Can Meat Eaters be Easy to Offend?

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Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
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MishaK said:
Why do you insist on grouping "All grazing" together instead of discussing the very different elements of it independently?
|Because it's not independant. In Australia, dairy cattle grazing is responsible for far greater emissions.
Lightknight said:
Well, this is more specific information on causes of soil degradation as well as facts that grazing with correct soil treatment can make the soil better than before.

So I just want to make perfectly clear that not only is dairy farming less severe on the environment than beef farming, which the poster still doesn't accept despite the volumes of evidence, and to show that in a lot of places it isn't even the worst offender of soil degradation. In the US I would be more justified in saying that we need to stop growing food than the poster is in saying we need to stop grazing since agriculture is 66% of the degradation here.

Regardless, it has been beneficial to my own understanding to be able to go out and actually research these facts. So even if I'm not making any headway in the discussion I am still learning.
Because agriculture feeds more people. That modern cropping techniques can actively fight desertification. Or did you fail to read that Cambridge study again? Don't give me garbage that you're 'willing to research' if you can't be bothered to read a 30 page report on how to improve soil and combat desertification. Hint, it has to do something with crops and plant growth ...

If overgrazing is the largest problem in the world for soil degradation, then why do you pretend to still have an argument? Cut down livestock numbers, cut down grazing. Why are you arguing my point for me? Also, dairy cattle is not less severe on the environment. Because there are many environments that they are responsible for so much land loss by capita of head. By head of cattle, dairy cattle are worse than beef cattle in Australia, as beef cattle sometimes range on lands as low as 1 beast per 50 hectares ... Dairy cattle do not have that ranging space. Requiring huge amounts of soil treatment to repair the damages.

Dairy cattle need good land. Good land is not a universally shared condition. Pretty shitty land is a far more universal condition. Land that would be better served and serving by crops and orchards .... which would require less fertiliser.

So no you have yet to prove that their impact is 'minor' ... after all, we need to use a third of fertilisers to maintain a measly 1.9M dairy cattle. How is that 'minor'? And the thing is, you won't get better results than Australia in prime locations of the world where food security will need to be drastically improved.

IF we needed to run more dairy cattle to meet food demands, we'd end up in a far more serious situation. That it would literally be impossible to do so in most places of the world. What are you not getting? We need to cut livestock numbers, cut grazing. The reason why the dairy cattle industry is so small and run in so few places in substantial volume is because you can't run dairy cattle everywhere.

Why are you arguing this point? How would we run substantial dairy cattle operations in the Kalahari? Most of the world cannot increase dairy production. In many of the places that dairy cattle are run there is substantial measures needed to be taken to maintain soil integrity. You cannot compare the few places where dairy cattle can be run with relatively minor measures needed to be taken to prevent land loss, and port those models to the rest of the world.

You can, however, port effective agriculture measures to large tracts of places which are suffering major land loss. Overgrazing is the single largest contributor to soil degradation. We need to cut grazing. Not increase it. It is a wasteful way to feed people and will contribute to increased obstacles in the future to meet world food targets. Increasing livestock grazing to meet a growing world population is not the answer. Particularly if we look at regional food security, and providing food security to places that are already suffering major land loss.

To simulate the dairy cattle industry elsewhere as in Australia, not only do you have to convert good land from agricultural potential into grazing land, you would need to radically increase fertiliser and water usage to maintain them. So no ... dare I say you haven't researched a damn thing. Hell, if I had a choice between dairy cattle and beef in high human growth centers like Africa, I might even side with beef.

I would certainly prefer to go with sheep and goat.

I will, however, always side with modern agriculture practices to improve lands, improve vegetative cover and produce more food.

(edit) Look at that map you provided before. Australia exports more grain, vegetable, fruit and nuts (not to mention viticulture and other semi processed goods based on them) than it will ever do livestock and dairy products. How much land loss is attributeable in Australia to crop production? Australia mass exports more green stock than it does livestock and animal products. Not even including the huge amounts we produce simply to FEED livestock and ourselves domestically ... and yet overgrazing is still our greatest environmental challenge. That is an insane amount of damage to simply enjoy a cheap glass of milk or a cheap piece of sirloin.

Most of the world cannot look at cheeses as a future staple.

Sri Lanka... in 1999 Sri Lanka needed to run over half of its current buffalo milk stock on dry lowlands, and according to the Sri Lankan environmental authorities, the situation was; "There is little being done to protect fodder and pasture protection still." And Sri Lanka is considered more responsible in its dairying than India or Pakistan. And yet, despite that fact, the only way that they could effectively price regulate dairy quotas sustainably is 38% of total domestic supply being completely 'informal' (in common parlance, no testing, no regulation, no health status checks of cattle, and no guarantee of future supply on a year to year basis). One third of their entire milk supply is given over to good faith, in other words.


( https://cgspace.cgiar.org/bitstream/handle/10568/53143/SriLanka_DairyAppraisal_V1.pdf?sequence=1 )

Another thing for you to not read and research.

Since 1999 they still consistently fail to meet domestic demand, and more cattle are being run on smaller holds. Compounded by excess tea production as well as grazing near highly susceptible regions that contribute to severe soil erosion. Despite raising demand, total ruminants have decreased from 2000 to 2007. Sri Lanka now consumes less milk now than it did 30 years ago. If anything, animal product consumption has radically transformed into chicken meat consumption and milk powders (principle, whey). Regardless of 20 years of attempted reform, Sri Lanka still cannot meet its dairy demands, and is simply going backwards in terms of fresh dariy product consumption.

Dairy consumption is dropping worldwide. There are fewer places capable of providing it. By acre, chicken meat and eggs are better than dairy production, and so many countries are simply giving up trying to meet dairy demand domestically, and many countries are focussing on egg production which has higher protein yields for less.

Most of Sri Lanka's buffalo ruminants are used for farm operations. Not as commercial-level milk or meat. Pulling hoes, a source of manure, or merely rounding out a farmer's personal diet and putting them on uncultivated land because ... well, why not? You can always split the milk with the calves, slaughter bull calves, or sell them at markets if you think they look strong and others might be interested at breeding stronger stock. Makes sense if you're poor. But such operations are far and beyond the average living experience of Sri Lankans. They are certainly beyond any large scale commercial enterprise or long term degree of dairy production.

( http://www.academia.edu/11428439/The_dairy_industry_in_Sri_Lanka )

In order to go back to such sustainable widespread dairy consumption, more of us are going to need overalls.

( http://www.fao.org/docrep/012/i1522e/i1522e02.pdf )


( http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/farmers-forced-to-slaughter-cows-as-el-nino-leaves-no-room-for-passengers-20151023-gkgm2x.html )

They are planning to mass slaughter dairy cattle in Australia and so expect dairy supply to go down again by next year, but not only that .... expect more dairy farms to disappear. Half of them even in Western Europe have disappeared in the last 20 years. But apparently we should just run more and throw more of our money into fires to sustain world demand for dairy products. As dry periods periodically coalesce for longer between ever shortening wet spells with climate change, dairy cattle are going to be consistently looked at as the least productive, most expendable herd type there is. You can turn dairy cattle into meat to avoid increases in the cost of grain when pastures die, after all.

Dairy production is shit at feeding people. Most countries can't achieve milk self-sufficiency, and those that can, most of them are being destroyed for it. And no, you haven't researched a damn thing. If you had, you'd realize a minute handful of countries can actually produce large export quantities of milk products. In fact, due to high consumer price but low global demand from most societies (who either can't afford it or don't want it), a lot of surplus milk, sold as milk, is merely being dumped.

( http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/with-almond-as-the-new-white-milk-dairy-alternatives-make-further-inroads-1608815.htm )

In fact, due to the supply of energy corrected, pasteurized milk (4% fat, 3.3% protein milk), the milk/feed ratio price of producing milk is ridiculously volatile on a year to year basis. Leading to undersupply with undesireable fresh milk at best, and sudden oversupply and crippling shortfalls with minimal price reduction for consumers at worst. The 2015 milk oversupply in February contributed to only a 5% drop in price for consumers, despite massive volumes of unsold milk.

Due to dairy production being so incredibly volatile, it is the least dependable type of herd cattle to run. That most of the 122 million 'milk farms' in the world (remember, the average is a whopping 3 cows per farm to be a 'dairy farm' by International Farm Comparison Network standards) ... most of those farms will barely survive trying to meet commercial volumes, and rather nearly all dairy production relies on intimate trade between farmer and maybe a nearby common market, if not only for familial use.

All in all, dairy production is cost effective in a handful of countries, and prohibitively expensive in nearly all developing nations. Put it this way .... a skilled farmer could milk 12 cows a day prior modern milking machines and rotational feed and milking technologies. In places without consistent power, without feed, or without proper price guarantees and modern veterinarian science, will not meet the demands of establishing competitive dairy production that exceed the yields guaranteed by good agricultural cropping practices ... much less running beef cattle. Part of the reasons why developing countries default to running animals for meat, or as a minor adjunct to crops, to begin with.

You don't need a multimillion dollar milking machine to make a profit with beef, nor do you risk selling something that might be not even be wanted in commercial supply. Most of the world is lactose intolerant, but most of the world can still eat a burger.

Looking at the diets of people beyond the Western sphere, this is also painfully obvious.

http://www.ifcndairy.org/media/downloads/Press-release-IFCN-Dairy-Report-2013.pdf

To put it plainly....

 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
Nov 20, 2008
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Funny, I never heard this, and I even know some vegans. As long as THEY don't eat the things they don't wanna eat, they're pretty chill. I'm really not concerned if any of them disapprove of my nature.
 

MishaK

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Dec 23, 2015
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PaulH said:
MishaK said:
Why do you insist on grouping "All grazing" together instead of discussing the very different elements of it independently?
|Because it's not independant. In Australia, dairy cattle grazing is responsible for far greater emissions.
What does one have to do with the other? Because in the case of one unusually giant, unusually lightly populated continental nation it doesn't work that way, you don't think these issues should be separately examined? How is the beef industry, and its primarily wealthy, Western market not very different from the diary market with its broad role as an international staple? How can you compare activities that in most parts of the world, exist at different scales of production, and act like they're part of one mixed problem?
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
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MishaK said:
What does one have to do with the other? Because in the case of one unusually giant, unusually lightly populated continental nation it doesn't work that way, you don't think these issues should be separately examined? How is the beef industry, and its primarily wealthy, Western market not very different from the diary market with its broad role as an international staple? How can you compare activities that in most parts of the world, exist at different scales of production, and act like they're part of one mixed problem?
Primarily because they shouldn't be compared at all. Increasing dairy production is not going to work to feed more people. The technological and environmental barriers to competitive dairy production is far greater than simply running beef cattle. Dairy industry is pathetically small, but its effects are no less observable. Dairy herds in small numbers makes sense, but if you honestly think that most farmers out there can run more dairy cattle then you've never handmilked an animal. Which is why the blanket statement of reduce grazing is more than apt. Modern rotary milking procedures in places like Germany? They are twice as efficient than technologies only 10 years ago, and those technologies were 80 times more efficient than hand milking.

It is also not a problem for 'one continent' ... major desertification due to running grazing cattle is a world condition of developing nations. It also represents one of the principle reasons why developing nations will continue to suffer to meet food security. The problem in Botswana was caused by the maketing of beef cattle to the rest of the world, not to feed domestic people. When you had major scale desertification and a sudden dought period, you had increased conflicts between roaming cattle and domestic crop growers who were doing more to feed their own people than said graziers. The vegetation conflict between graziers and natural and crop vegetation alsmot doubled. Leading to further shortfalls in domestic food security at the time it was most needed.

Also, the principle problem of desertification is that it's happening in places with corresponding high human population growth. Compounding the issue of food security. Dairy cattle are not the primary problem, simply running more dairy cattle will make it a problem. Pretending that dairy cattle can become competitive industries in most of the developing world is also unviable in any realistic measure. It is more than apt to merely say 'cut grazing, cut livestock numbers'. There is no reason to discriminate between grazing animals for dairy production and grazing animals for meat. Total grazing has to be reduced.

This is why I made the argument before ... if you must have grazing, then it might as well be for meat. Because dairy sure as hell isn't going to cut it. It's why developing countries run beef cattle to begin with. You don't need things like consistent power supply, housing, milking machines, high feed counts, and increased labour. Meat livestock you can run a few large herds of with a handful of graziers and a couple of dogs.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
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PaulH said:
MishaK said:
Why do you insist on grouping "All grazing" together instead of discussing the very different elements of it independently?
|Because it's not independant. In Australia, dairy cattle grazing is responsible for far greater emissions.
The claim that "dairy cattle grazing" is significant is a claim you have not backed up. Please do so before responding to the following minor points because I am finding data that conflicts with your claims.

1. First up, Australia has a massive problem with native and introduced wildlife overgrazing and this is considered one of the single biggest causes of soil degradation and would fall under "overgrazing" numbers. It's bad to the point where the Australian government has authorized the culling of large numbers of native species because of it. The most recent example was in 2013 when they authorized killing 1455 kangaroos due to overgrazing. [http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Australias-Striped-Legless-Lizard-Threatened-by-Overgrazing-Kangaroos/] Unfortunately, animal rights activists who don't understand animal population management saves other species as well as the environment have delayed the attempt to fix this problem. There are also problems with animals introduced to Australia from elsewhere over the years, like rabbits. I have been able to find that Australia has major issues with native animal grazing being unchecked due to native inhabitants no longer hunting grazing wildlife for sustenance and due to natural predators like Dingoes being reduced.

2. Dairy doesn't make up as much as you may think of Australian agriculture as it does in other countries: <a href=http://www.dairyaustralia.com.au/Environment-and-resources/Climate/MicroSite1/Home/Climate-and-greenhouse-basics/Greenhouse-gas-footprint/Dairy-footprint.aspx>For example, on the emission side of things, agriculture (including dairy) only make up 17% of Australia's emissions and dairy only makes up 10% of that (so 1.7%).

So emissions aren't bad at all though their agriculture emissions in general are low too.

3. <a href=http://www.landcareonline.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/natural-resource-management-on-Australian-farms-2004.pdf>Regarding soil degradation in Australia,, this is a 2004 pdf that discusses a recognition of soil degradation by farmers in Australia and a report on a significant number of participants (over half) changing their grazing practices to ensure future sustainability. Basically, it makes financial sense to mitigate soil erosion and it is something that sustainable grazing practices can not only fix but can actually improve on.

So again, you're argument that it has to stop rather than just implementing sustainable grazing is not only the same argument that can be levied at multiple crops but is basically squashing a fly with a sledgehammer.

I'm not sure why anything that happens in one country that has significant contributing factors means anything to the others if the others are experiencing something very differently. Doesn't that sound more like Australia sucks at regulating their industry if huge establishments like dairy in America can have such drastically different results?

So again, even if your claim was correct I'm not seeing why "Australia is bad at producing dairy efficiently" means "the entire world needs to cease dairy production.

Because agriculture feeds more people.
First off, dairy and meat are both considered agriculture. So I'm assuming you're meaning crop agriculture specifically feeds more people which is a meaningless statement since crop agriculture includes all veggies, fruit and legumes across the board. Dairy has a significantly better emission/soil erosion ratio per calorie than a significant portion of agriculture and is actually significantly beneficial to our health (particularly milk). So I'm not sure what your point is here. Dairy is farmed to meet demand and as such makes up a small portion of agriculture but it is more efficient than many forms of agriculture including soybeans. Essentially, dairy is just the equivalent of one crop but more wildly consumed than most crops while being more efficient than other crops. A better argument regarding ceasing operations due to soil degradation and emissions can be made against various crops. You could say, for example, that soybeans should not be farmed anymore because the rest of crop agriculture feeds far more people than those specific items do and soybeans contribute heavily to soil erosion and GHGs, moreso than say, dairy. Again, don't forget that the efficiency of food is emission per calorie.

That modern cropping techniques can actively fight desertification. Or did you fail to read that Cambridge study again? Don't give me garbage that you're 'willing to research' if you can't be bothered to read a 30 page report on how to improve soil and combat desertification. Hint, it has to do something with crops and plant growth ...
And? Modern grazing techniques can also actively fight desertification. What's your point? Do you think I'm against implementing sustainable practices? Because I'm not. My problem is with you saying that all grazing has to stop when it doesn't and isn't even always as bad as crop agriculture on the land nor does it have to be when done properly.

If overgrazing is the largest problem in the world for soil degradation,
First off, it isn't the biggest problem in regulated areas. It is the largest problem in Africa and Asia which both have massive problems regarding any kind of attempts at sustainability, but elsewhere the biggest problem is deforestation with agricultural activities and overgrazing being about equivalent. Claiming that it is the biggest problem all over is intellectually dishonest which brings me to the second point.

Secondly, this varies greatly by region. You are citing Australia which (regarding soil degradation in susceptible drylands) has the third smallest degraded land numbers (just above South America and, surprisingly to me since this is in raw numbers and not proportion, N. America). If you were citing N. America you would see that agricultural activities account for 52.1% as of this as compared to 34.8% that is overgrazing (which includes both dairy and beef). As already stated too, beef grazing requires ten times the amount of land that dairy does.

Lastly, you continue to group dairy grazing in with beef grazing. I have repeatedly showed you that not only does dairy require significantly less land overall, but is significantly healthier on its land. Here, again, is the chart of that:

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/33/11996/F3.medium.gif

Stop waving your hand at grazing as though all grazing is the same. It isn't. Please understand that point. You can continue citing the impacts of grazing but until you accept that not all grazing is the same then you have no right to proclaim that every individual form of grazing must cease. Especially not when agriculture plays an equivalent or much larger role in other regions.

Dairy cattle need good land. Good land is not a universally shared condition.
Which is all the more reason to implement modern grazing techniques to improve the land.

Pretty shitty land is a far more universal condition. Land that would be better served and serving by crops and orchards .... which would require less fertiliser.
Cool, which is why the industries that rely on grazing are converting to sustainable farming techniques because there is significant financial motivation to increase land yields by restoring soil quality and mitigating future degradation. Same with other agricultural sectors that see the same kind of reductions in produced goods as the soil quality diminishes.

Also, orchards provide a small fraction of what people consume. It's fruit (which requires a ton of pesticides and causes worse emissions than some meats) and nuts (which is a very small portion of diets). You're actually supposed to drink more milk (3 cups) per day than fruit (2 cups) and nuts (1.5 ounces) combined. It's nice to say that "orchards are the solution", but they're not. Per acre they are far less efficient at producing food and both modern crop techniques and dairy techniques can have a positive impact on the soil when employed.

So no you have yet to prove that their impact is 'minor' ... after all, we need to use a third of fertilisers to maintain a measly 1.9M dairy cattle. How is that 'minor'? And the thing is, you won't get better results than Australia in prime locations of the world where food security will need to be drastically improved.

IF we needed to run more dairy cattle to meet food demands, we'd end up in a far more serious situation. That it would literally be impossible to do so in most places of the world. What are you not getting? We need to cut livestock numbers, cut grazing. The reason why the dairy cattle industry is so small and run in so few places in substantial volume is because you can't run dairy cattle everywhere.

Why are you arguing this point? How would we run substantial dairy cattle operations in the Kalahari? Most of the world cannot increase dairy production. In many of the places that dairy cattle are run there is substantial measures needed to be taken to maintain soil integrity. You cannot compare the few places where dairy cattle can be run with relatively minor measures needed to be taken to prevent land loss, and port those models to the rest of the world.
Because you are wrong. Dairy grazing requires significantly less land that beef grazing and dairy grazing has a smaller impact per acre than beef has. To the point of it already being more efficient than a large number of crops. Dairy grazing is frequently as harmless as any other crop farming. Beef grazing is crazily disproportionate when done improperly. But no one here is saying that sustainability shouldn't be pursued. We're just disagreeing with your assessment of dairy grazing.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
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Slice said:
Why increase dairy production? Why not just cut beef production, which will free up land for non-grazing use, and dairy grazing. As far as I can tell, dairy also has the benefit of not being subject to the kind of abuses that beef has been for pure economic gain, at the same scale. The useful lifetime of a single cow for dairy is a lot longer than a steer for beef, and less resource intensive as you're not fattening them for market.

In every way, they are different beasts.
For some reason, the poster simply cannot accept this point as valid. No matter how many studies or articles we send his way. It's all "Grazing" to him.