Bullying: Stop the complaining.
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I think, as others have pointed out, there is a difference between bullying (a continous directed assualt on some) and being a dick. Likewise some people just don't get on, which is nobodies fault. And often there is an attitude of screaming bullying over James not inviting Henry to his Birth day party, which is silly.
I do think it is important to teach kids that sometimes the system will fail. Sometimes bad people will not only escape punishment but be rewarded. And the good will sometimes go unrewarded and even, in some cases, punished. There is a responsibility on parents to make this clear to their kids. The world can be a grim place and it's much better to learn that when you are young then when you are older.
Schools quite often do pay a lot of lip service to the idea of anti-bullying measures. Isn't really that effective in my view, often it's more designed to make kids behav e a tad nicer to each other then actually solve bullying issues. And I do accept how hard it is for teachers to combat something which is very hard to see at times, especially when you know that there are a lot of legal restricitons on how you can act.
I don't think shrugging your shoulders and saying "cest le vie" over bullying is a constructive approach. Yes it will always be around but measures should be taken to reduce it. It is unfair to expect children to be able to deal with this, especially during their formative years when self-confidence and image are very important.
How to combat it, I'm not sure
I do think it is important to teach kids that sometimes the system will fail. Sometimes bad people will not only escape punishment but be rewarded. And the good will sometimes go unrewarded and even, in some cases, punished. There is a responsibility on parents to make this clear to their kids. The world can be a grim place and it's much better to learn that when you are young then when you are older.
Schools quite often do pay a lot of lip service to the idea of anti-bullying measures. Isn't really that effective in my view, often it's more designed to make kids behav e a tad nicer to each other then actually solve bullying issues. And I do accept how hard it is for teachers to combat something which is very hard to see at times, especially when you know that there are a lot of legal restricitons on how you can act.
I don't think shrugging your shoulders and saying "cest le vie" over bullying is a constructive approach. Yes it will always be around but measures should be taken to reduce it. It is unfair to expect children to be able to deal with this, especially during their formative years when self-confidence and image are very important.
How to combat it, I'm not sure
Well, from what I've seen, people with a superiority complex take non-physical bullying rather well. It personally made me not give a flying fuck about being social by any stretch. *shrug*Vault101 said:
As for the depression thing, the bad ones tend to be caused by chronic imbalances. Sadly, a lot of people don't realize that and won't shut up.
I think the problem is that there is a disconnect between what students went through ten years ago and what students are going through now when it comes to bullies. Bullies will always exist in every facet of life, there are just people who need to feel superior by making others feel inferior. Most of the time you can just walk away, find a quiet place to rest and zone out.
The problem students have today is being able to leave that torment at school. Students have integrated social media into their lives, they're never more than five feet from their cell phones or a computer. The bullies continue harass their victims through social media and through texting. The added benefit of anonymity on the internet only increases the likely of others joining in the bullying.
Case in point, the girl who recently committed suicide in Canada. She made a mistake providing a topless photo to some creeper on the internet. The photo was passed around to her school. She left one school but the bullying followed her, with people harassing her on facebook and spreading the photo to her new school. She got beaten up and left in a ditch because she went to spend time with a friend and his girlfriend took offense to that. She told her parents and they did everything they could to help, the school was powerless, hell the cops even knew about the picture did nothing. Even after the girl killed herself, her bullies continued to deride her on websites dedicated to her memory.
It took her death for something to be done about it with the asshole who circulated the picture being outed by Anonymous and the RCMP arresting and charging the people who posted comments that they were glad she was dead.
There have always been those kids who can't escape the bullying. It followed them home because they had no friends, nothing to distract them or make them feel better about themselves away from the bullying. Now it follows every bullied kid home as they go on facebook or twitter and find messages ridiculing them or distorted pictures or pictures that should have been private spread all over the internet. It no longer stays in the school or the community, it goes worldwide and will haunt them forever. That's why bullying has become such a major issue now. Its impacting not only their current lives but possibly their futures as well.
The problem students have today is being able to leave that torment at school. Students have integrated social media into their lives, they're never more than five feet from their cell phones or a computer. The bullies continue harass their victims through social media and through texting. The added benefit of anonymity on the internet only increases the likely of others joining in the bullying.
Case in point, the girl who recently committed suicide in Canada. She made a mistake providing a topless photo to some creeper on the internet. The photo was passed around to her school. She left one school but the bullying followed her, with people harassing her on facebook and spreading the photo to her new school. She got beaten up and left in a ditch because she went to spend time with a friend and his girlfriend took offense to that. She told her parents and they did everything they could to help, the school was powerless, hell the cops even knew about the picture did nothing. Even after the girl killed herself, her bullies continued to deride her on websites dedicated to her memory.
It took her death for something to be done about it with the asshole who circulated the picture being outed by Anonymous and the RCMP arresting and charging the people who posted comments that they were glad she was dead.
There have always been those kids who can't escape the bullying. It followed them home because they had no friends, nothing to distract them or make them feel better about themselves away from the bullying. Now it follows every bullied kid home as they go on facebook or twitter and find messages ridiculing them or distorted pictures or pictures that should have been private spread all over the internet. It no longer stays in the school or the community, it goes worldwide and will haunt them forever. That's why bullying has become such a major issue now. Its impacting not only their current lives but possibly their futures as well.
To all the people who are saying I had this happen to me, so I did this and then they left me alone and everything turned out fine.
Wouldn't you rather of not had to have dealt with it in the first place?
What would you have done if they didn't suddenly back down and they came back with even more force?
Wouldn't it be better that this sort of behaviour is completely unacceptable in society?
There is absolutely no circumstance that any form of bullying should be occurring at any school to anyone. If you're forced to go to school you should be in a safe environment and not have to deal with harassment for little reason other then there being some assholes who want to try to ruin your life. The idea that it's something that's just going to happen anyway is the completely wrong attitude when dealing with this and we should be looking at ways of not only allowing the victim to get help, but to stop people from bullying others to begin with.
I have seen and dealt with a lot of bullying over my schooling life and a lot of it has had lasting impressions on not only myself but on other people as well. For some people they become stronger with it, other people it can completely and utterly destroy them and the fact that this is allowed to occur in society is completely and utterly disgusting.
Wouldn't you rather of not had to have dealt with it in the first place?
What would you have done if they didn't suddenly back down and they came back with even more force?
Wouldn't it be better that this sort of behaviour is completely unacceptable in society?
There is absolutely no circumstance that any form of bullying should be occurring at any school to anyone. If you're forced to go to school you should be in a safe environment and not have to deal with harassment for little reason other then there being some assholes who want to try to ruin your life. The idea that it's something that's just going to happen anyway is the completely wrong attitude when dealing with this and we should be looking at ways of not only allowing the victim to get help, but to stop people from bullying others to begin with.
I have seen and dealt with a lot of bullying over my schooling life and a lot of it has had lasting impressions on not only myself but on other people as well. For some people they become stronger with it, other people it can completely and utterly destroy them and the fact that this is allowed to occur in society is completely and utterly disgusting.
Unfortunately there are a number of counterarguments to "just deal with it":
If you are outnumbered. This sort of person travels in packs. You can lift weights and train in karate for three years straight and you still will not win a fight against four guys who are your size or larger. Calling them out is just giving them another chance to hurt you.
If you are small, weak, or have a debilitating medical condition. A kid in my elementary school had leukemia. He was hairless from chemo, always weak and sick from treatments. The shitheads used to snatch his hat so he'd have to walk around bald. That kid wasn't going to beat anyone up. (In his case, every time the shitheads came near this kid the faculty used to fall on them like thunderbolts, but this wasn't a solution as he was still victimized regularly.)
If the abuse takes the form of ceaseless verbal harassment. There is no escape as your schedule is chosen for you. The shitheads are not breaking any rules, so there is nothing you can do within the rules to make it stop. Ignoring them isn't really a possibility when they're in close proximity to you for several hours a day. Telling them to stop just encourages them. If you make it clear you're not going to take it, i.e. knock them down and kick their teeth in, YOU have now crossed the line. YOU are going to take 100% of the flak. It won't matter what they did to deserve it, YOU are going to be blamed, because "hitting people is always wrong." Two years later YOU will be rejected from that college you want to go to because you have a history of violence. The shitheads, on the other hand, will get Band-Aids and a cookie.
I'm not saying there is no solution, I'm just saying "bring them to the yard for fisticuffs" won't work all the time. Congratulations OP on being big and strong enough to make it work, and having enemies who didn't turn you in. Not everyone is so lucky.
If you are outnumbered. This sort of person travels in packs. You can lift weights and train in karate for three years straight and you still will not win a fight against four guys who are your size or larger. Calling them out is just giving them another chance to hurt you.
If you are small, weak, or have a debilitating medical condition. A kid in my elementary school had leukemia. He was hairless from chemo, always weak and sick from treatments. The shitheads used to snatch his hat so he'd have to walk around bald. That kid wasn't going to beat anyone up. (In his case, every time the shitheads came near this kid the faculty used to fall on them like thunderbolts, but this wasn't a solution as he was still victimized regularly.)
If the abuse takes the form of ceaseless verbal harassment. There is no escape as your schedule is chosen for you. The shitheads are not breaking any rules, so there is nothing you can do within the rules to make it stop. Ignoring them isn't really a possibility when they're in close proximity to you for several hours a day. Telling them to stop just encourages them. If you make it clear you're not going to take it, i.e. knock them down and kick their teeth in, YOU have now crossed the line. YOU are going to take 100% of the flak. It won't matter what they did to deserve it, YOU are going to be blamed, because "hitting people is always wrong." Two years later YOU will be rejected from that college you want to go to because you have a history of violence. The shitheads, on the other hand, will get Band-Aids and a cookie.
I'm not saying there is no solution, I'm just saying "bring them to the yard for fisticuffs" won't work all the time. Congratulations OP on being big and strong enough to make it work, and having enemies who didn't turn you in. Not everyone is so lucky.
I'm with you. I'm not entirely comfortable with what we're raising our children to expect out of life these days. In my freshman and sophomore years of school, I was:
punched
beaten
kicked
spat on
choked
had my car vandalized
my family's house vandalized
my mother assaulted by my fellow students
death threats
verbally abused by students AND teachers
and told daily that the world would be a better place if I just killed myself
So, forgive me if I sound like I'm blaming the victims...but here's the thing. I endured all of this, and I DIDN'T kill myself. Because I knew it wasn't the answer. I am here today because I CHOOSE to be, not because someone saw to it. So the way I see it, people who commit suicide do so because they CHOOSE it, no one MAKES them kill themselves, just as no one MAKES me NOT kill myself.
In the end, is bullying right? No, of course not, it just is. It's a part of life. We can't coddle our children in a safety bubble of happiness for 20 years...then what's going to happen to them when they get into the REAL world?
I overcame my problems on my own. The summer of my junior year, I hit the gym and the weight room...hard. I came back to school and punched the first guy in the face who tried to grab me in way that I knew was going to lead to trouble. No one ever messed with me again at that school; and I had way more friends the last two years. It's not about the violence, yes violence is ALWAYS bad, but it's about confidence and self-worth. I didn't gain social status because I punched a guy in the face, I gained social status because I valued myself enough to not let anyone else harm me. When you value yourself, you attract people. Kids who get bullied NONSTOP get treated like that BECAUSE they just lie there and accept it, they don't stand up for themselves. Yes, parents, teachers, and even the police should get involved if shit gets bad, but there is no reason to kill yourself because people call you names.
I know this response could quite possibly make me look like a giant douchebag, but instead of focusing on these WASP sub-urban kids who get called names and do nothing but cry about it; let's turn our attention to kids in inner-city schools who GET SHOT AT just for being from a different neighborhood.
punched
beaten
kicked
spat on
choked
had my car vandalized
my family's house vandalized
my mother assaulted by my fellow students
death threats
verbally abused by students AND teachers
and told daily that the world would be a better place if I just killed myself
So, forgive me if I sound like I'm blaming the victims...but here's the thing. I endured all of this, and I DIDN'T kill myself. Because I knew it wasn't the answer. I am here today because I CHOOSE to be, not because someone saw to it. So the way I see it, people who commit suicide do so because they CHOOSE it, no one MAKES them kill themselves, just as no one MAKES me NOT kill myself.
In the end, is bullying right? No, of course not, it just is. It's a part of life. We can't coddle our children in a safety bubble of happiness for 20 years...then what's going to happen to them when they get into the REAL world?
I overcame my problems on my own. The summer of my junior year, I hit the gym and the weight room...hard. I came back to school and punched the first guy in the face who tried to grab me in way that I knew was going to lead to trouble. No one ever messed with me again at that school; and I had way more friends the last two years. It's not about the violence, yes violence is ALWAYS bad, but it's about confidence and self-worth. I didn't gain social status because I punched a guy in the face, I gained social status because I valued myself enough to not let anyone else harm me. When you value yourself, you attract people. Kids who get bullied NONSTOP get treated like that BECAUSE they just lie there and accept it, they don't stand up for themselves. Yes, parents, teachers, and even the police should get involved if shit gets bad, but there is no reason to kill yourself because people call you names.
I know this response could quite possibly make me look like a giant douchebag, but instead of focusing on these WASP sub-urban kids who get called names and do nothing but cry about it; let's turn our attention to kids in inner-city schools who GET SHOT AT just for being from a different neighborhood.
I'm up for people dealing with their own problems. Believe me, I'd be the first one to say "stand up to them". However, each person and situation has its limits. There are variables between each instance of bullying: bully/victim physical capability, bully/victim mental capabilities, victim punishment threshold, bully/victim psychological stability, bully motive, victim's personality, motives for not telling, types of fear, peer pressure, home environment, school environment, outlets, the list goes on forever. Each situation is not the same.seerbrum said:
Believe me when I say that I'm glad you made it out of your situation. It's great to see an example of one, who've stood up for themselves and made it out in the end. But the fact of the matter is, this should not exist in the first place. No one should be placed into a defensive position without reason. The repercussions of bullying have led to extreme situations in which the bullied decided they want to end their life or the lives of others. That is the point in which the mind is gone from reality and is searching for release any way it can.
It sickens me to see the victims of suicide caused by bullying so belittled by this "man up" mentality. Yeah the world isn't nice, and yes people need to stand up for themselves from time to time. But everyone's mind, will, and body are not equal. The authorities are there for the purpose of protecting the people. Those people were under circumstances that you don't understand because you do not know what thoughts were running through their mind and what their perspective of the situation was. They needed help and they did not get it. Now they are dead. We've been preaching this "man up" philosophy for so long and it's helped some, but you cannot ignore the rising number of suicides/homicides due to bullying.
Honestly...I think the BIGGEST problem is that most of the time, the teachers are NOT ALLOWED to physically intervene. If a kid is being accosted by 2 or 3 other kids, in my father's time, the male teachers would haul the offenders away by their shirt collars. Now, they have to stand there and let it happen because if they even TOUCH a student, they can get sued, fired, and arrested. That's the problem. The students are ALLOWED to beat up other students, but teachers are NOT ALLOWED to even grab or restrain students to PREVENT or STOP the physical bullying. When you have serious problems, you need to use serious measures to deter, prevent, or stop them.
The teachers need the AUTHORITY to intervene, and right now, they don't have it. There would be less bullying if the bullies knew that the teachers had the authorization to kick their ass if the need arose. And I would say that a student getting beaten up by a bunch of bigger kids just for the lulz, is a student in need.
The teachers need the AUTHORITY to intervene, and right now, they don't have it. There would be less bullying if the bullies knew that the teachers had the authorization to kick their ass if the need arose. And I would say that a student getting beaten up by a bunch of bigger kids just for the lulz, is a student in need.
Thanks, man. I appreciate that.Dwarfman said:
While no one's flamed me, I have gotten a few matches thrown my way...
I'm a big believer that if you're powerless to stop an adverse situation, the least you can do is learn from it and either use that knowledge next time or pass it on.
Are you my dad? Everytime a bullying store pops up on the news, he tells me an anecdote about how he was bullied as a kid. It ends with him saying "if you dont stop, someday you'll be all alone and I'll be there with a 2x4." I must have heard this story 500 times in my life and everytime I hear this, I know exactly why he was bullied.I-Protest-I said:
But seriously, my brother has a friend who is 6 foot something 300+ lbs, you arent going to hit the gym for a summer and kick that guys ass (Even though he is nice guy). We become parents and pay teachers money because supposedly adults are smarter than kids. Some kids need to "man up" and deal with their shit, others need help. If an adult can't tell the difference, they probably should not be working with kids. A good tip for dealing with life for anyone, is if someone tells you there is one way to deal with a problem, they are probably the source of the problem.
I think it should be noted that a boy at my school committed suicide roughly 24 hours ago due to the large amount bullying he received for no apparent reason. Though I didn't know him well a lot of my friends did.
I know I may get flamed for what I'm about to say but I do not support anti bullying, however, I am not pro bullying. I just feel like the argument is futile, you cant stop hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. That is only my opinion.
R.I.P Thomas.
I know I may get flamed for what I'm about to say but I do not support anti bullying, however, I am not pro bullying. I just feel like the argument is futile, you cant stop hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. That is only my opinion.
R.I.P Thomas.
Bullying is good. It encourages people who are behaving strangely or failing to develop social skills to do so. It's social Darwinism, being bullied because you are fat? Lose weight. Being bullied because you creep girls out? Start learning to pick girls who are actually interested in you. Bullied for being a slut? Stop spreading your legs for anyone who takes you out once. Bullied for being gay? Stop being so flamboyant.
And if you'd rather not change who you are, then fight back and earn your right to be different.
Society is not responsible for protecting you from mean people. Someone who is abnormal, bases their opinion of themselves on what other people think, is to weak to mount a defense, to stubborn to change, to unlikeable to get others to help, and to unintelligent to strike back verbally or with some sort of clever scheme deserves what they get: they were never going to contribute anything meaningful to society anyways.
Adapt or die.
And if you'd rather not change who you are, then fight back and earn your right to be different.
Society is not responsible for protecting you from mean people. Someone who is abnormal, bases their opinion of themselves on what other people think, is to weak to mount a defense, to stubborn to change, to unlikeable to get others to help, and to unintelligent to strike back verbally or with some sort of clever scheme deserves what they get: they were never going to contribute anything meaningful to society anyways.
Adapt or die.
Because certain traits (Being unintelligent, being morbidly obese, lacking any semblance of social skills) are traits that hurt both the individual and society. Hence the individual ought to work to change the traits. Social skills can be improved through practice, weight can be lost with determination and effort, and poor intelligence can be marginally increased with reading and math practice.Dijkstra said:
Changing these traits is not easy, so people need a hefty motivation to put in the massive amount of work required. That motivation comes in the form of peer pressure, in this discussion "bullying"
Really it's amazing to what lengths people will defend their "right" to have a personal flaw, despite it being entirely possible to work to overcome or conceal that flaw.
The only exception to this I will give is sexuality, as it isn't a choice nor is it something which can be worked to overcome.
Bullying is huge in the States, because they are a violent nation whose media and history are imbued with violence. As we speak, several countries are being bombarded by the US completely outside the law. Their freaking president has a kill list. The people actually cheer for state prisons being a place of rape and infernal punishment. And weapon used is pushed on people to make them safer (yes, really). So duh, you reap what you sow, from the cradle onward.
This is sort of a funny post. Of course the US has a history of violence.... every nation does.xdiesp said:
The US bombing nations and the President having a kill list? Probably has something to do with the people on that list being genocidal maniacs/members of groups which are nominally at war with the US. Bombing nations outside the law? I assume you mean the drone strikes, which are killing enemies of the United States who are being sheltered by countries who name themselves allies of the US...
EDIT: Ah, you are from Italy. That place that helped start World War II. Real peaceful history you have there.
I really don't know what to think about what our society should deal with bullying.I was bullied for a solid 8 years in elementary school. I rarely told anyone about but I didn't just take it, I did stand up for myself but it really was impossible when its more than one person. I don't get bullied anymore but it still affects me everyday, it took years to get over my fear of people and get past my bitter disposition. But for all the horrible things bullying did to me, it taught me a lot about people and life in general. It taught me that life isn't all fun and games, sometimes it will just shit on you and you have to deal with it. It taught me to deal with adversity and better appreciate the things that make life wonderful. Being bullied made me stronger in the end, even when I look back at the darkest days of my childhood, I know it helped shaped me into the person I am today.
Obviously there are the kids who didn't make it, my best friend threatened to kill himself from being bullied and needed therapy to recover and dozens of other kids actually commit suicide. It's a tradegy and maybe kids do need more help but many of the laws and methods advocated today are too extreme and I believe ineffective.
Obviously there are the kids who didn't make it, my best friend threatened to kill himself from being bullied and needed therapy to recover and dozens of other kids actually commit suicide. It's a tradegy and maybe kids do need more help but many of the laws and methods advocated today are too extreme and I believe ineffective.
I went to a lecture once (not sure if it's the right word here but bear with me) held by a father, his wife and their two daughters who where the founders of a anti-bullying organisation called "dare be yourself". Their younges daugther hanged herself after beeing bullied, and they put a lot of effort into helping people realise what bullying is and how to deal with it from a emotional perspective to help young students.
This girl had help, from techers, but they did too little, i.e they said "now children, apologize to eachother".
She had help from family, but eventually the bullying outweighted the support.
She told the bullies to leave her alone after they started to slander her with words like whore and similar, at wich point they beat her up.
She was supported by a member of "Friends", an anti bullying group that sends out representatives to help bully victims. This representative then cornered her in a bathroom and sexually assulted her.
My point is, getting help is sometimes not enough, standing up is sometimes not enough, and sometimes you can't even trust the people who are there to help you. To say that you need to "deal with it", "man up" or similar comments is not just disrespectful, it's also one of the worst things you can say to someone who's already in a position where they feel like the world is against them.
One main problem, in my opinion, is that teachers are not taught how to handle situations like this. Someone made a comment about how they are afraid of getting sued or fired, well that's not how it works! A teacher is expected, even supposed to help a bully victim, but the truth is that teachers are just as vulnerable to bullying as the students.
I wish this was a swedish forum, then I could suggest that you'd see "Henrik is a dork", a play/lecture where Henrik tells the audience about his childhood and the bullying he endured and how he got through it. I wish people could see it, it really points towards bullies and says "there, right there, is the problem and what it causes" as well as giving those who have been through it a sense of familiarity and hope.
This girl had help, from techers, but they did too little, i.e they said "now children, apologize to eachother".
She had help from family, but eventually the bullying outweighted the support.
She told the bullies to leave her alone after they started to slander her with words like whore and similar, at wich point they beat her up.
She was supported by a member of "Friends", an anti bullying group that sends out representatives to help bully victims. This representative then cornered her in a bathroom and sexually assulted her.
My point is, getting help is sometimes not enough, standing up is sometimes not enough, and sometimes you can't even trust the people who are there to help you. To say that you need to "deal with it", "man up" or similar comments is not just disrespectful, it's also one of the worst things you can say to someone who's already in a position where they feel like the world is against them.
One main problem, in my opinion, is that teachers are not taught how to handle situations like this. Someone made a comment about how they are afraid of getting sued or fired, well that's not how it works! A teacher is expected, even supposed to help a bully victim, but the truth is that teachers are just as vulnerable to bullying as the students.
I wish this was a swedish forum, then I could suggest that you'd see "Henrik is a dork", a play/lecture where Henrik tells the audience about his childhood and the bullying he endured and how he got through it. I wish people could see it, it really points towards bullies and says "there, right there, is the problem and what it causes" as well as giving those who have been through it a sense of familiarity and hope.