck not being in the game, and can see it in no other terms aside from that.

Pretty much. But that's all too common among fans (sadly enough).

Of course, it probably doesn't help that game companies tend to aim right at that demographic [http://www.cracked.com/article_18571_5-reasons-its-still-not-cool-to-admit-youre-gamer.html].

I can, and will, call hypocritical bullshit when I see it though.

Hear to the freakin' hear.

Now, some children will find this a nitpicky topic, but really, calling out developers on bullshit they spout is what all self-respecting gamers should do.

It's like I said a few pages back: voice a complaint that they don't share, and fans are going to try to shout you down. But when it's their complaint, the world is ending and the disputed company is pure evil.

 

[Super Happy Cow]

Being a next gen character artist, I can tell you that having a pipeline where you have to create assets that fit 3 different bodytypes, and two different sexes, while maintaining clothing customization, decent rigs, and animations would be incredibly expensive compared to picking one of the two sexes. It's definitely reasonable that you would pick one of the two sexes.

You know...everyone's an expert on the Interwebs. I could claim to be a next-gen character artist myself, tell you that you're talking out the back of your neck, and announce that you must be operating on the notion that female characters in video games have to be horrible pin-up caricatures with plenty of jiggle physics.

Hah. You really are something awful, aren't you? I am a character artist. Is that supposed to be a big deal? If it is so much of one to you that you find it so unbelievable, perhaps you need better priorities in life, and worthier idols? It's just a job, and I'm just entry level. But I know my shit, so don't make yourself look like a complete **** being hyper aggressive and assuming that I don't.

Go ahead. Explain to me the first steps you would take in developing a pipeline that would facilitate the streamlining of the character creation process that would result in 24 distinct looking characters, 3 bodytypes, and both sexes, All within 2 UV spaces maximum, for the base models, and give me an estimate of how long that would take.

But I'm honest. I'm just someone who did some amateur 3D modeling back in the day. So I won't.

I'll just say this: No, if you're selling your game on customization, there is nothing "reasonable" about as basic a component of that as half of your character models being the first thing in line for the axe.

You're quite far from honest, actually. Splash Damage has a ton of money? Do you know how many studios close on average per year? And how many people get layed off after every production cycle?

Splash Damage only made Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, which had only moderate success, and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, which was a free, full game.

Which AAA title or MMO with subscriptions did they get their money-vomiting vault of money from that allows them to spend 5 years on a game without ensured success, only to have them ALL potentially lose their jobs if one game fails? Complaining about something is perfectly fine. Even complaining about it vehemently is, just as well. But pretending you know everything there is to know about the subject that you clearly don't only causes your intelligence to come under intense scrutiny.

That's nice. But "there are female characters on 3D art forums" does not add up to "Splash did not, in fact, chop out half of one of Brink's big selling point, then make lame excuses for it."

The artists on these forums are the ones who make the assets for your games for a living. Knowing that many of them spend much of their FREE time perfecting their ability to make female characters, you'd think that these people who get payed to do it would be just as fair about making them for your games when money was thrown into the equation. But no. Females get cut AFTER money is introduced, not before.

Your idea that developers decided to neglect females simply because they were lazy, and not because it costs an exorbitant amount of money to do both is an idea based in pretty superficial ignorance that you're desperately unwilling to overcome.

As an artist yourself, you should know that game companies have separate teams for character design.

There you go, being sarcastic again and trying to appear omniscient. Yes, I am a professional 3D artist. You, on the other hand, seem to be professional only at making yourself look like an assumptive, caustic ass. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the sake of courtesy.

And did you mean the preproduction concept artists? Yeah, they're different. A lot of 3D guys can concept their own assets(I can't worth shit yet), but they generally don't.

The bottom line is money, by the way, hun. Money.