Challenging and frustrating

[The_R3d_Fury]

So I've been playing Metal Gear Revengeance lately and it's brought up an old topic that I used to think about from time to time.

It seems that developers these days have crossed the line between challenging and frustrating.

A challenging game should be hard. It should make you try to improve your play style to become a better fighter/puzzle solver/etc. with the end result being an overwhelming feeling of satisfaction.

A frustrating game, however, is similar to a challenging game with the difference being that you don't want to improve yourself. Rather, you want to quit.

Contra is challenging. When I mess up in Contra it's my own fault. I get better and I come back to beat whatever boss I'm stuck on or get past whatever bad guys stand in my way.

Frustrating games, on the other hand, mess YOU up.

Nothing is more frustrating than dying at the end of a boss fight because the camera suddenly glitched and messed up your block, or messing up a grenade toss because the aiming arc is ever-so-slightly wrong. The knowledge that you would have gotten through something had it not been for the game's more unusual mechanics is horrible.

An example of this is the camera in Revengeance. Sometimes it'll just change without me telling it to. I assume that this is designed to make the game easier for the player so that you don't have to keep moving the camera every time you turn, but sometimes it's a little too sensitive.

In one of the boss fights about half-way through the game I was one hit away from victory. All I had to do was block this next attack and counter it. But that didn't happen. Why? Because the camera suddenly flicked to the right and my parry missed. And I died. And I quit (I'd been trying this one fight for close to an hour with no luck).

I'd love to know what everyone else thinks about this. Are the annoying mechanics part of mastering the game? Or should your performance rely on the actions of the characters without having to worry about the added control troubles?

 

[TehCookie]

What fight was it and what difficulty? The only boss I had issues with the camera was with Bladewolf since he jumps around so much even locked on the camera can't keep up. If you almost beat the boss once, it should be simple to do again since you should be learning how to do better as you play.

Though I don't see how you have bad aim with grenades is bad mechanics. It just sounds like you failed and are blaming it on the game because you don't like how it plays. I'm guessing the boss is Monsoon, and if you parry all his moves you don't need to bother with grenades, I couldn't aim either but you're not forced to (at least up to hard).

 

[Fireaxe]

My ultimate frustration: luck in strategy games.

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

Though I don't see how you have bad aim with grenades is bad mechanics.

It's because in some games the grenade arc (the little red thing that shows you the pay of the grenade) is sometimes off just enough to make you miss some vital throws. Tomb Raider sometimes shows misleading flight paths.

And yeah, the double Mistral/Monsoon fight. The problem is that I dodge a lot as well and, yes, while it is pretty easy to parry, some of his attacks are so close together that blocking becomes difficult and you take damage. I'm out of EM grenades and don't have any health, so I've been relying on dodging to wait for the perfect moment to strike. Problem is that sometimes the camera switches (I haven't been using lock on) and I'll suddenly switch direction and run right into a kick.

 

[Savagezion]

You want a frustrating game? Alice: Madness returns. Holy shit, that camera. I got it in the steam sale and it is pissing me off. It loves to throw you in a tiny space with a lot of enemies and the camera will totally fuck you trying to dodge. I can SEE where I am trying to dodge TO and for some reason its like the camera or some invisible wall is in my way and keep me from going that direction at all. Dodge down Alice, dodge down, dodge down, shit, the attack is landing try dodge right, AH! dodge up, dodge... dead. Understand an actual wall to my left, enemy to my right - cant dodge up or down because the game went retarded.

I am enjoying the game but EVERY time they throw me in a tiny space with like 6 bad guys I know I am gonna die a few times because of bullshit controls/camera. At least the game is gracious enough to not ALWAYS make me have to platform my way back to try the same fight. Thanks, American McGee, you asshole. The fights are hard enough as it is, having the controls be against me is infuriating.

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

I've since gotten past it, but only just. I had to face Sundowner with 3.5 health left.

My ultimate frustration: luck in strategy games.

What game is this? I can only think of the Civ series off the top of my head. I usually prefer games like starcraft and C&C (except for C&C 4).

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

I can SEE where I am trying to dodge TO and for some reason its like the camera or some invisible wall is in my way and keep me from going that direction at all.

That's exactly what I mean. If the problem is your own skill level, then fair enough. If the problem is that you have the skills but the game is making it unreasonably hard for you to use them then that's frustrating.

 

[Fireaxe]

My ultimate frustration: luck in strategy games.

What game is this? I can only think of the Civ series off the top of my head. I usually prefer games like starcraft and C&C (except for C&C 4).

Basically every second turn based strategy game will have some pointless luck based element -- critical hits, miss chance, whatever it may be.

 

[Savagezion]

I can SEE where I am trying to dodge TO and for some reason its like the camera or some invisible wall is in my way and keep me from going that direction at all.

That's exactly what I mean. If the problem is your own skill level, then fair enough. If the problem is that you have the skills but the game is making it unreasonably hard for you to use them then that's frustrating.

Yeah I also know the flight path grenade thing too. A couple times though I think I may have forced the game to show me a clear one when it wasn't really clear though if you know what I mean. Like trying to throw a grenade through a really tight spot. I try not to get too mad at the game then. Some games are worse than others. One game I can't remember as I sit here had a wacky grenade mechanic where they only threw with their left or right arm and I would constantly forget that the throw animation was only right or left handed and that constantly screwed up the flight path trying to throw them around a corner of the opposite hand. I would constantly throw them on the ground beside me as I would throw them into the wall I was hiding behind - though the flight path showed me throwing it out in front of my cover.

I think Alice: Madness Returns is a blast but it has some poor design in it. We've got a crappy camera, lets shove the player in a tight spot with lots of enemies and not fix the camera to accommodate such gameplay! It has "Z targeting" in the game and that REALLY screws the camera up but against some enemies it is crucial that you are in targeting mode. I am currently taking a break from an encounter where I have about 15-20 square meters to take out 3 hives that spawn flying mobs, and 6 other mobs 3 at a time. So really 6 enemies at once with 3 reinforcements. 2 are strong mobs too. That's chaos in a tiny box. I have almost beat them about 8 times in about 20 tries. That dodge not working because of the camera thing is the reason for about 15 of those deaths.

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

Basically every second turn based strategy game will have some pointless luck based element -- critical hits, miss chance, whatever it may be.

Yeah, I see what you mean now. Fire emblem plays like that. In those games you're supposed to factor in the chance element, but it kinda ruins the whole point of a strat game. It's more tactics in those cases.

To be fair, though, I do love fire emblem.

 

[Fireaxe]

Basically every second turn based strategy game will have some pointless luck based element -- critical hits, miss chance, whatever it may be.

Yeah, I see what you mean now. Fire emblem plays like that. In those games you're supposed to factor in the chance element, but it kinda ruins the whole point of a strat game. It's more tactics in those cases.

To be fair, though, I do love fire emblem.

I like Fire Emblem too, though I recall while playing the first English release on GBA things like this happened:

Lyn guarding a bridge (Lyn having ~30% crit), enemy attacks Lyn for 1/4 of her HP -- Lyn retaliates with 2 hits including a crit and the enemy dies dies, enemy attacks Lyn for 1/4 of her HP -- another 2 hits with a crit and, third enemy attacks Lyn for 1/4 of her HP -- another crit in reply, and then the fourth enemy kills her.. fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Admittedly getting 3 crits in 3 fights with with 1/3 chance to crit and 2 attacks per fight isn't impossible (though it's unlikely), but it's kind of infuriating when a strategy/tactics based game decides to behave improbably and screw up what in more than 50% of cases would be a perfectly valid strategy because the random number generator decided to give you the middle finger. Especially in a game with unit permadeath.

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

Especially in a game with unit permadeath.

I know what you mean. It's annoying when I make strategic decisions based on statistics and then the 3% chance of failure makes me lose one of my favourite units.

It's weird, though. I always re-start a mission when any of my units dies, but Fire Emblem: Awakening doesn't force you to play with permadeath on. Who knows? Maybe someday I'll encounter a mission hard enough and long enough to make me ok with sacrificing a unit to avoid replaying it.

 

[FoolKiller]

It seems that developers these days have crossed the line between challenging and frustrating.

That's not really a valid comparison. They don't deliberately make it frustrating. Camera issues have been around since Tomb Raider. It always creates problems. Even in a game with a great combat system like the Batman: Arkham games, the camera regularly fucks me and my combos up.

This isn't some evil ploy of a developer trying to make the game harder, its just lazy programming.

Now if you had a thread discussing the differences between Challenge and Difficulty then I would have quite a bit more to say on the topic. As it stands, cameras for 3D games range from unobtrusive to game breaking but I don't believe there was malice on the part of the devs.

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

That's not really a valid comparison

I was waiting for this comment.

I must admit that I strayed from the original topic a bit as I wrote my post, but at the same time my point still stands. Devs make games that have all of these issues in them - not issues that are obvious like the black screen in Fallout: New Vegas, but issues that affect Gameplay while remaining relatively low-key - but the fact that they're not fixed before the game drops is the point.

 

[Z of the Na'vi]

I'm curious as to which boss fight was the one that gave you trouble.

Surely it must be Bladewolf? Maybe Monsoon?

I know for a fact Monsoon was the one that gave me the most trouble.

 

[krazykidd]

For me, i think frustration only comes from , bugs and glitches. If the game plays and does what it is supposed to , the then fault is entirely on the player. I think blaming things on the devs is a cop out response because people don't want to admit that the suck at a certain section of a game , or a game in it's entirety.

 

[TehCookie]

Though I don't see how you have bad aim with grenades is bad mechanics.

It's because in some games the grenade arc (the little red thing that shows you the pay of the grenade) is sometimes off just enough to make you miss some vital throws. Tomb Raider sometimes shows misleading flight paths.

And yeah, the double Mistral/Monsoon fight. The problem is that I dodge a lot as well and, yes, while it is pretty easy to parry, some of his attacks are so close together that blocking becomes difficult and you take damage. I'm out of EM grenades and don't have any health, so I've been relying on dodging to wait for the perfect moment to strike. Problem is that sometimes the camera switches (I haven't been using lock on) and I'll suddenly switch direction and run right into a kick.

Lock on helps a lot to control the camera, and like I said you don't need to use grenades. The only time I've had to use them is rescuing one of the hostages in the city that was guarded by the Grad (and I could take my sweet time aiming and the enemies didn't move after I throw it).

Also if you want to get better, stop dodging and learn to parry. The game is made around parrying, and it sounds like dodging isn't working for you. If you're taking damage guarding aim for perfect parries so you don't get hurt and you deal damage. You can call the game annoying because there is a "right" way to play it, but it's not frustrating as long as you go with it instead of trying to play the game like it's something it's not.

 

[FoolKiller]

That's not really a valid comparison

I was waiting for this comment.

I must admit that I strayed from the original topic a bit as I wrote my post, but at the same time my point still stands. Devs make games that have all of these issues in them - not issues that are obvious like the black screen in Fallout: New Vegas, but issues that affect Gameplay while remaining relatively low-key - but the fact that they're not fixed before the game drops is the point.

I don't think that's possible. When you program something like Super Mario Bros, even though it was advanced for its time, the actual game is relatively simple from a coding point of view. With games including exploration and open worlds and such, its impossible to predict what a player will try to do or could do by accident. So the issues are usually not possible to deal with until they have to patch stuff. The only way to truly deal with it would be a beta test with thousands of people and that isn't feasible in many cases.

 

[scorptatious]

My ultimate frustration: luck in strategy games.

What game is this? I can only think of the Civ series off the top of my head. I usually prefer games like starcraft and C&C (except for C&C 4).

Basically every second turn based strategy game will have some pointless luck based element -- critical hits, miss chance, whatever it may be.

That's pretty much my one problem with the original Fallout games. Particularly late game.

No matter how prepared you are, no matter what kind of armor you're wearing, there's always the chance that an enemy will get lucky and pull off a random critical that instantly kills you. Sometimes doing damage that's twice the amount of health you have.

I really like the original Fallout games, but I just find that kind of obnoxious. If I die, I want it to be because I messed up, not because the game wills it.

Thankfully, the games allow you to save anywhere, so it's not too huge of a deal.

 

[FPLOON]

My ultimate frustration: luck in strategy games.

Then, stay the hell away from Odama... It's "luck" in strategy mixed with "luck" in pinball...

OT: Sonic Heroes is challenging...
Sonic '06 is frustrating...

Kingdom Hearts 1 is challenging...
Kingdom Hearts 2 is frustrating... in that it's not challenging...

"Bad mechanics" does not equal "challenge" unless it's a Silent Hill game... or Deadly Premonition...
Other than that, its "frustration" and/or "challenge" must be weight by how much "fun" you're having with said game regardless... That's how I see it...