Canadian Study: Piracy Created by Greedy Capitalists

[The_root_of_all_evil]

that seems a bit overly reductive to me.

Perhaps, but it works as a basic principle.

it's not just "two sides duking it out" as much as "the people who release the products vs parts of their consumer base to whom 'all rights reserved' is irrelevant or outright hostile."

And you could say the same about Republican vs Democrat, Tory vs Labour (at least you used to), Religion versus Atheism, PC vs Console, Boys vs Girls...

Side A wants full rights to Artist C's work, Side B wants full rights to Artist C's work. A wants the works without always paying C, B wants the works without always paying C.

Artist C wants what he's worth. Somewhere in the middle.

 

[campofapproval]

Cheaper options wouldn't do anything. Look at the anime industry. Anime in japan costs easily 2-10x the amount it costs American consumers and yet Americans still pirate it like crazy despite steep discounting. Dirty pirates will be dirty pirates.

this is a) your opinion, b) anecdotal evidence at best, and c) of little relevance to the discussion.
thanks for ruining it!

You mean like how this is your opinion and has no relevance to this discussion? Thanks for making a worthless comment.

it's great you want to say something about "dirty pirates" without adding to the conversation (and probably start a flamewar a few posts from now) but seriously, this is the first thread i've seen in this here forum that didn't have an abundance of people like you. you know, the people who just say things cause they can say things, the people who can't cite sources because they're just SAYING THINGS, people who turn a decent discussion into hyperbole, "this is what my uninformed self thinks" and "pay attention to me!" if only we could take back the ten seconds it took for you to sully this thread with a vomit of irrelevant posts.

Are you saying that everything I need to say on a fucking forum needs to be properly cited, complete with a bibliography at the bottom? Sorry, no, it's a forum not an essay.

The guy who you originally quoted had a very valid point, whether or not it was supported by a bunch of studies. Do you need someone to tell you how to put two and two together? No, sometimes you can take a rough stab at something yourself. There is no need to be a dick - this is a forum, hardly a formal place.

i'm not saying everything needs to be cited as much as the person i quoted challenged legitimate research by asserting his/her own opinion with no evidence, namely that "pirates" are "dirty" and "i'm not gonna read this in favor of saying my own irrelevant piece without any source to back up my contrasting statements in regard to the op." cute to be sure, but it does less than add to discussion.
it'd be like me interrupting a conversation on steroid use by professional baseball players by saying "well people are just evolving! once upon a time we were cavemen or whatever, now we're getting better at baseball. drugs are okay cause it makes us stronger!" by saying that i'm doing less than if i just kept my mouth shut.

 

[zehydra]

"Well, my basic problem with the logic here is that these things are by no means a nessecity. Yes, the media industry is corrupt and greedy, but at the same time people in developing nations that can't afford things like this shouldn't feel justified in simply stealing them, or performing knock offs"

This this this this this.

People do NOT deserve entertainment they cannot afford.

 

[flaviok79]

Cheaper options wouldn't do anything. Look at the anime industry. Anime in japan costs easily 2-10x the amount it costs American consumers and yet Americans still pirate it like crazy despite steep discounting. Dirty pirates will be dirty pirates.

this is a) your opinion, b) anecdotal evidence at best, and c) of little relevance to the discussion.
thanks for ruining it!

Still a valid point i think despite being anecdotal, I don't think lower prices would do much to decrease piracy. If its free and easy at 60 bucks why would I not pirate at 9.99 or something? Only thing I can see wherein somebody would buy is if it was a situations where they didn't have access before.

I am a Brazilian gamer, and that's a very expensive hobby to have here.
Since I studied the subject, using my MBA in foreign trade knowledge of taxes and fees, I happen to agree with the report.
I had to pay US$ 150,00 for my regular copy of Mass Effect 2, and I identified some causes that the report also points out, and one that it doesn?t:
1 - Taxes. Videogames are taxed as 'superfluous' items here. Over 70% Import tax.
2 - Freight. The volume of games imported here are low, so they come here by courier at premium price (and additional 60% tax).
3 - Total lack of marketing awareness by the publishers. Right now, our currency is strong in comparison to its historical standards towards the US Dollar. Even so, it is still worth 40% what a Dollar is worth. Also, our percapita income is 9 times lower than US's. That means, games are an average 9 times more expensive in relation to our incomes. Our minimum wage is about US$ 270,00 a month. Publishers are greedy and clueless to our situation.
We don't have lots of money, but we have volumes.

Microsoft translates LIVE and games to our market using Portugal's Portuguese, not Brazilian's. That is strange, since Brazilians are almost the totality of the world population of Portuguese speakers (we are 186.000.000 against 10.000.000 Portuguese). And our accent and choice of words differ a lot from the Portuguese's.

The previous generations were worse. Sony didn't launch Playstation 1 in Brazil, the only source we had for games were pirated games.

And there is at least one success story that proves that games at a reasonable price sell well here:

There is a publisher that figured out a loophole in the tax code, that allowed for a magazine or book to be released with media like cd's or dvd's. They made a very thin magazine with tips and manual for each game and the game itself came attached. Recently released computer games would come here for prices as low as US$ 8,00, due to the tax relief. They sell like water in the desert.

Please don't judge us third worlders for going after our fun in the black market. The only reason the few of us (me included) who play original games do it yet is for services like Live. Otherwise, it would be bootleg all the way!

 

[campofapproval]

that seems a bit overly reductive to me.

Perhaps, but it works as a basic principle.

it's not just "two sides duking it out" as much as "the people who release the products vs parts of their consumer base to whom 'all rights reserved' is irrelevant or outright hostile."

And you could say the same about Republican vs Democrat, Tory vs Labour (at least you used to), Religion versus Atheism, PC vs Console, Boys vs Girls...

Side A wants full rights to Artist C's work, Side B wants full rights to Artist C's work. A wants the works without always paying C, B wants the works without always paying C.

Artist C wants what he's worth. Somewhere in the middle.

i see what you're saying. thing is, if side b are consumers (some of which partake in piracy) and side a are corporations (some of which drink the blood of newborns at bilderberg get-togethers) side a have been traditionally the middlemen to sell artist c's product to side b. without the need for the middlemen it becomes artist c selling directly to consumer b, ideally. corporation a has shown itself to have an awfully hard time policing consumer b to make sure it doesn't lose profits on artist c, though having corporation a's legal team in theory would help artist c protect his/her intellectual property.
from that point you have "totally diy" artists who take on corporate sponsorships, say, shoe companies, software companies, beer companies etc. to help artist c make a living, get exposure and so on. that'd b corporation d's job i suppose, since said corporations don't want control of the media as much as they want to look "cool" by supporting some hot new thing that appeals to the freewheeling hipster public.

 

[MrGalactus]

Aren't all our problems created by greedy capitalists?

 

[campofapproval]

"Well, my basic problem with the logic here is that these things are by no means a nessecity. Yes, the media industry is corrupt and greedy, but at the same time people in developing nations that can't afford things like this shouldn't feel justified in simply stealing them, or performing knock offs"

This this this this this.

People do NOT deserve entertainment they cannot afford.

by whose authority are you making this statement? also, isn't this a bit irrelevant of a point to make, as citizens of poor/developing nations still get this media, legally or otherwise? saying they SHOULDN'T is an awfully moral stance to take on something as amoral as capitalism in the context of a global market. it also has no practical application.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

thing is, if side b are consumers (some of which partake in piracy) and side a are corporations (some of which drink the blood of newborns at bilderberg get-togethers) side a have been traditionally the middlemen to sell artist c's product to side b. without the need for the middlemen it becomes artist c selling directly to consumer b, ideally. corporation a has shown itself to have an awfully hard time policing consumer b to make sure it doesn't lose profits on artist c, though having corporation a's legal team in theory would help artist c protect his/her intellectual property.
from that point you have "totally diy" artists who take on corporate sponsorships, say, shoe companies, software companies, beer companies etc. to help artist c make a living, get exposure and so on. that'd b corporation d's job i suppose, since said corporations don't want control of the media as much as they want to look "cool" by supporting some hot new thing that appeals to the freewheeling hipster public.

The problem we have is that the bigger As are locking down any showing outside their jurisdiction; (I can't get Stephen Colbert over in Blighty) and Bs pirating without any potential threats.

C's still getting hung out to dry by both sides. Especially as B is becoming more prevalent, and A is becoming less prevalent, but more powerful.

 

[frago roc]

In any case, I'm glad that Media Piracy in Emerging Economies is attempting to discuss these issues so that there is an independent source of facts other than the information released by media companies. 'Cause, you know, they kind of want to think about this stuff the way that they do.

Too bad when I try to discuss these issues on The Escapist, I get suspended or put on probation.

EDIT: Sorry if I come off as bitter; I AM! >:/

Same here. That's because certain opinions are bannable.

Yea same here, even though my same fucking opinion was expressed by Extra Credits some weeks afterwards. I even complained about it but got no response. Mods are just kantians on a power trip.

 

[JordanMillward_1]

People do NOT deserve entertainment they cannot afford.

So a person who has very little/no choice on how much they can get paid, due to the overall economy of their country of origin, doesn't deserve entertainment because they don't live in a developed, probably Western, nation?

Seriously?

Things should be sold in a particular market at a reasonable price for the consumers in that market. If that means slashing your prices in that market by half of what they would be in another market, in order for the price for the goods to be the same relative to those goods in a different market, that's what you do. You don't just decide to screw them for every penny their worth, which, if you use the same £40-50 as they do in the UK, is about half a months wages, if not more.

If companies just want to fuck people over just because they live in a developing nation, they deserve to be pirated.

 

[campofapproval]

Cheaper options wouldn't do anything. Look at the anime industry. Anime in japan costs easily 2-10x the amount it costs American consumers and yet Americans still pirate it like crazy despite steep discounting. Dirty pirates will be dirty pirates.

this is a) your opinion, b) anecdotal evidence at best, and c) of little relevance to the discussion.
thanks for ruining it!

You mean like how this is your opinion and has no relevance to this discussion? Thanks for making a worthless comment.

it's great you want to say something about "dirty pirates" without adding to the conversation (and probably start a flamewar a few posts from now) but seriously, this is the first thread i've seen in this here forum that didn't have an abundance of people like you. you know, the people who just say things cause they can say things, the people who can't cite sources because they're just SAYING THINGS, people who turn a decent discussion into hyperbole, "this is what my uninformed self thinks" and "pay attention to me!" if only we could take back the ten seconds it took for you to sully this thread with a vomit of irrelevant posts.

Are you saying that everything I need to say on a fucking forum needs to be properly cited, complete with a bibliography at the bottom? Sorry, no, it's a forum not an essay.

The guy who you originally quoted had a very valid point, whether or not it was supported by a bunch of studies. Do you need someone to tell you how to put two and two together? No, sometimes you can take a rough stab at something yourself. There is no need to be a dick - this is a forum, hardly a formal place.

i'm not saying everything needs to be cited as much as the person i quoted challenged legitimate research by asserting his/her own opinion with no evidence, namely that "pirates" are "dirty" and "i'm not gonna read this in favor of saying my own irrelevant piece without any source to back up my contrasting statements in regard to the op." cute to be sure, but it does less than add to discussion.
it'd be like me interrupting a conversation on steroid use by professional baseball players by saying "well people are just evolving! once upon a time we were cavemen or whatever, now we're getting better at baseball. drugs are okay cause it makes us stronger!" by saying that i'm doing less than if i just kept my mouth shut.

"Cheaper options wouldn't do anything. Look at the anime industry. Anime in japan costs easily 2-10x the amount it costs American consumers and yet Americans still pirate it like crazy despite steep discounting. Dirty pirates will be dirty pirates."

That's the original comment. Now, there might not be much evidence for it, and that's fine. Whether there is evidence or not isn't of my concern. Personally, I'd always assumed what that says to be true - that anime is pirated here a lot despite deep discounting. I guess I'd assumed that because you can watch it online in so many places for free and download it for free in so many different places. Those are mere assumptions.

But let's, for a minute, assume that the post you originally commented on was true. If so, then it would be perfectly relevant. The OP said that maybe if slightly older games were deeply discounted in third world countries, then people might decide to stop pirating and start actually buying the games. That comment then went on to add to the conversation by comparing that situation to the one of anime piracy in America. It's cheaper here, but it's still pirated a lot. He connected one situation to another. The two sound pretty similar to me. Remember, we're pretending here that the statement was true.

Actually, if one were to take a rough stab at it, I'd say it is true, though not to a massive extent. I mean, if you want all 5 parts of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, then you're paying about $35 for each if Amazon is to be believed. That's $35 times 5, which equals $175, and then you've got to worry about tax and shipping. Yes, I'd say that's quite expensive and it's very hard to argue with free when you face prices that high. Plenty of people will still pay for it, but that's a steep price for something.

my problem isn't that he/she mentioned anime piracy; though frankly to properly address that topic, one would need to get into the icky bits of yen/dollar currency exchange rates, japanese political leadership, japan's desperately trying to stop deflation without just printing more money, yadda yadda yadda. my problem is he/she said "dirty pirates will be dirty pirates," which, seen in the context of his/her previous statements, leads me to believe the poster fundamentally disagrees with the original post of this thread. there's no legitimate reason for the poster to say this, and no statistics to back up this contradicting statement, so it's just left as that, a black spot on what was (and still is) an interesting and enjoyable thread.

 

[MrGalactus]

quote="THEJORRRG" post="7.275210.10667006"]Aren't all our problems caused by greedy capitalists?

Yeah, but this guy, and really the entire offices of The Escapist, hate pirates (and will often suspend you if you don't).[/quote]

Do they, or do they just not condone stealing? I think they have to be against piracy. If games make no money, publishers stop making games, if publishers stop making games, Escapists have no job.

Also, I should mention that all our problems are created by greedy capitalists and ignorance. Capitalists don't get all the credit.

 

[fakeangel]

"Well, my basic problem with the logic here is that these things are by no means a nessecity. Yes, the media industry is corrupt and greedy, but at the same time people in developing nations that can't afford things like this shouldn't feel justified in simply stealing them, or performing knock offs"

This this this this this.

People do NOT deserve entertainment they cannot afford.

This is the most blatantly elitist thing I have heard in years and you should be ashamed of having this opnion

 

[frago roc]

quote="THEJORRRG" post="7.275210.10667006"]Aren't all our problems caused by greedy capitalists?

Yeah, but this guy, and really the entire offices of The Escapist, hate pirates (and will often suspend you if you don't).

Do they, or do they just not condone stealing? I think they have to be against piracy. If games make no money, publishers stop making games, if publishers stop making games, Escapists have no job.

Also, I should mention that all our problems are created by greedy capitalists and ignorance. Capitalists don't get all the credit.

They can be against all current gen piracy and that would be fine by me, but a game that is no longer being produced nor being offered for a reasonable price online? They need to realize not all piracy is done out of cheapness or disrespect for the "man." It simply is the only way to experience some old games.

Also, shouldn't used game sales be just as shunned? They provide no stimulation to the publishers.

 

[zehydra]

"Well, my basic problem with the logic here is that these things are by no means a nessecity. Yes, the media industry is corrupt and greedy, but at the same time people in developing nations that can't afford things like this shouldn't feel justified in simply stealing them, or performing knock offs"

This this this this this.

People do NOT deserve entertainment they cannot afford.

Yes, corporations are always right. Bow down to our corporate overlords. Do not question them. Obey, OBEY, OBEY!!!

I guess I worded that wrong. What I meant is that people do not have the right to the creations of others for free. Does that make more sense?

 

[zehydra]

People do NOT deserve entertainment they cannot afford.

So a person who has very little/no choice on how much they can get paid, due to the overall economy of their country of origin, doesn't deserve entertainment because they don't live in a developed, probably Western, nation?

Seriously?

Things should be sold in a particular market at a reasonable price for the consumers in that market. If that means slashing your prices in that market by half of what they would be in another market, in order for the price for the goods to be the same relative to those goods in a different market, that's what you do. You don't just decide to screw them for every penny their worth, which, if you use the same £40-50 as they do in the UK, is about half a months wages, if not more.

If companies just want to fuck people over just because they live in a developing nation, they deserve to be pirated.

and how are they fucking people over? Video games is not a necessity.