Buy used? Can't complain.

[MasochisticAvenger]

Anyone besides me starting to feel like this thread should be locked. It's gotten to the point where the exact same arguments are getting repeated over and over.

Anyway amigos, new Extra Credits is out so I'm off. Later.

 

[Xanthious]

Here allow me to take a big runny shit all over the OPs initial argument and say that developers have no bloody way of knowing for certain who bought the game in what state. So arguing that used buyers have no right to complain is simply pointless at best and at worst is ignorant and extremely poorly thought out.

Beyond all that though the dirty little secret opponents of Gamestop will never admit is publishers needs Gamestop to sell their games new way more than Gamestop needs to sell new games. If you look at the percentage of new games that get bought at Gamestop specifically the figure is obscenely high. If Gamestop pulled new games off their shelves the publishers would feel a much bigger hit than Gamestop would. So arguing that places like Gamestop give nothing back to developers is simply disingenuous as Gamestop moves massive amounts of their products through their stores on a daily basis.

 

[surg3n]

Can I ask - has anyone here actually succesfully provided feedback, like sent an email and gotten a response? <From a commercial game developer/publisher>

Personally, I don't think developers want feedback after a game is released. They might look at feedback when preparing for a sequel, but really developers don't care if you like the game they just finished, as long as you bought it. There are exceptions, but those exceptions are so rare that they are practically smothered by the rest. I'm an indi developer, and truthfully I couldn't give a monkeys fart what people think of the game once it's released - I value feedback while developing, not after the event. In most cases, the developers are probably sick to death of the game by the time it's released - all the feedback that they have to listen to has been dealt with, anything on top of that is just an annoyance. Some feedback is downright painful to read, not because of scathing comments or anything, but because some people start constructing opinions before they can construct a freakin sentence. Even if your feedback is well written, it's still in a pile with all the mouth-breathers crayon rants. I think people would be better off making youtube videos of complaints, glitches, bugs etc - because there's more chance of being noticed, besides showing the bug etc in effect is much more useful to developers. Thing is, it kinda makes the game look worse, even if the issue is minor - so those would be the first issues to be dealt with, the issues bringing the game down in the eyes of youtubers.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Sorry I am buying a legal product and have every right to complain if its bad, then again these days I make sure I spend as less I can on games because they have become the great disposable content of the times.

Your argument only works when you do not buy the product.

 

[lacktheknack]

BTW, ever hear of Capitalism? Look it up.

This is NOT a valid argument. If it is, then I could use this exact argument in every anti-EA thread.

 

[Magnicon]

snip

It disgusts me how blindly and ignorantly you have your head up the ass of the gaming corporations.

Anyone who has fully researched how the used game industry actually does or does not effect the gaming industry, and isn't a "right fighter", will likely come to the obvious realization that it has no negative effect, and never has.

 

[Vivi22]

Yup, they did. And you didn't pay them for the product, your money went to Gamestop and stayed at Gamestop.

The creators of that game saw no money from that sale.

Which means you didn't support them, you supported the used game store.

You still paid money to buy the game, expended valuable free time to play it, and could have benefited the company with positive word of mouth if the game were actually good.

So yeah, you have as much right to complain about a bad game as anyone else, if only because people should be aware of any problems with it, and buying it used does not make your opinion less valid.

 

[Phishfood]

Very much so, but you can't do it with a retail DVD. Thats why it cost us £100.

So your rationale as to why Blockbuster and libraries don't count, but Gamestop does, is that you (a person who doesn't own a blockbuster or a library I'm presuming), rented a DVD to put on a paid showing of, and it cost more than buying the DVD. Well played sir, well played.

What? that £100 went back to the (in this case) studio. Blockbuster pay the publishers/studios a large ammount of money to rent out their DVDs and games. Therefore, in the context of "giving money to the people who made the product" they do indeed help. Used sales however do not give anything back to the people who made the game as has been discussed to death.

Like I say, even the used car argument doesn't quite tie up - since cars need spare parts that (at least sometimes) come from the original manufacturer, meaning a used car sale still makes them money. Media is an odd industry, they are selling a product that requires just as much effort as any other product however the product is intangible. It needs no spare parts, it has no accessories or consumables. I can sort of understand why publishers are going a little bit crazy over this sort of thing. It doesn't excuse them of treating customers like dicks, but I can see where they are coming from.

 

[Spandexpanda]

Here's the difference. One of them is a FUCKING CAR.

I fail to see the difference. BMW don't schedule press conferences to discuss how people buying their cars second hand is causing them to implement a biometric key that only allows the first owner to drive it.

 

[cgaWolf]

Can I ask - has anyone here actually succesfully provided feedback, like sent an email and gotten a response? <From a commercial game developer/publisher>

All the time, negative & positive. I believe aimed feedback (mail/forms) has a higher chance to be heard than random ranting/flaming on a forum. Worst case, i spent 5 minutes & nothing happens, but i can rationalize those 5 minutes easily. That said, whether you make a difference is harder to discern.

Making a significant difference when coming from a forum type community - rising above the general hubub into something noticeable by devs & community managers - requires a MASSIVE investment in time. My claim to e-fame (that no one remembers anymore ) is the creation of Assassinette's "Newbie Rogue Pointers" threads on WoW EU forums, and supporting them without moderator tools from end of Vanilla to beginning of Cataclysm.

While i actually *know* they made a (teeny-tiny) difference at company level [1.5m total views over its different incarnations, 2 front page mentions, blue asking for updates, and managing to get a question in during a devchat], the reality of those threads was hundreds of hours spent in keeping an eye on theorycraft, doublechecking results, statistical analysis of combatlogs, investigating anomalies, arguing & counterarguing in the thread, trying to find a middle ground between newcomers and the hardcore, while maintaining a high profile on the rogue forums in general to lend my words weight.
The reality is that even with all that investment, it would have been impossible if not for a dozen other players who galvanized around the thread and helped support it; and that keeping a high profile on a forum is at times risky, even if it's for a good cause (my protest against Hunger for Bloods 30s refresh time & its soundbite netted me http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/178/bannedagainft5.jpg/ ). Another way i know i made a difference is that - by all objective standards - i should have eaten a perma-ban somewhere along the way, but only got a suspension ^_^

 

[GoldenRaz]

So buying used games gives THE GAMES INDUSTRY! a legitimate reason to throw a temper tantrum and ignore any complaints about their games' faults? Ok, I can see how one might have that opinion. Good for you. And you're right that if you find the condition of your game lacking (scratched disk or whatever) then yes, the game store (when did everyone start buying used games at GameStop and nowhere else?) should be the ones you complain to.

Other than that, I really don't see your point. Does me buying a game used make my subsequent experience of playing it "not worthy" or somehow discredit the very existance of that experience? Does me buying used somehow make my opinion of it immediately inferior to the point of not even being worth the energy of forming it? If so, that's just silly. How I acquired the game doesn't sully my opinion of it. I'm still quite able to form an opinion of it, and that opinion weighs about as heavily as anyone else's.

Really, that was so passive aggressive that I half expected the OP to end with a "STFU, bitches". Was this supposed to make me buy every game brand, spanking new by trying to guilt trip and bully me to change my way of thinking? If so, better luck next time 'cause that didn't bite.

 

[everythingbeeps]

Here's the difference. One of them is a FUCKING CAR.

I fail to see the difference. BMW don't schedule press conferences to discuss how people buying their cars second hand is causing them to implement a biometric key that only allows the first owner to drive it.

People buy cars used to save thousands of dollars.

Cheapskates buy video games used to save like ten bucks.

There's a huge difference. They're different products that cost different amounts of money, and one of them is important, and the other is a fucking toy.

You aren't going to get anywhere comparing video games to cars. NOWHERE.

 

[Hunt3r_of_3vil]

Wait, I have one question to make sure I'm keeping up here.

> Hasn't the developer already been paid for each and every copy of a game that is on a shelf in a store stockroom or in the possession of anyone who has visited a retailer or used an online service?

I mean, really, I'm 99% sure that the retailers are not getting these things for free, with the hopes the publishers will be paid back in the future. If that is the case, they're making money off titles that haven't even sold yet.

 

[kwydjebo]

Okay a few things to the original argument (You have no right to complain if you buy used.), and skipped a few pages of posts here so if this has already been said, so be it.

1) THIS IS AMERICA!!! And as an American (well North AMerican in my case) I have the god given right to complain, ***** and moan about whatever I please. You have the right to Ignore me. If I buy a game New, used, got it as a gift, or didn't buy it at all (went to a friends place and played it there), I have a right to complain about what I experienced. I also have the right to form an opinion based on watching a youtube video and then Yahtzee's review....that opinion would likely be termed "Second hand" or "Ill-informed", but its my right to be that way, and to complain thusly. I therefore complain that the little goth girl shows up way too much in Bioshock, and the game would be way better without her! (I've never played it so take it for what its worth)
Conversely, you, and others have the right to ignore me completely.

Ain't freedom grand?

2) The Game developer DOES NOT HAVE TO listen to customer. Once a game is released, they are well within their rights to say "That's it, don't call us, we be done"
Now for future customers they might want to garner some goodwill by, you know, making current ones happy. THis is the internet age, and word travels fast when a company is known for a shoddy product and even worse after market support.
AND here's a crazy idea. If a Developer makes a game, gets feedback, maybe they can use said feedback and MAKE IMPROVMENTS TO FUTURE GAMES! User input can (and should) be very important to software development. Knowing what your end users want and like and don't like can assist in making software BETTER, and thus more appealing for future users.


3) GAME COMPANIES SEE NO MONEY FROM USED SALES. Not always.
True if I buy Fallout 3 used (as I did) Bethesda sees not one red cent. But when I enjoy the game and buy the DLCs, or am encouraged to buy Fallout New Vegas as soon as it comes out, isn't that a residual sale that I likely wouldn't have made if I hadn't rolled the dice on 20 bucks for a used game (And actually My Fallout 3 was stolen long before I finished it so I bought the GotY edition new, but that's an odd case).

4) Why are Used games so different than used other things? Houses, Cars, comic books....Spider man's first appearance was in a 12 cent comic, I don't hear a lot of crying about how poor marvel gets nothing when someone buys it now for 20 grand. Some cars are worth far more now than they were originally, do we lament for poor Ford? And more importantly if you don't buy a Ford, are you no longer entitled to say you think a particular model looks stupid? For that matter, and going by this logic, when the Wii came out, you had no right to complain about the dumb name unless you bought it?

5) As a consumer I pay goods and services a fair market value. I like sales, but failing that I am willing to accept the Market's wisdom in setting a price. The understanding, of course, is that when I, and many other gamers pay $x for a game, some of that cost is going to pay for the original development, cost of the physical packaging and game disc, box art, shipping to the store, store's overhead, etc...and in the end, hopefully some profit for the devs. Now if I buy a direct download, where there is NO physical cost, and presumably far less overhead cost, why do I pay the same, or (as I've heard people say) more?
As well, if I buy Used, the devs may not see profit from MY purchase, but they got profit from the original purchase, which I have now payed a portion of, think of it not as buying used, but as a Time Share!

 

[Vegosiux]

Cheapskates buy video games used to save like ten bucks.

I'm insulted by that notion and I don't even buy used games! (I buy them when they're discounted, does that make me a cheapskate too then?)

You know to some people 10 bucks is a great deal of money what with lack of disposable income.

 

[Robert Ewing]

With used games I think the argument of 'I wouldn't have bought it anyway' rings ever so true.

For example, no fucking way would I ever pay the £40 for an annual sports game like FIFA from EA. Screw that, i get it from a used game dealer. And give their chain a helping hand instead of fueling that exact same shit churned out each year.

 

[everythingbeeps]

Cheapskates buy video games used to save like ten bucks.

I'm insulted by that notion and I don't even buy used games! (I buy them when they're discounted, does that make me a cheapskate too then?)

You know to some people 10 bucks is a great deal of money what with lack of disposable income.

Yep, I surely do. And I'd say that if 10 bucks is that big a deal to them, they have other shit to worry about besides video games.

 

[Vegosiux]

Cheapskates buy video games used to save like ten bucks.

I'm insulted by that notion and I don't even buy used games! (I buy them when they're discounted, does that make me a cheapskate too then?)

You know to some people 10 bucks is a great deal of money what with lack of disposable income.

Yep, I surely do. And I'd say that if 10 bucks is that big a deal to them, they have other shit to worry about besides video games.

Really now? What kind of shit, for example? Is this the part where generalizations start (as they usually do) how lack of disposable income somehow equals being a lazy ass who needs to get a job? Do we want to go down that road then?

Because you know, I would say that if they complain about video games, that means they likely have that other shit barely covered, because if they didn't, they wouldn't be complaining about videogames.

To say nothing on the fact that seeing how you can keep your expenditures to a minimum is the most rational thing to do, regardless of what your income is in the first place. What's the saying? A penny saved is a penny earned?

 

[everythingbeeps]

Cheapskates buy video games used to save like ten bucks.

I'm insulted by that notion and I don't even buy used games! (I buy them when they're discounted, does that make me a cheapskate too then?)

You know to some people 10 bucks is a great deal of money what with lack of disposable income.

Yep, I surely do. And I'd say that if 10 bucks is that big a deal to them, they have other shit to worry about besides video games.

Really now? What kind of shit, for example? Is this the part where generalizations start (as they usually do) how lack of disposable income somehow equals being a lazy ass who needs to get a job? Do we want to go down that road then?

Because you know, I would say that if they complain about video games, that means they likely have that other shit barely covered, because if they didn't, they wouldn't be complaining about videogames.

To say nothing on the fact that seeing how you can keep your expenditures to a minimum is the most rational thing to do, regardless of what your income is in the first place. What's the saying? A penny saved is a penny earned?

No, this is the part where you completely (possibly even deliberately!) misrepresent my point in order to start a fight about something else entirely.

My point was simple: if you're that hard up for ten bucks, maybe you have other priorities than video games. And maybe you should be more careful about which ones you buy. If you're bitching about a video game, it's because you weren't careful enough before buying it. People with plenty of disposable income can afford to buy Dragon Age 2 without researching it enough to discover that it's kind of a piece of shit.

People who are scraping pennies together shouldn't buy compulsively buying games they aren't absolutely certain they want.

 

[Vegosiux]

My point was simple: if you're that hard up for ten bucks, maybe you have other priorities than video games. And maybe you should be more careful about which ones you buy. If you're bitching about a video game, it's because you weren't careful enough before buying it. People with plenty of disposable income can afford to buy Dragon Age 2 without researching it enough to discover that it's kind of a piece of shit.

People who are scraping pennies together shouldn't buy compulsively buying games they aren't absolutely certain they want.

Well, thing is, if you have to work hard to break even, then you're not likely to have much time and/or energy to go into "research". So you're going to see what's advertised, and what has the most hype associated.

Now, if it's a new release, there's also the problem of not knowing the game isn't going to deliver, because, well, it hasn't been released yet. There's no way you could have known. But it was still hyped. See, Christmas releases. So much hype, so much publishers telling us "This is what you need, nay, this is what you crave". Then the game turns out to be a flop. Well, naturally you're going to be miffed if you spent a large chunk of your disposable income to get it for your kid.

I'm starting to stray here, but even with miserable income, people want (and need) to just treat themselves (and others) sometimes. And well, if they get screwed on that, they're more likely to go "Fine then.".

Anyway, as I said earlier, if I think the game is worth what I paid for it, I'll be keeping it, and as someone else said, the fact that the first owner of a used game decided to get rid of it is a complaint in and of itself.

PS: No, not deliberately, just tainted judgement from past experience.