Cheating Allegations Lead to "Strip Search" of Chess Player

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
DoPo said:
. Mr Kurtenkov also says that a lot of them could be jammed using a simple device...however, there are two problems, with that - one, it can be bypassed by different types of tech which are not affected by it, two, it cannot actually be deployed in the tournament to begin with (it could interfere with pacemakers, for example).
What!?!?! You're trying to summarise with that claim?

What about a Faraday cage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

Blocks all EM waves used in wireless transmitters, doesn't affect pacemakers nor any medical devices and is not restricted by any communications authority as it doesn't block signals within a radius like an active jammer, it simply stops any radio or microwave radiation entering the cage.

These can be made very discrete, the principal is simple, it's like being surrounded by the antenna that absorbs the WAVES before the receiver can. And the receiver would most likely be extremely weak if it has to be so concealable. This stops mobile phones and everything similar.

Any system would utterly depend on an outside confederate to record each piece move and enter it into a machine to determine what the next move should be. With mobile phone tucked between his nuts or a fanciful device somehow inserted under the skin, can't have any data entered into it to tell him what the next move should be.

I thought Chess players were supposed to be smart.

Well, maybe smart with chess moves but not the common sense to do the bare minimum of research before declaring something non-viable.

And this is all so convenient, to say the cheating is undetectable then equally anyone can be accused, this fantasy is an inquisitor's wet dream, so to speak.
 

Xanex

New member
Jun 18, 2012
117
0
0
Don't know how else to say it but evidently chess is serious buisness!
 

MegaManOfNumbers

New member
Mar 3, 2010
1,326
0
0
....

Hold on, how the hell do you cheat at chess? Unless your fucking psychic or robotic, that shouldn't even be possible.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
8,665
0
0
Treblaine said:
DoPo said:
. Mr Kurtenkov also says that a lot of them could be jammed using a simple device...however, there are two problems, with that - one, it can be bypassed by different types of tech which are not affected by it, two, it cannot actually be deployed in the tournament to begin with (it could interfere with pacemakers, for example).
What!?!?! You're trying to summarise with that claim?
I'm summarising and relying the words of Mr Kurtenkov (and others), that's what I'm doing. I thought it obvious, seeing as I said as much.

A Faraday cage could work but it seems nobody thought to build one at the tournament, I assume. Ideally, you'd want the room shielded which means build it into the room. Which means, have the chess tournaments in only one (or very few) places at a time. That's before factoring in the expenses. Or make an actual cage and place people inside but, again, it's not quite so elegant and there are other complications, too (makes shooting the match a bit annoying, for example).
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
electric method said:
trying to apply math to how a GM approaches chess isn't quite a good idea.
Yes, on the surface - to someone who has never really tried it - it may seem that way.

But attaching giant fan to an oversized kite and riding the thing over the Kittyhawk dunes expecting the thing to fly equally "isn't quite a good idea", yet controlled flight was invented in America thinks to some Brothers trying precisely that. All aeroplane control systems descend from their solution to the flying problem.

And you know what, when they first did it EVERYONE thought they were frauds. They thought it was all faked, it was all a marketing stunt, and they said it was categorically impossible for them to succeed where other inventors with the funding of rich Industrialists and monarchies had repeatedly failed.

I don't want to be the modern equivalent of the person who called the Wright Brothers frauds, not over a matter of evidence, but refusal to recognise such lowly ones could achieve above that of the elites.

However he won, he deserves the respect and honour of all his victories till it is proven that he cheated.

electric method said:
Think of it this way, most, if not all, GM's have this series of books that comes out every year that deal exclusively with opening theory. Each one of those books is something like 800 pages long.
Going back to the Wright Brother's achievement, there were entire libraries full of books on aerodynamics that the Wright Brothers consulted.

Turns out it was a whole load of writing but most of it was useless, all the complexities and theories weren't backed up and over-complicated the problem. Over complicated. If it takes 800 pages to summarise your opening strategy, then that is such a fiendishly convoluted strategy it's always going to favour the raw power of a machine.

What if he's not trying to think like a machine, but think like a human.

Remember, this guy designs chess-beating computer algorithms, he knows chess.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Old elites all reading the same same 800-page books thinking in the same way have been made fools of before...
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
DoPo said:
Treblaine said:
DoPo said:
. Mr Kurtenkov also says that a lot of them could be jammed using a simple device...however, there are two problems, with that - one, it can be bypassed by different types of tech which are not affected by it, two, it cannot actually be deployed in the tournament to begin with (it could interfere with pacemakers, for example).
What!?!?! You're trying to summarise with that claim?
I'm summarising and relying the words of Mr Kurtenkov (and others), that's what I'm doing. I thought it obvious, seeing as I said as much.

A Faraday cage could work but it seems nobody thought to build one at the tournament, I assume. Ideally, you'd want the room shielded which means build it into the room. Which means, have the chess tournaments in only one (or very few) places at a time. That's before factoring in the expenses. Or make an actual cage and place people inside but, again, it's not quite so elegant and there are other complications, too (makes shooting the match a bit annoying, for example).
No one thought of that? Then they didn't think much at all! They weren't thinking about robust anti-cheating strategies, it seem they only thought enough of how to suit their foregone conclusion that cheating was impossible to detect, so empowering themselves to declare whoever they like is a cheater at their whim.

Expenses? Don't be ridiculous. It's ANY wire! And they forked out enough for live no-delay internet streaming which if anything would only help cheating.

It's clear even after being informed about this you don't know what a Faraday cage entails. You've probably walked into a Faraday cage before and not known it, the only clue being suddenly losing all signal on your phone.

It doesn't have to be a cage with thick bars, a veil of thin wires is more than enough, come on, the entire reputation of Chess is at stake and still the feet dragging of "oooh, it's too hard". But not too hard to be an inquisitor!
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
8,665
0
0
Treblaine said:
No one thought of that? Then they didn't think much at all! They weren't thinking about robust anti-cheating strategies
I think there is more about your suggestion than you actually realise.

Treblaine said:
Expenses? Don't be ridiculous. It's ANY wire! And they forked out enough for live no-delay internet streaming which if anything would only help cheating.
It's any wire, yes, but you have to install it, also work around it for the equipment. If you want to build it into the wall, that's fucking expensive, too.

Treblaine said:
It's clear even after being informed about this you don't know what a Faraday cage entails.
Yeah, thanks for that - I do know enough to tell you that it's not exactly high priority thing to build around a room with a tournament in. You would do it if you suspect there would be cheating to begin with, not start wrapping the area when you first hear about it.

Treblaine said:
Remember, this guy designs chess-beating computer algorithms, he knows chess.
Actually, I've been scouring Google for this and...it seems surprisingly lacking on any mention of him making chess software. The only info to that effect is what is quoted here and elsewhere (from the same source). In fact, all the Bulgarian media covering this scandal only say he's a computer programmer by trade, that's all. I can tell you he's doing first year pedagogy, though. Also, he came second in a chess tournament in Bulgaria just a couple of months ago (21 November), too. Also, there seems to be a Borislav Ivanov who is a web developer but I have no idea if it's the same guy or not it sort of seems he isn't but I don't really know - the name is quite common (there is a business man, an actor, a karate instructor, a weight lifter, and a cyclist all coming up in the searches).

It's almost if...it's easy to be banging on about one thing if it supports your position, isn't it? Don't worry, I'm continuing my Google searches, I'll notify you if I find any actual proof he is what the news claim he is.
 

electric method

New member
Jul 20, 2010
208
0
0
Here is the thing about theory in chess; it is thoroughly tested before it becomes accepted as mainline theory. These are not novelty lines or one off uses. What theory actually is; is the best move, or series of moves for a specific position. Now, theory is refuted all the time, especially opening theory but, those lines are included in books because they can be used upon an unwary or unsuspecting opponent.

A very good example of a very tested opening with a lot of theory is the Petroff's Defense. This is an opening GM's play when they are looking for a draw, or only need a draw. In many of it's lines, because it has been played so much, the result is almost always a draw at high level play. In many ways this opening hasn't seen a lot of theoretical improvement because deviating from the established "best moves" almost always results in an inferior position or an outright losing one.

Anyhow, theory for chess is not the same as say, the theory of flight. Current theory for chess is the result of hundreds of years and millions of games. It is always evolving and growing and master level players must be aware of this.
 

Garrett

New member
Jul 12, 2012
148
0
0
Xanex said:
Don't know how else to say it but evidently chess is serious buisness!
Ninja'd. But seriosuly, this is hilarious. Even if he did cheat, chess players are so butthurt over losing to computer, that it's really sad in a funny kind of way. While I never was more than an occasional player (and didn't play in many years now) I never had any qualms about losing to AI. I could never beat those fuckers anyway. I could beat real people that beat AI but the same AI that was badly beaten by a player I beat would destroy me...

Treblaine said:
Chess used to be considered the pinnacle of thought
I always wondered about this mentality with shougi and go being around...
 

Anatoli Ossai

New member
Sep 5, 2012
26
0
0
DoPo said:
weirdguy said:
they may have to check to see if he's a robot
That got me thinking - what if he is? Is there a rule that only living people can be in the tournament? Imagine that "Sir, we just found out that half the people on the tournament are robots, what do we do?
actually yes, the tournament was open to grandmasters, this implies humans. Symbiotes, cyborgs and Computers all run code to perform tasks which gives them distinct advantages (or disadvantages) over human competitors. Chess like poker is both mathematical and intuitive. The latter skill a handicap that can be exploited by grandmasters which computers do not have.

dpak said:
Secondly, there is no such thing as statistical proof of cheating.
Chess isn't only a number Game. And its very easy to analyze previous games styles of players and come up with games styles. The human element. Whats more likely? That an average chess master increased his IQ by 40 points and now beats grandmasters? or there's an elephant in the room? Chess is as old as civilization itself. we know every single way to play the game. All we do now is refine endings, openings and theories. And this mans predecessors didn't display this sort of jump in potential mid life (hell even the plasticity of the brain decreases as you get older i.e. the ability to learn new things)

The Wykydtron said:
Maybe he just studied the best chess playing computer patterns towards all the chess strats and learned/copied them from memory.
Right, because no one's ever tried that before....derp. How do you think you become a grandmaster? Everyone studies my friend. The C- High school student doesn't suddenly start performing better than a NASA enegineer because he "studied harder" Lolwut?!

DiamanteGeeza said:
He's doping.

Give him a few months and he'll confess all to Oprah.
I concurr =p

Either way I'd like to know how this plays out. Lots of people cheat at chess. He's probably just found a way to perfect it.
 

hitheremynameisbob

New member
Jun 25, 2008
103
0
0
There are only a couple people here who've demonstrated a likely background in chess, and I would encourage others to listen more than speak when they're dealing with a topic they actually have no background in, or, as in my case, at least defer to those with the requisite experience and acknowledge our own limitations. Of course, this is the internet, so the opposite approach is the norm. I'm speaking as someone with only a very limited background in professional chess who had quite similar misgivings about the suggestion of foul play. Of course my initial reaction to the accusations of cheating was that a bunch reactionary, grumpy old farts were angry that this new guy discovered the secret new training method that has all the chess doctors angry (lol internet ad), but after hearing from DoPo and electric method I was encouraged to look into it myself. The game analysis DoPo posted (and the response video linked in its description on youtube) was very informative and those, along with a couple trips to some chess forums for a little additional reading convinced me of the improbability of someone accomplishing this without some illicit aide. Specifically, when that video examines specific moves and describes how and why humans would be unlikely to make such moves, the point really comes through.

Look, it's a common reaction in situations where we don't really know what people are talking about to try and establish a comparison to something we -do- know, but that approach almost always leads to us trying to compare apples to oranges and asserting a false equivalence. I don't think anyone here is saying that they know beyond any doubt this guy cheated, but it's really not looking good on the "reasonable" doubt front. The odds of someone suddenly being able to play like a computer would to such a great extent beyond what other players have been able to accomplish, and to then use that type of play to perform so uncharacteristically well appear so minuscule that, at the very least, our default assumption SHOULD be that he cheated. This isn't a courtroom; nobody's going to jail if we're wrong, but we'd be fools to bet against the claim of cheating. The odds just don't swing that way.

What's apparent from this instance is that professional-level chess needs to adapt and find ways to prevent repeat occurrences, because if they don't it will keep happening. Whether that involves building transmission-proof rooms or using jammers or having the damned players go at it naked, there needs to be a new standard for this, and it needs to start with a conversation between players and organizers about where the line for intrusiveness goes. Being such a "civilized" and storied game, chess has, it seems, lagged behind in keeping up with modern cheating efforts. I think we all agree that needs to be remedied.
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
hitheremynameisbob said:
I don't think anyone here is saying that they know beyond any doubt this guy cheated, but it's really not looking good on the "reasonable" doubt front.
Still condemning the man without evidence. Without even trying to look for evidence or even admitting that evidence would be desirable.

Look, these Chess tournaments can just go on as they might have been with a nice relaxed laissez-faire attitude, and not put any effort into preventing anything but overt cheating and not being particularly concerned if it could be happening unless it's super obvious and proof is right there. It's just a game after all, shake hands afterwards and just depend on good sportsmanship.

Or they can take it seriously with actual measures to prevent the player making outside communications, such as discrete screening which will add to the player's privacy and surely enhance their concentration as well as eliminate any worry on their mind of possible outside communication. And other simple methods like asking them to take off their shoes before or after a tournament.

What they can't do is have it both ways, do nothing to help prove their players are not cheating then become grand inquisitors accusing people of cheating based on spurious and subjective interpretation of player trends.

Because at the moment they are putting EVERY SINGLE CONTENDER'S REPUTATION in jeopardy to be accused of cheating if they happen to perform too well in the wrong way, and no mechanism to dispel accusations of cheating.
 

EHKOS

Madness to my Methods
Feb 28, 2010
4,815
0
0
You work around something long enough you tend to emulate it. Maybe he just got better?