Charizard And Greninja Join Super Smash Bros. 4 - Update

[Gizen]

ow that unique form of representation is gone, and instead of simply removing the Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon whom don't signify anything special in terms of representation anymore, we get Charizard as a standalone character. Yep, now he just represents another Gen 1 Pokémon,

In all fairness, I would argue that Charizard isn't just 'another Gen 1 Pokemon', but rather THE signature representative of Gen 1 (with Pikachu being more the signature pokemon of the franchise as a whole rather than Gen 1 specifically). He was the mascot of red version, the only version of the 3 to make it to North America in both the original generation and the remake (as Green never came to NA the first time, and Blue was never remade at all the second time). Not only that, but it was also the only coloured version to essentially be declared as canon over its opposite version, since Red becomes the final challenge of Gold/Silver using the original player character appearance while Blue has the Rival's sprite and is given the lowly post-game gym leader role. So I would argue of all Gen 1 pokemon other than Pikachu, Charizard is probably the most fitting.

That said, I still miss Mewtwo. I loved the way he played in Melee and Lucario does not compare. I also still want to see Jigglypuff return (along with Ness and Captain Falcon) if only because I'd hate for any member of the original 12 to be cut.

 

[2xDouble]

Greninja. Huh. Well... That's one way to sneak Strider Hiriyu into the game. Seriously, except for the Water Shuriken, he uses Strider's move set, even the Ragnarok as his Final Smash (is that supposed to be Night Slash?). He looked so much like Mewtwo in shadow I got excited there for a minute, but I guess this is cool too.

Yay, the most overrated Pokemon in existence + a random starter.

Nintendo must have been up at all hours to think this up.

On the contrary. It's "a freaking dragon" pokemon and "a freaking ninja" pokemon.

Charizard was a powerhouse for the Pokemon Trainer in Brawl and a staple pokemon from the very beginning of Smash (his pokeball release rate was slightly higher, in my experience). Furthermore, Charizard just got his own Mega-evolution, which is an ideal Final Smash to replace Triple Finish. There's very little reason not to allow Charizard to return. Besides, they confirmed Ridley is in the game (as a "boss fight" level mechanic), and that characters can have costumes that don't exactly resemble their original form ("Wire Mac"). Charizard gives them a way to sneak in a playable Ridley, which is the next best thing to actual playable Ridley.

Greninja, on the other hand, has become an absolute staple in competitive Pokemon, thanks to its Protean ability. Protean gives it guaranteed attack bonuses on any move it can learn, as well as the ability to manually control its typing for defense (that nobody ever does, but it's cool anyway). Greninja, competitively, is in the common "Overused" tier - one of only three Starters to make it - and could theoretically rival Uber-tiered Blaziken (who deserves to be in this game, by the way) as the most powerful starter. Besides... there can never be too many ninjas. (...oh wait, yes there can [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu]. heh)

Come to think of it, they could fairly easily implement stand-alone Venusaur or Blastoise too... but it's dangerously close to "too many pokemon" already.

Point is, they have very good reasons for including these two... despite my disagreeing with their choices. (where the F is Mewtwo!?)

 

[Hero of Lime]

Like I said on another thread, it would be nice to include a final form grass starter considering the other two are represented. If it was Serperior I would be so happy, and it would be an interesting character since it would move unlike any other fighter, being a snake and all.

Happy to see Greninja since it was my favorite of the new starters. Even though I really like Charizard, I am in the camp that thinks it gets a little too much spotlight.

 

[Story]

Am I the only one who really doesn't like Greninja? And it's not because to me he looks very OP. He's just really ugly, I mean really ugly. Maybe it's the tongue scarf? Or the fact he has triangles for hair?
Any way, my biases aside, I think they could have put any of the Pokemon X and Y starters in there and they would fit as fighters since they are based off of fantasy hero stereotypes. I guess the best of them got to be a fighter? Urgh, I can't stand to look at him...he's so goofy and I'm really shallow.

I guess I'm also one of the very few to mourn Pokemon Trainer? I thought he was a really cool idea. I'm willing to give Charizard a chance since his move set looks so neat but damn it, I like unique fighting styles like the pokemon trainer.

 

[Trishbot]

I still absolutely loathe Samus in her Zero Suit. It's practically become a fetish costume by this point, so dedicating an entire slot to her is extremely weird. You could perhaps argue that there are at least multiple Zeldas, but Zero Suit Samus and normal Samus taking up two spots on a roster still yearning for OTHER characters is about as disappointing as I felt when Dr. Mario was one of the special unlockable characters. Whoopdeedoo.

 

[daibakuha]

Gosh, if we're basing a Pokemon's worthiness on their competitive power, I guess Charizard is out of the question, with it's below-mediocre stats and crippling weakness to Stealth Rock.

Actually with the nerf to Stealth Rock, and Mega-Charizard X losing it's weakness, charizard has seen some competitive play recently.

So did the other Kanto starters. But I guess they don't count, because they're not Charizard.

Charizard got 2 megas, which is more than every other pokemon save 1, Mewtwo. It's also the most popular starter and a version mascot for 2 games.

Greninja is probably the most popular new pokemon from X/Y which is why he's included here. He's also fantastic in his own right, has a cool signature move and is the starter chosen for the anime. He's an ideal choice.

 

[Sould1n]

ow that unique form of representation is gone, and instead of simply removing the Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon whom don't signify anything special in terms of representation anymore, we get Charizard as a standalone character. Yep, now he just represents another Gen 1 Pokémon,

In all fairness, I would argue that Charizard isn't just 'another Gen 1 Pokemon', but rather THE signature representative of Gen 1 (with Pikachu being more the signature pokemon of the franchise as a whole rather than Gen 1 specifically). He was the mascot of red version, the only version of the 3 to make it to North America in both the original generation and the remake (as Green never came to NA the first time, and Blue was never remade at all the second time). Not only that, but it was also the only coloured version to essentially be declared as canon over its opposite version, since Red becomes the final challenge of Gold/Silver using the original player character appearance while Blue has the Rival's sprite and is given the lowly post-game gym leader role. So I would argue of all Gen 1 pokemon other than Pikachu, Charizard is probably the most fitting.

That said, I still miss Mewtwo. I loved the way he played in Melee and Lucario does not compare. I also still want to see Jigglypuff return (along with Ness and Captain Falcon) if only because I'd hate for any member of the original 12 to be cut.

You do raise some good points, though overall I feel it was better in the circumstance of Charizard being a part of Pokémon Trainer, as this allowed another aspect of the Pokémon series to be represented in SSB. I'd say that Mewtwo would have also worked better than Charizard for representation, simply for the case of being able to represent a different aspect of the Pokémon series, legendary Pokémon.

Overall my personal preference for the Pokémon reps is for Gen diversity, I haven't been a fan of the 3 Gen 1 Pokémon case that has applied to Melee, Brawl, and I assume this SSB (I doubt Jigglypuff will be removed, though in this case I consider that a good thing).

I guess I'm also one of the very few to mourn Pokemon Trainer? I thought he was a really cool idea. I'm willing to give Charizard a chance since his move set looks so neat but damn it, I like unique fighting styles like the pokemon trainer.

I am also disappointed at the loss of Pokémon Trainer, as Charizard alone I feel doesn't cut it for representation (though frankly I'd say that for any Pokémon rep which already has it's gen represented in playable form, not counting Jigglypuff due to original 12 tradition). In fact, the removal of transformation/swapping in the midst of battle for characters is the biggest disappointment for me for this game, maybe even the entire series. It makes little sense as to why they'd remove the unique Pokémon series representing aspect of the trainer, as well as making Samus into two separate characters.

Perhaps this is the first case of something being due to 3DS hardware limitations, though I think Olimar's decreased Pikmin count is also a result of this, as I just can't see why they'd remove a unique factor to quite a few characters. It boggles my mind.

 

[Gunner_Guardian]

Sweet Greninja made it in, definitely my favorite Gen 6 pokemon.

I know some people wanted Swift Swim Carracosta or something but at the end of the day unless your Jiggypuff only the A-list pokemon make it in.

 

[Sheen Lantern]

Actually with the nerf to Stealth Rock, and Mega-Charizard X losing it's weakness, charizard has seen some competitive play recently.

Charizard-X is still weak to rock.

Charizard has always seen competitive play. Regardless of whether it's actually worth a shit in battle.

Charizard got 2 megas, which is more than every other pokemon save 1, Mewtwo. It's also the most popular starter and a version mascot for 2 games.

Once again, I'm already fully aware that Charizard is overrated and over-marketed, no more convincing needed.

Greninja is probably the most popular new pokemon from X/Y which is why he's included here.

I would argue that's Talonflame.

 

[daibakuha]

Charizard-X is still weak to rock.

2x instead of 4x, combined with the nerf to stealth rock means that it's far more competitive now than it has been previously.

Charizard has always seen competitive play. Regardless of whether it's actually worth a shit in battle.

Once again, I'm already fully aware that Charizard is overrated and over-marketed, no more convincing needed.

Then why are you even wondering why they did this? These games have always included popular characters to major franchises.

I would argue that's Talonflame.

I don't think so. If you follow the pokemon community at all, Greninja is one of, if not the most popular pokemon to be released in a long time.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

I'm extremely excited for this game. I'm actually glad they made Charizard his own character - I didn't really care for Ivysaur and I only used Squirtle when it wasn't wise to use Charizard.

I AM disappointed at the lack of transformations, though. I don't mind not swapping between pokemon, but it does kind of suck to not be able to switch from Zelda to Sheik just whenever.

 

[Sheen Lantern]

Charizard-X is still weak to rock.

2x instead of 4x, combined with the nerf to stealth rock means that it's far more competitive now than it has been previously.

Unless you lead with Charizard, and the only reason you would want to do that is if you're doing that is if you're running Bellyzard, you're still going to have to switch in as Fire/Flying.

Then why are you even wondering why they did this?

Umm, I'm not. I'm expressing anger that they did.

I don't think so. If you follow the pokemon community at all

I do.

Greninja is one of, if not the most popular pokemon to be released in a long time.

One of, certainly. I still think Talonflame and Hawlucha are more generally loved.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Its like every time Nintendo realizes its not 2001 anymore they add a new character. Don't worry fanboys, NOW its good. Before? No, that was total crap. THIS is the real Smash Bros!

 

[Jiffex]

Umm, I'm not. I'm expressing anger that they did.

I know right? Why the hell are they forcing us to play these characters and not the ones we want to play.

 

[Apl_J]

I'm not seeing the issue with Greninja.

-Charizard is the epitome of the old school pokemon scene, and is perhaps the most recognizable aside from Pikachu who is already in the game. Greninja is popular in both casual and competitive scenes and represents the new school.

-He meshes well into a fighting game, unlike pokemon such as Klefki or Talonflame, who are both new, easily recognizable, and very good competitively.

-He is a foil for Charizard, who is a bulky, fire breathing dragon. Greninja is an agile, water ninja.

While I am a bit sad that Squirtle and Ivysaur are likely out, I can see why they'd pick Greninja to use.

 

[Epicspoon]

I don't care what new Pokemon are added as long as we keep Jigglypuff. Seriously Nintendo you better keep her (or him) in the game.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I'm OK with Charizard.
Overdone? Sure. But eh, it's one of the series' icons.