Cerberus: Hypercompetent or incompetent?

[AD-Stu]

And then, in the third game, when they are apparently a galactic force

Except they're not, they've been taken over by the Reapers who are funneling indoctrinated humans from the destroyed/infiltrated colonies which have artificially expanded their numbers. I'd argue that by that point Cerberus is no longer Cerberus anymore, it's been destroyed from within.

It's kind of the ultimate expression of their total incompetence, with access to seemingly unlimited resources, with full knowledge of the incoming attack, they're still the first thing to fall. Up to that point seemingly every project they created fails hilariously, be it Rachni escaping and running amok or Thresher Maw venom testing victims escaping (and running amok) or advanced AI controlled warships escaping (and running amok).

I spoilered this when I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but it probably bears repeating in full view:

The Illusive Man was indoctrinated at the end of the First Contact War, decades before the events of the Mass Effect games. That happens in the comics, and it's not explicitly mentioned in the games, but it's established canon. It's not much of a leap from there to work out that Cerberus has always been controlled by the Reapers.

Consider that, and suddenly they make a whole lot more sense. The inhuman research projects, the 'failures', the messing around with Reaper tech, in the end it all benefited the Reapers.

Like I said earlier this creates some other big questions that don't have answers (most notably, why in hell resurrect Shepard?!?) but it's all there in the comics and novels.

This makes no sense though. TIM makes colossal blunders repeatedly, but everyone still follows him for no reason but that he has tons of money I guess(Must be a hell of a hazard pay for people to keep signing up.) The entirety of Cerberus isn't indoctrinated at all until ME3. Which you can see for one, because none of ME2's crew is indoctrinated; and for two, because there's a whole subplot about him figuring out how to indoctrinate people in ME3. If they were indoctrinated then it was only him. And this does not explain why everyone keeps signing up to die horribly for him.

I think it's reasonable that The Illusive Man would be able to convince people to work with him - remember that most of their operatives can only see their own small projects, not the big picture, and as long as he's feeding them the right lies ("this is for the good of humanity", "sure this technology has some evil uses, but we'll only use it for good"), paying them well and hanging threats over their heads of those who don't comply as well (think the escaped researchers in ME3).

Basically he's paying them well and telling them they're working for the good of humanity, and most of them don't have enough information to know otherwise.

 

[AD-Stu]

They went rogue after the First Contact War, and they were already classified as a terrorist organisation by the time ME1 occurred (there is a 26 year gap between FCW and ME1). During the FCW they were a mercenary group serving on Shanxi and became Cerberus shortly after.

I don't accept the comics as lore. To me if it's not written in-game, or not written by Drew Karphyshyn, it doesn't count.

Effectively the Cerberus from ME1 is not the Cerberus from the rest of the series.

If someone wants to show me a codec or dialog from ME1 that says they're terrorists I'll be glad to concede. Until then I stand firm in the knowledge that ME1 Cerberus were not Terrorists.

Here's the Cerberus codex entries throughout the series:

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Organizations

While the comics may have been written by Mac Walters, the first three novels were all written by Drew Karpyshyn and they back up the same series of events.

FWIW, here's what Karpyshyn himself has to say about Cerberus in ME1 (from http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?p=381):

"When we wrote ME1, Cerberus was basically a throw-away group of pro-human radicals: a name we dropped for some side missions to play the role of villain. We didn?t even have a concept of who was running them, and we didn?t think they were that important. Obviously by the time of my Ascension novel and ME2, that had changed radically. The Illusive Man and Cerberus became central to the story and themes ? that never would have happened if we had nailed everything down and refused to make changes to the story."

Plus it may not have been witnessed first hand or explicitly referenced in the games, but there's a reason the camera lingers over and over again on The Illusive Man's eyes during ME2. It's telling you he's indoctrinated.

 

[wulf3n]

Here's the Cerberus codex entries throughout the series:

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Organizations

I don't see a ME1 codex entry in there.

FWIW, here's what Karpyshyn himself has to say about Cerberus in ME1 (from http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?p=381):

"When we wrote ME1, Cerberus was basically a throw-away group of pro-human radicals: a name we dropped for some side missions to play the role of villain. We didn?t even have a concept of who was running them, and we didn?t think they were that important. Obviously by the time of my Ascension novel and ME2, that had changed radically. The Illusive Man and Cerberus became central to the story and themes ? that never would have happened if we had nailed everything down and refused to make changes to the story."

That just proves my point. They weren't "terrorists" until ME2.

 

[lunavixen]

snip

Well the comic ME: Evolution, was written by the bioware lead writer Mac Walters, doesn't get closer to the games than that, but whatever, i'm not going to argue with you as it's rather pointless.

 

[AD-Stu]

I don't see a ME1 codex entry in there.

That just proves my point. They weren't "terrorists" until ME2.

True, the didn't even seem to rate having a Codex entry in ME1 (though the Terra Firma Party did IIRC - go figure).

Which means we need to go to dialog. Admiral Kohoku is probably the character that has the most to say about them, and this is a direct quote of what he tells us after he finds out Cerberus is behind his team going missing:

"It was a group called Cerberus. An Alliance black ops organisation. Top secret, highest-level security clearance. They vanished a few months ago. Dropped right off the grid. Nobody knew where they went to or what they were up to. They've gone completely rogue, Shepard. They're conducting illegal genetic experiments, trying to create some kind of super soldier. I don't have any proof, but I found the coordinates for one of their research worlds. I'm uploading them with this message. They're completely out of control. Somebody needs to stop them. I've done my part. Now it's up to you. This is... this is probably the last you'll hear from me. Cerberus is after me now. I need to disappear before they find me."

He does say that they were an Alliance black ops organisation, and that they vanished a few months ago. It doesn't actually say that they were still part of the Alliance until a few months ago, but I guess it's implied. And he might not use the word "terrorist" specifically, but I'd say it's a pretty valid term to describe an organisation that's "gone completely rogue", is "conducting illegal genetic experiments", is "completely out of control" and makes an Alliance Admiral fear for his life

 

[Seracen]

The 3 headed dog of the underworld is plenty competent...if not necessarily smart.

The ME entity, however, is another thing entirely. They did to Cerberus the same thing they did to Liara...they took away a true identity.

That is to say, neither behaves in a manner that is consistent with ME1. Furthermore, you can't even chalk this up to a "character arc," as Liara/Cerberus change to fit whatever the story needs.

Note, for instance, how little the Shadow Broker actually does in ME3, vs "Liara the scientist" happening to find the ruins on Mars.

Moreover, note how Cerberus is a twisted and evil splinter group in the 1st game, a small but competent independent paramilitary force in the 2nd, and the Imperial Storm Troopers in the 3rd. The progression is out of order.

TL;DR: SO yeah, they are neither and both. It just depends on what the writers needed them to be. A bit sloppy perhaps, but I can't say I wouldn't make the same mistakes in writing.

 

[wulf3n]

I don't see a ME1 codex entry in there.

That just proves my point. They weren't "terrorists" until ME2.

True, the didn't even seem to rate having a Codex entry in ME1 (though the Terra Firma Party did IIRC - go figure).

Which means we need to go to dialog. Admiral Kohoku is probably the character that has the most to say about them, and this is a direct quote of what he tells us after he finds out Cerberus is behind his team going missing:

"It was a group called Cerberus. An Alliance black ops organisation. Top secret, highest-level security clearance. They vanished a few months ago. Dropped right off the grid. Nobody knew where they went to or what they were up to. They've gone completely rogue, Shepard. They're conducting illegal genetic experiments, trying to create some kind of super soldier. I don't have any proof, but I found the coordinates for one of their research worlds. I'm uploading them with this message. They're completely out of control. Somebody needs to stop them. I've done my part. Now it's up to you. This is... this is probably the last you'll hear from me. Cerberus is after me now. I need to disappear before they find me."

He does say that they were an Alliance black ops organisation, and that they vanished a few months ago. It doesn't actually say that they were still part of the Alliance until a few months ago, but I guess it's implied. And he might not use the word "terrorist" specifically, but I'd say it's a pretty valid term to describe an organisation that's "gone completely rogue", is "conducting illegal genetic experiments", is "completely out of control" and makes an Alliance Admiral fear for his life

That's basically where I was coming from. I wasn't questioning their progression into a terrorist merely that in ME1 it wasn't said that they were terrorists.

You may have guessed that I wasn't happy with the direction ME2 took

 

[Terminal Blue]

Except they would need more than manpower to be the threat they are in ME3, where do they get their ships, weapons, armour and supplies? Without materiel they can have all the men they like, they won't be able to function as an effective military force.

Yeah..

You know how Sanctuary was advertised as this exclusive safe place where the rich and privileged of the galaxy could go and ride out the war?

I'm guessing those people probably had bank accounts.. In fact, I'm guessing there was probably quite a lot in those bank accounts. You know, if having the support of just about every human named being in the game who is rich or politically influential wasn't cutting it.

Also, considering this is a setting where an invisible nanotech device which fits on your hand and is issued to every human colonist can build robots, various types of homing grenades and superheated metal blades in less than a second simply by being installed with the right programming, where a hidden off-the-map research base can be the size of a small city and where every corporation has a private army, why are we assuming that the infrastructure needed to build materiel is particularly difficult to acquire?

 

[Megalodon]

Except they would need more than manpower to be the threat they are in ME3, where do they get their ships, weapons, armour and supplies? Without materiel they can have all the men they like, they won't be able to function as an effective military force.

Yeah..

You know how Sanctuary was advertised as this exclusive safe place where the rich and privileged of the galaxy could go and ride out the war?

I'm guessing those people probably had bank accounts.. In fact, I'm guessing there was probably quite a lot in those bank accounts. You know, if having the support of just about every human named being in the game who is rich or politically influential wasn't cutting it.

Except Sanctuary wasn't around before the war, and they have their stupid out of nowhere military from the start of the reaper invasion. Coupled with Sanctuary seeming to appeal primarily to the out of luck and desperate, based on what you hear from people the the game, I doubt many multi billionaires were lining up to be husked. A chief sticking points here is fleet assets. The game does not explain where they come from, but they're unlikely to be built during the war as the timescale is too short. Getting them before the war would have been tricky, as high end military tech would be both hard to get and expensive. If they could afford a fleet like we see in ME3, then the few billion spent reviving Shepard would've been chump change, not the major expenditure Miranda says it was.

Also, considering this is a setting where an invisible nanotech device which fits on your hand and is issued to every human colonist can build robots, various types of homing grenades and superheated metal blades in less than a second simply by being installed with the right programming, where a hidden off-the-map research base can be the size of a small city and where every corporation has a private army, why are we assuming that the infrastructure needed to build materiel is particularly difficult to acquire?

They would need infrastructure to build enough materiel to (kinda) successfully contest a galactic war, which would be a lot.

While the various merc groups and corporate soldiers exist, we are never given the impression that they could stand up to any major race's military in a shooting war, even on a small scale. Even the Skillian Blitz was routed by light Allaince ships, according to Presley in ME1. Not to say there isn't some bullshit rationalisation, but the game gives us nothing, we're just supposed to accept the TIM found a force capable of fighting the full force of the galactic fleets behind the sofa one day.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

They're pretty incompetent. None of their experiments ever actually worked; they tried to justify themselves as being about the ends justifying the means, but the ends were all shit anyway:

Akuze: Feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effects of feeding soldiers to thresher maws.
Rachni: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Husks: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Project Lazarus: Brought one guy back from the dead, then let the valuable cure data get blown up by mechs. Also, the guy they brought back eventually got loose and killed all their guys.
Pragia: Lost all test subjects bar one, who was too angry and traumatised to ever actually help them. Also, she got loose and killed all their guys.
Overlord: Hooked an autistic man up to the geth network in the most unnecessarily painful way possible, somehow surprised that they got loose and killed all their guys.
Collector Base: Broken clock is right twice a day. Not that it really mattered, since they couldn't save any of the colonists, ended up indoctrinated studying the technology, and they only succeeded because they let Commander Shepard run everything.

Then they got in bed with the Reapers and actually ended up with a string of successes. It just goes to show that these guys are at their best once they just accept the fact that they're stupidly evil and roll with it.

Well to be fair, they had some silver linings with the things they do.

With Lazarus, they sold the Data of the resurrection tech to the black market that pretty much earned back the difference and had Shepard running restoring or salvaging data from the botched or destroyed bases

Pragia: Biotic Implant research useful and Jack was more obsessed with terrorizing the local population and never really struck Cerberus assets until you recruit her.

Overlord: Said research was pivotal in developing the virus that turned the Geth into Reaper Servants

Collector Base: Incompetence was blamed on the Alliance which allowed them set up Sanctuary at Horizon. If they thwarted the attack, Horizon would be still loyal and resistant to Cerberus influence

 

[Elijin]

Here's another way of looking at it.

Here is a paramilitary organisation so big and successful that not one of these failures has slowed them down. Each one is but an annoying set of paperwork to fill out in filing their insurance claims.

And each branch seems nearly entirely autonomous, so they're probably still at it.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

Cerberus has a package deal with the employment office, they don't hire soldiers, scientists and engineers seperately.
They get "project deals".
They way it works is that they hire the scientists, engineers and the security detail in one go, with a discount.

By the time ME3 rolls around, they've lost so many scientists to their projects but still have most of their soldiers standing around, so by then they just say "fuck it!" and bet everything on a military victory.

 

[NortherWolf]

Everything Cerberus do ends with something running amok, in this respect they are very competent.

Thanks, made me laugh out loud. +1 Mind if I use that as a quote?

 

[Ninjat_126]

Cerberus in ME3 seems disproportionally powerful, but if you count up what they actually do they're involved in much less conflict than any other faction in the game. Turians, the Alliance, Salarians, Asari, Reaper forces all have fleets roaming around the place exploding each other. Cerberus attacks a research facility via a sleeper-agent and a bunch of mostly civilian settlements.

The main issue is that you fight Cerberus forces about as often as you fight the Reapers and Geth in ME3. But if you take another look, Shepard and Co. are usually the ONLY ones fighting the Cerberus forces in those situations, unlike the massive war sequences on Palaven or Earth.

This doesn't excuse the lack of cohesive explanations, but it's a good thing to consider nonetheless.

 

[Kingjackl]

Cerberus in ME3 seems disproportionally powerful, but if you count up what they actually do they're involved in much less conflict than any other faction in the game. Turians, the Alliance, Salarians, Asari, Reaper forces all have fleets roaming around the place exploding each other. Cerberus attacks a research facility via a sleeper-agent and a bunch of mostly civilian settlements.

The main issue is that you fight Cerberus forces about as often as you fight the Reapers and Geth in ME3. But if you take another look, Shepard and Co. are usually the ONLY ones fighting the Cerberus forces in those situations, unlike the massive war sequences on Palaven or Earth.

This doesn't excuse the lack of cohesive explanations, but it's a good thing to consider nonetheless.

At least they explain where all the foot soldiers are coming from. They were a little too common, but I suppose it's better than fighting nothing but husks the whole game. Considering Cerberus are basically the only group sided with the Reapers, who spend most of the war dominating everyone else, I like to think they get all their equipment by scavenging whatever the Reapers leave behind after their attacks.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Like I said earlier this creates some other big questions that don't have answers (most notably, why in hell resurrect Shepard?!?) but it's all there in the comics and novels.

Resurrecting Shepard makes a degree of sense, Harbinger immediately targeted Shepard after Sovereign was destroyed, then attempted to retrieve the remains, so presumably they wanted Shepard as an asset to use against the rest of the galaxy. It stands to reason that if Shepard could foil a Reaper that's never had a problem thousands of time before, the rest of the galaxy wouldn't stand a chance against him/her.

Of course putting non-indoctrinated agents in command of Shepard and letting them all go for a jog round the galaxy beforehand as a sort of test run against your previous agents of doom may have been a mistake, but even the Reapers were dealing with a situation they'd never faced before.

Thanks, made me laugh out loud. +1 Mind if I use that as a quote?

Go for it.

 

[mad825]

The Illusive Man was indoctrinated at the end of the First Contact War, decades before the events of the Mass Effect games. That happens in the comics, and it's not explicitly mentioned in the games, but it's established canon. It's not much of a leap from there to work out that Cerberus has always been controlled by the Reapers.

And how many people do you think cares or even bothers with the ME comics/novels? I'm even surprised they even bothered trying to make it cannon. ME might have been better off without as well

 

[keiji_Maeda]

Did no one at BioWare notice this?

Yeah, they noticed.

There's a conversation in the Citadel DLC when Shepard, EDI, Joker and a couple of others sit around listing all of Cerberus's projects that ended with the subjects getting out of control and killing all their guys.

It ends with someone pointing out that, hey, at least they brought Shepard back to life. To which Shepard replies, "Yep, then I ditched them and started killing all their guys."

Good on you sir. You just suceeded in making me want to honestly buy Bioware DLC. You have suceeded where Biowares PR-team failed. Might i suggest you seek gainfull employment with their PR department?

 

[Zhukov]

Did no one at BioWare notice this?

Yeah, they noticed.

There's a conversation in the Citadel DLC when Shepard, EDI, Joker and a couple of others sit around listing all of Cerberus's projects that ended with the subjects getting out of control and killing all their guys.

It ends with someone pointing out that, hey, at least they brought Shepard back to life. To which Shepard replies, "Yep, then I ditched them and started killing all their guys."

Good on you sir. You just suceeded in making me want to honestly buy Bioware DLC. You have suceeded where Biowares PR-team failed. Might i suggest you seek gainfull employment with their PR department?

Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm a known Bioware apologist, but, well... if you've ever enjoyed a Mass Effect game then you really owe it to yourself to play the Citadel DLC.

It's basically several hours of concentrated fan service (the good kind, not the anime panty shot kind) and more in-jokes than you can shake a stick at.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Except Sanctuary wasn't around before the war, and they have their stupid out of nowhere military from the start of the reaper invasion.

Why? because you fought like 30 of them on Mars? That's a military now?

Most of Cerberus actions (like invading Eden Prime and raiding Grissom Academy) are based on acquiring new subjects for integration. Do you think those were the only missions where they were doing that?

It's also clear, both from ME2 and ME3, that the actions of the council and alliance leadership in denying the existence of the Reapers have served to drive up Cerberus' recruitment.

Coupled with Sanctuary seeming to appeal primarily to the out of luck and desperate, based on what you hear from people the the game, I doubt many multi billionaires were lining up to be husked.

Except, as revealed routinely in dialogue. It cost a lot of money to go there which is why not everyone is shipping out. Where was that money being paid to again?

Considering Rupe Elkoss is envious of the profit margins on such a scheme, it's obviously making big damn money.

If they could afford a fleet like we see in ME3, then the few billion spent reviving Shepard would've been chump change, not the major expenditure Miranda says it was.

Why do you say so?

As pointed out in ME1, developing the Normandy SR-1 cost as much as a dreadnought. In ME2, Cerberus not only replicated that feat but improved on the design enormously. They clearly have money and shipbuilding facilities already.

Sure, there's a difference in scale, but then if I had a machine which made people loyal slaves I'm pretty sure I could use it to get things I wanted too.

They would need infrastructure to build enough materiel to (kinda) successfully contest a galactic war, which would be a lot.

My point is that the specifics of mass production in Mass Effect is never really dealt with. Why assume, for example, that you need a special factory to build tanks rather than.. you know, commandeering a civilian auto factory and reprogramming it with the (presumably illegal, but not unobtainable) tank building software. It's just an idea, but it fits in well with how most things seem to work in the Mass Effect universe.

While the various merc groups and corporate soldiers exist, we are never given the impression that they could stand up to any major race's military in a shooting war, even on a small scale.

Did you notice how most of the council's actions in ME1 and ME2 were based on a desire not to antagonize anyone in the terminus systems?

We're just supposed to accept the TIM found a force capable of fighting the full force of the galactic fleets behind the sofa one day.

Ahem..

I'm not sure "the full force the galactic fleets" really meant what it used to any more by the time ME3 rolled around.