Can Zombies exist or not?
- Thread starter ZombieDroid
- Start date
see but the thing is i need SCIENCE! I need legit scientific reasons to argue against and disprove the side that thinks that zombies can exist. I need to present both sides of the question equally...
One of the problems I see with your topic of choice here, is that you've chosen a topic that has an absolute resolution. Either it's possible, or it's not. There is no opposition here. A more appropriate topic would be "Zombies or Robots: Which is better?" That involves opposing ideas, not an absolute.
Scientifically? No.
Logically? Possibly. If there were man-rabies. But they wouldn't be zombies then.
In a film making industry where they're a core of making money? Yes.
Logically? Possibly. If there were man-rabies. But they wouldn't be zombies then.
In a film making industry where they're a core of making money? Yes.
I think you can live without brain function... just look at the cast of "Jersey Shore"Demented Teddy said:
but zombies existing can be possible with the application of nanobots that would attempt to repair the body after death but when they are not able to, they would activate muscles or control the brain stem by themselves to create the illusion of life. (if this happened we would get an army of self-repairing zombies and would be screwed) self repairing nanobots are already in the development stages... lets just hope they don't go skynet on us at any time.
No, because thats a lot of sudden nerve damage.Demented Teddy said:
That has nothing to do with the process your body undergoes when you die. It takes months for the electrical activity in your brain to die down after a natural death. If the brain is damaged suddenly and severely by a stroke, then duh it stops working but that is far from my point.
Are you talking about how it couldn't happen at ALL or couldn't happen long term?
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Ideas off the top of my head:
1. Rigor Mortis.
Sure, you could have zombies... their limbs just don't work. I am also reminded about the chinese vampires (which are like life-draining HOPPING with stiff legs zombies... see to believe).
2. Analysis of virus survivability/propagation.
There are many crazy diseases (brain eating bacteria anyone?) out there but they have such a high 'death' rate/low transmission, that the disease pretty much wipes itself out. If the zombies ONLY spread via bite contamination (and not some airborne pathogen that re-animates all dead corpses/hell is full so all dead turn into zombies) then the zombie plague will (due to rigor mortis, decay, effective quarantine) simply die out.
3. There could be analysis of the disease/infection and how it affects living/dead people. Most biological things have... for ease of conversation... a "sweet spot". They like a certain pH, environment, 'food', etc with some range of 'tolerance'. Sure, your disease could affect someone's mind when they are alive (producing dementia, 'rage' virus movie type scenario, reavers from firefly), but it may not work when they are dead because of environment changes. Likewise, it does nothing to a person when they are alive but when they die, the airborne pathogen can 'grow'/take over the dead person.
4. Our body reacts in various ways due to injuries. Most nervous system damage to humans is caused by our own body reacting to external damage/inflammation. (the body 'eats itself'). A person dying in a traumatic way (while preserving the head/zombie brain) can be an ineffective zombie due to nervous system damage, etc. Same as rigor mortis I guess.
In the end, I think you can only show why zombies wouldn't last long term. I mean, technically, someone could claim the "dead space" route where there is an alien 'pathogen' that uses the dead corpse as biological building blocks to create a new entity. There is at least 1 species I know of on earth who does this (i forget the name, but the 'infection' web author guy (who i don't care for that much) talks about it. At any rate, if anything is 'possible', then sure, a virus that uses dead bodies to create a new entity (in this case zombies) is possible. Oh wait, I think I just described Resident Evil's virus ;P.
Corvuus
P.S. hard to prove that zombies are 100% impossible in all situations. Can prove that they are ineffective/hampered unless it is a really crazy RE/deadspace type. ;P
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Ideas off the top of my head:
1. Rigor Mortis.
Sure, you could have zombies... their limbs just don't work. I am also reminded about the chinese vampires (which are like life-draining HOPPING with stiff legs zombies... see to believe).
2. Analysis of virus survivability/propagation.
There are many crazy diseases (brain eating bacteria anyone?) out there but they have such a high 'death' rate/low transmission, that the disease pretty much wipes itself out. If the zombies ONLY spread via bite contamination (and not some airborne pathogen that re-animates all dead corpses/hell is full so all dead turn into zombies) then the zombie plague will (due to rigor mortis, decay, effective quarantine) simply die out.
3. There could be analysis of the disease/infection and how it affects living/dead people. Most biological things have... for ease of conversation... a "sweet spot". They like a certain pH, environment, 'food', etc with some range of 'tolerance'. Sure, your disease could affect someone's mind when they are alive (producing dementia, 'rage' virus movie type scenario, reavers from firefly), but it may not work when they are dead because of environment changes. Likewise, it does nothing to a person when they are alive but when they die, the airborne pathogen can 'grow'/take over the dead person.
4. Our body reacts in various ways due to injuries. Most nervous system damage to humans is caused by our own body reacting to external damage/inflammation. (the body 'eats itself'). A person dying in a traumatic way (while preserving the head/zombie brain) can be an ineffective zombie due to nervous system damage, etc. Same as rigor mortis I guess.
In the end, I think you can only show why zombies wouldn't last long term. I mean, technically, someone could claim the "dead space" route where there is an alien 'pathogen' that uses the dead corpse as biological building blocks to create a new entity. There is at least 1 species I know of on earth who does this (i forget the name, but the 'infection' web author guy (who i don't care for that much) talks about it. At any rate, if anything is 'possible', then sure, a virus that uses dead bodies to create a new entity (in this case zombies) is possible. Oh wait, I think I just described Resident Evil's virus ;P.
Corvuus
P.S. hard to prove that zombies are 100% impossible in all situations. Can prove that they are ineffective/hampered unless it is a really crazy RE/deadspace type. ;P
It depends on your definition I'd say. Night of the Living Dead zombies; no way, but Left 4 Dead zombies, maybe. Something like rabies does turn people into violent psychopaths, but still, if the whole world was zombified, they would just attack each other, I can't imagine away they wouldn't.
So, yes and no. No to the traditional sense, a (quasi) yes to the modern style.
So, yes and no. No to the traditional sense, a (quasi) yes to the modern style.
I have that book. Its listed as fiction and humor so i don't think it was meant to be taken seriously. Still that comic made me laugh my ass off. God i love Mr.T.Cowabungaa said:In a nutshell:
Undead? No. Infected? Technically yes. And some outlandish examples written in a cracked.com article that someone will post here. That someone is not me.
What I will post is Mr T's excellent explanation about why traditional, undead-type zombies are not possible. The floor's yours Mr T:
Oh Mr T, is there anything you don't know?
Brought to you by ASS; the A-Team Association for Science.
Then they're not brain-dead as the brain controls basic motor functions too. They're drugged, and that's worse enough.Manatee Slayer said:
OT: Nope, just pretty much like MR.T said. Not only that but the idea that a human body could function properly with as extensive muscle damage as shown in the media is laughable. Your muscle system is incredibly complex. You see zombies half rotted when just having your ankles sprained or your Achilles heel cut is enough to render you useless. Not from pain but total lack of control and thus balance. Seriously loosing that tendon is pretty much the equivalent of having your leg cut off.
Depends on what you call a zombie.
"Undead" zombie a la early Romero films can't exist. The moment you die, your body activity naturally stops. And unless you're revived very soon, your organs - especially your brain - dies from lack of oxygen. Your blood, without your heart to drive it, coagulates in your veins, making it kinda unable to carry oxygen. Your body goes "stiff". So, uh, without any source of oxygen, one's muscles wouldn't function. And even if the could, stiff limbs wouldn't really allow for a really menacing zombies. Yes, yes, I know, that's the main excuse for shambling for zombies. But really, imagine anything effectively walking or shambling on practically straight limbs without all the precision control your muscles allow you now. It would be pretty damn unlikely.
And the whole "attack people and eat brains" thing isn't really applicable here, too. With no digestive system, what's the point? And even if there was one somehow miraculously working, why would it require something this specific, especially given zombies' lack of reasonable movement.
Rabies-infested not really zombie a la 28 days later is somewhat more realistic. Rabies, as it is in it's current form in animals, does pretty fucked up shit. Pumped up aggressiveness, good chance to spread the disease through bite, fucks with your head - I'm pretty sure at later stages of rabies one suffering from it becomes hydrophobic, although my source might be outdated.
But that doesn't really allow for the "braaaains" type of zombies.
I could see some kind of sci-fi zombies a la bodies controlled by generic "nanobots" or devices, but it kinda blurs the line between cyborgs a bit. Or animated monstrosity, but then again a corpse that is able to move and do stuff because there's a robot underneath the rotting flesh is not really a zombie, it's more of a simple robot. Even first terminator did funny stuff like that, wrapping himself in human flesh to fail to avoid falling into a really dumb plot hole with the time machine.
Hmm, what else.
Voodoo zombies, those are pretty realistic. But then again, they are kinda what started the whole zombie thing. Although probably a good portion of lore comes from more ancient beliefs, undead aren't exactly rare in folklore. In my native Russia, there's a fucking evil skeleton wizard character that probably dates to before Christianity. While it's hardly a zombie, it's an undead, and given the fascination people always had with death it's very reasonable to assume that current zombies in some way inherited some things from older western undead creatures in folklore. But then again, I'm not too familiar with folklore aside from the really mainstream stuff like Kalevala and Illiade/Odyssey and a number of other Norse and Greek myths.
Pointless rant, back to voodoo zombies. A voodoo zombies is just someone forcibly drugged with a lot of crap, and led to believe they're dead and a zombie in service of whoever chose to do this to them. It's not that different from, you know, persuading a really drunk guy to do something outlandishly stupid, but more permanent and with more debilitating side effects.
And of course, in case of the voodoo zombie, the zombie is just someone REALLY stoned out of their mind, and I doubt that it's the pleasant kind of "stoned". It's not that far from techniques various cults use to improve loyalty, you make various rituals and stuff to stop your recruits from having enough sleep, maybe encourage some group ritualized drug consumption, anything to lower the focus of the recruits. And then you push your bullshit on them and they don't disagree too much.
Voodoo zombie is just like that, but with a lot more drugs and bullshit. And on a much smaller scale.
"Undead" zombie a la early Romero films can't exist. The moment you die, your body activity naturally stops. And unless you're revived very soon, your organs - especially your brain - dies from lack of oxygen. Your blood, without your heart to drive it, coagulates in your veins, making it kinda unable to carry oxygen. Your body goes "stiff". So, uh, without any source of oxygen, one's muscles wouldn't function. And even if the could, stiff limbs wouldn't really allow for a really menacing zombies. Yes, yes, I know, that's the main excuse for shambling for zombies. But really, imagine anything effectively walking or shambling on practically straight limbs without all the precision control your muscles allow you now. It would be pretty damn unlikely.
And the whole "attack people and eat brains" thing isn't really applicable here, too. With no digestive system, what's the point? And even if there was one somehow miraculously working, why would it require something this specific, especially given zombies' lack of reasonable movement.
Rabies-infested not really zombie a la 28 days later is somewhat more realistic. Rabies, as it is in it's current form in animals, does pretty fucked up shit. Pumped up aggressiveness, good chance to spread the disease through bite, fucks with your head - I'm pretty sure at later stages of rabies one suffering from it becomes hydrophobic, although my source might be outdated.
But that doesn't really allow for the "braaaains" type of zombies.
I could see some kind of sci-fi zombies a la bodies controlled by generic "nanobots" or devices, but it kinda blurs the line between cyborgs a bit. Or animated monstrosity, but then again a corpse that is able to move and do stuff because there's a robot underneath the rotting flesh is not really a zombie, it's more of a simple robot. Even first terminator did funny stuff like that, wrapping himself in human flesh to fail to avoid falling into a really dumb plot hole with the time machine.
Hmm, what else.
Voodoo zombies, those are pretty realistic. But then again, they are kinda what started the whole zombie thing. Although probably a good portion of lore comes from more ancient beliefs, undead aren't exactly rare in folklore. In my native Russia, there's a fucking evil skeleton wizard character that probably dates to before Christianity. While it's hardly a zombie, it's an undead, and given the fascination people always had with death it's very reasonable to assume that current zombies in some way inherited some things from older western undead creatures in folklore. But then again, I'm not too familiar with folklore aside from the really mainstream stuff like Kalevala and Illiade/Odyssey and a number of other Norse and Greek myths.
Pointless rant, back to voodoo zombies. A voodoo zombies is just someone forcibly drugged with a lot of crap, and led to believe they're dead and a zombie in service of whoever chose to do this to them. It's not that different from, you know, persuading a really drunk guy to do something outlandishly stupid, but more permanent and with more debilitating side effects.
And of course, in case of the voodoo zombie, the zombie is just someone REALLY stoned out of their mind, and I doubt that it's the pleasant kind of "stoned". It's not that far from techniques various cults use to improve loyalty, you make various rituals and stuff to stop your recruits from having enough sleep, maybe encourage some group ritualized drug consumption, anything to lower the focus of the recruits. And then you push your bullshit on them and they don't disagree too much.
Voodoo zombie is just like that, but with a lot more drugs and bullshit. And on a much smaller scale.
Uhm...kay...I understand the theories of zombies caused by things like African Sleeping Sickness, toxoplasmosis, CJD, Seritonin removal etc etc, but thats not what I am looking for. My dialectical is about the existance of zombies and I need to write about both sides. Maybe I sould change it to whether zombies could be long term or not...I don't know, but I'm just not finding the science in it all that I need. And ITS NOT PROVING ZOMBIE EXISTANCE THAT I NEED ITS DISPROVING IT lol, I have all that I need for justifying existance, its the opposing side that I need... Whats a girl to do?