Can a lightsaber cut through adamantium??

Slackboy2007

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The problem with this seems to be that we can explain a bit about the physics of lightsabres based on first principles (more on this later), but no-one (that I know of) has ever explained exactly how adamantium is unmeltable/indestructable/unreshapable (apart from when Magneto decides to rip it from Wolverine's body).

I'm going to try to work this out using Universe Prime physics (ie. this one, according to DC comics...). Here goes:


Lightsabres (according to my thinking, I haven't looked any of this stuff up yet) must have three main components:

1. An extremely powerful but small heat source.
2. An appropriate substance (possibly a noble gas like neon) that can be released from the end and then heated by the above heat source into a plasma.
3. A highly localised electromagnetic field generator for keeping the plasma in a blade shape.

Given that phases go as:

solid -> liquid -> gas -> plasma

with temperature, then think of a plasma as being like a gas. This means that when lightsabres clash, it's not the plasmas bouncing off each other (as they would just pass straight through each other), but the highly localised electromagnetic fields bouncing off each other instead. This means that you should be able to hit lightsabres against each other even if their heat sources weren't working (so you wouldn't be able to see each blade, but you'd feel the collision of the fields).

Question then is, what would happen if you tried to shove a non-plasma-working lightsabre through a normal metal? In other words, would the field of the sabre (made by it's internal generator) be stronger than the intrinsic electric field of the metal (the one that's keeping it together in the first place)? Or in other other words, would the field of the sabre be able to push the metal atoms apart? I don't think it would since the intrinsic field of the metal must be huge compared to the artificial field. But I guess this is an area where we can make up whatever technology we want, so maybe it can be allowed.

If we go by the argument that adamantium's atoms (I'm assuming it's an alloy and consists of more than one type of atom) cannot be pushed apart by anything (given that it is 'indestructable'), then the non-plasma-working sabre could not generate a field high enough to do this.

But if it's possible for Magneto's magnetic field to move adamantium's atoms apart, then the sabre could go through.

But then again, if we only assume that Magneto's field is only moving the atoms around (so each one is still next to it's nearest neighbour) and not apart then the sabre could not go through.

But then again again, to be able to reshape the metal, you'd have to re-arrange the nearest neighbours. So if Magneto can reshape adamantium using a customised electomagnetic field, then the (ridiculously high) field of the sabre should be able to push them apart too.

Given that the field would have to be pretty strong to even keep the plasma in the right shape, I'm going to assume that it's of the same order as Magneto's powers, so it can push the nuclei apart.

So I'm going with:

Adamantium 0 - (non-plasma working) light sabre 1.
(assuming it's the type of adamantium that Magneto can reshape, if it's not then this round goes to the adamantium)


Now to add in the plasma (heating) part:

A plasma: A substance that has been heated past the gas phase to the point where the electrons, which normally orbit their respective nuclei, are able to move around the plasma's container freely.

A metal: A lattice of nuclei which each vibrate around a mean position, with a 'sea' (or plasma?) of electrons moving freely around inbetween them.

When you heat a metal you're making the nuclei vibrate more around their mean positions, and the melting point is when the vibrations are so large the the nuclei can move away from their nearest neighbours (so does that mean that a melting metal is technically a plasma? Never thought about it like that but it makes sense) thus destroying the lattice structure.

If we assume that adamantium doesn't have melting point, then this would mean that 'somehow' the atoms are able to be heated without the vibrations (movements away from the centre or mean point) becoming any bigger. Hence they always stay next to their nearest neighbours, and hence the heat would make no difference.

(As an aside, maybe you could explain this by saying that the heating process was 'somehow' exciting some other energy modes than the position ones. For example you could say that the heat was causing the adamantium nuclei to rotate around more, rather than move back-and-forth more. If you wanted to be really silly you could argue that adamantium nuclei have hyper-dimensional properties meaning that the heat does make them vibrate more, but in a dimension that we can't see. What the hell, why not say that this other dimension is time, and say that adamantium is the reverse-time version of itself much like electron are backwards-moving-in-time positrons?)

So that seems to be:

Adamantium 1 - Light-sabre 0
(on just the heating side of things.)

But the lightsabre wins overall since it just needs the electromagnetic field to do the work, and the hot plasma is just a spectator. (Again though, if it's adamantium that Magneto can't reshape then the adamantium wins overall).



And, to summarise, this is based on two main arguments:

1. The electromagnetic field of the sabre would have to be ridiculously high to be able to push apart the nuclei of a normal metal, but since Magneto can generate the kind of field that is strong enough to do this for adamantium, we can assume that the light-sabre can too.

2. The heating from the heat source into the plasma would have no effect on the vibrational positions of the adamantium nuclei, hence no melting could take place.

The thing about point 2 is that it would mean that adamantium would have a maximum possible temperature. In that once you reached the (invented by me) vibrational limit, it wouldn't be able to get any hotter, and the energy would have to go into one of the other modes (or other dimensions if you like that kind of thing).

Maybe you could say that the heat energy 'somehow' just goes into the electron sea, but this would mean that adamantium would then give off electromagnetic energy (eg light, infrared, microwaves, gamma rays, etc) as you heated it (as electrons give off em radiation as they move down from higher energy levels).

At a push you could say that the vibrational movement does become massive, but by some weird fluke this doesn't lead to lattice falling apart (as in it somehow vibrates between several different lattice shapes instead of the the nuclei being able to move freely). I guess this would mean that things would get 'interesting' when you throw in the electromagnetic field too, so from these assumptions you could say that the heat would help the blade to go through the adamantium.



Have I just accidentally added to the canon on how adamantium physics works? If so: yay me.
 

WolfThomas

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nomad240 said:
don't get me wrong I know it's silly.. it's VERY silly hence why I started the whole W40k bit with a good old fashion Tee hee. and I still don't fully understand how they couldcoat jut the bones? they just showed a bunch of needles plugging into him. at first I thoguht that they put the needles into the bone and basically filled that but as previously stated by a couple of people his bones are covered? not replaced or what ever how could you account for controlling the adamantium as it was injected into him? to well not cover the cartilege?( sp?) and all that other stuff that let's us do the robot?
Hmm, you now I'm not actually sure, I think it's sort of a replaced/merged thing rather than simply coating, as for the ends of the bones they could have removed and then replaced the bone. But hey it's fiction so whatever.

Slackboy2007 said:
1. The electromagnetic field of the sabre would have to be ridiculously high to be able to push apart the nuclei of a normal metal, but since Magneto can generate the kind of field that is strong enough to do this for adamantium, we can assume that the light-sabre can too.
Magneto had enough power and finese to manage to pull a giant metal "space bullet" big enough to destroy the earth from millions of light years away and stop it just in time, so that they could rescue Kitty Pryde trapped in it. I don't think a portable forcefield is in anyway comparable to him.

That said Marvel keeps flip-floping over what made up metals are magnetic, more recently I don't think Wolverine's new adamantiums is.

LiftYourSkinnyFists said:
You forget light sabers aren't real so no it can't cut through anything.
And Adamantium is...?
 

Deadcyde

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cortosis causes a lightsaber to short out...

cortosis weave bleeds enough of the energy off so the material it's alloyed with can resist the energy. (beskar is only resistant, not lightsaber proof. same as the quicksilver stuff that the vibroshield (in the book shatterpoint) is made of.)

and my superconductor theory is still subject to thermodynamics so the adamantium would heat up eventually and if you had a lightsaber on it long enough it would make the adamantium completely melt.. the whole skeleton (coating) would melt at once due to the energy being spread through it evenly.

now it's quite possible that adamantium owes it's invincibility because it bleeds the energy off into another dimension. so that would make it still a no

however due to the fantastic value of both of these items it's impossible to tell unless the authors of each write a more indepth description (or we manages to create them), we would never truly know so i guess we can only assume it won't cut, as like someone else wrote its unstoppable force meets immovable object.
 

Deadcyde

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incal11 said:
If there was a "nerdiest topic" competition on the escapist, this one would be a contender.
Funny reading.
I'll spell this out for you so you don't strain yourself.

you're on the internet +1 nerd
you're in a forum +10 nerd
you've come into a forum with the title "can a lightsaber cut through adamantium" +100 nerd
you call people on that forum nerdy due to what they are discussing even though well aware of the subject matter +50 nerd +100 troll

nerd levels:

if you scored 0 - you are a caveman, technology for you is the flame and a pointy stick, possible career suggestions are; George W. Bush, Amish

if you scored 1 to 10 - you are an old fashioned person, someone who prefers grammophone over ipod. this isn't a bad thing but it also means you have no friends because you can't use a telephone. possible career suggestions; antique dealer, murderer in alfred hitchcock movie, mormon.

if you scored 10 - 20 - average person. the internet is for porn and you might have an iphone/pod/pad. however you probably use tech support lines and actually find them helpful. possible career suggestion; fast food attendant, reality tv star.

if you scored 20+ - you are a nerd, you probably don't get laid often, but you have the honor of drawing down more power for your graphics card then a defibrillator. you possibly have more consoles then friends, but at least you know you're smarter then most people within high powered rifle range. possible career suggestions; evil mastermind, nobel prize winner.

addendum: troll points

if you scored 1+ - you are a troll. the type of person goes onto forums to point out how nerdy people are, you critic things that you have no idea about, and often are so megalomanical as to think that if everyone were like you the world wouldn't suck so badly however whenever you do meet someone like yourself you tend to enter flame wars to the point you both cry yourselves to sleep at night and post youtube videos threatening bodily harm to each other. And when you're not actively making other peoples lives suck you are most likely masturbating over 4chan pictures. possible career suggestions; feminine hygiene product used to flush out their groin, suicide, scientologist.

now taking what you said into account, what do you think you scored?

ps.

this started out as me going don't you think it's lame that you're coming into a forum thread titled "can a lightsaber cut through adamantium" and calling it a nerdy discussion when you could have easily just not come into it, but i been watching zero punctuation so i decided to zazz it up a little.
 

Sovvolf

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Well, if we're going to be completely hypothetical here I'd say that I find the notion of a superconductive material to be A LOT more believable than a "lightsaber".
While I imagine, about 6/7 after the comment was posted, the last thing you'd want to see is another reply to it. Specially with the amount of yelling I imagine you've probably received over this statement already, I do have something to add. I read in a computer game magazine a good while ago (I'm talking original Xbox time) an article that answered video games and move myths, they went to experts to get an answer on them. The whole lightsabre thing came up and apparently its plausible to create a lightsabre though it would be radically different from the type portrayed in the Starwars movies.

While my memory is a little fuzzy on it (got to have been at least 6/8 years since I read the article) apparently you wouldn't be able to travel far with it as it would have to be hooked up to an extremely large power source in order to power it. It would make a tremendous amount of noise and you'd not be able to have lightsabre duels as they would stop when the clashed... They'd just keep going. I can't remember what the theory was behind being able to create one though, if I could find that magazine out I'd tell you but I doubt I still have it.

So I guess a lightsabre is plausible, however not in the way they are predicted. Hey maybe in a great distance in the future they'll find some sort of material that works like a lightsabre in the movies and it won't need to be hooked up into a machine but until then... Nope.

As for the argument it self? Well the results would probably be the same as that of an unstoppable force hitting and immovable object... It would just phase through.
 

Amaury_games

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Sorry, I didn't read most of the comments, but I think no one has said this before:

You know Adamantium is NOT indestructible, right? There's another substance (I think is a kind of metal) in Marvel Universe that can cut almost anything: Vibranium, or anti-metal. This substance can rip almost anything apart, I think. Plus, there's the substance that makes the Muramasa Sword, that Wolverine got from some Japanese guy I can't remember the name now. By the way, I'm from Brazil, so I don't know if there was any changes to these fiction facts during the last year (since I think USA comics takes about a year or more to reach Brazil).

I was certain that a lightsaber could cut through adamantium like butter, as it does with whatever solid object it touches, since it's pure concentrated energy. Then, Deadcyde brought up that Adamantium is one of the, if not THE best superconductor there is on fiction facts (as I understood), and all that knowledge about how concentrated energy cuts through solid objects. Now, I doubt my conviction, but I can still see a lightsaber cutting through Wolverine's bones without much problem. I guess lasers wouldn't work against superconductors as well, then?
 

Amaury_games

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Reed Spacer said:
Dude.

Light sabers could cut through Chuck Norris.
But never through his roundhouse. :p
And don't tick him off, man... Remember that Chuck Norris has been to Mars... and that's why there is no longer life there. XD
 

incal11

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Deadcyde said:
this started out as me going don't you think it's lame that you're coming into a forum thread titled "can a lightsaber cut through adamantium" and calling it a nerdy discussion when you could have easily just not come into it, but i been watching zero punctuation so i decided to zazz it up a little.
I said this was funny in a friendly way, I was just being silly.
If I was a troll though, you would have made my day :p
 

Krion_Vark

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Sam_Winchester said:
This question has bugged me ever since I heard it on the RoosterTeeth Drunk Tank Podcast (for those of you who don't know what that is, go download it for free from iTunes). In truth, I believe it absolutely could do it, it would just be a long time to do it, like the adamantium would be fighting with the lightsaber.

What do you think happens?
What are Vibroblades made from? If they are made out of Adamantium then no Light Sabers can't cut through it.
 

G1eet

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Sam_Winchester said:
But could a Star Destroyer beat the Enterprise? I'm just glad you didn't bring up laser tag or Munchee Cheese.

On topic: it depends on how the lightsaber physically cuts. Does it slice at the atomic level through some force unknown to us, or is it pretty much just a plasma torch that uses superintense heat to do it?

I don't know; I don't read EU. I assume it would.
 

Nieroshai

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Blights said:
Well, since a Lightsaber is more related to light (Duh), yeah, I don't think any physical substance could really block/hinder it even slightly, considering that it's just pure energy, rather than it having a physical form.
"Lightsaber" is a misnomer based on the fact that the blade glows. A better name would be "plasma sword" and it would cut because anything that passes through the magnetic bubble over the blade would be subject to intense heat. Of course, no idea how the magnetic field prevents heat from escaping the bubble as well, or how a magnet that strong would affect any vehicle the jedi might ride.
 

Nieroshai

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G1eet said:
Sam_Winchester said:
But could a Star Destroyer beat the Enterprise? I'm just glad you didn't bring up laser tag or Munchee Cheese.

On topic: it depends on how the lightsaber physically cuts. Does it slice at the atomic level through some force unknown to us, or is it pretty much just a plasma torch that uses superintense heat to do it?

I don't know; I don't read EU. I assume it would.
Plasma torch in a feedback loop. Don't ask why the magnet doesn't fry every piece of electronics the jedi stands next to though, no idea.
 

Nieroshai

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Krion_Vark said:
Sam_Winchester said:
This question has bugged me ever since I heard it on the RoosterTeeth Drunk Tank Podcast (for those of you who don't know what that is, go download it for free from iTunes). In truth, I believe it absolutely could do it, it would just be a long time to do it, like the adamantium would be fighting with the lightsaber.

What do you think happens?
What are Vibroblades made from? If they are made out of Adamantium then no Light Sabers can't cut through it.
Either durasteel, or in the case of the Sith pre-republic, some metal with special properties that repels the magnetic bubble of the saber blade. They don't try too hard to explain.