Chromosomal Confusion

[AgentDarkmoon]

I'm completely fine with referring to people as the gender they want to represent themselves as. But to me, if you have a Y chromosome, regardless of how many X's are involved in the rest of it, you are a male (thereby taking care of X0/XXX/XXY). I'm a scientist, I go by the definitions of biology and not your mental psychology. You may be a male who is really/mentally a female, but your body was created as a males (and vice versa). You've altered the natural state of your body biology to change genders (through drugs, surgery, etc). Perhaps one of these days they will change the standards of what makes a 'male' or 'female' on the biological level (such as xy-fems and xx-males), but until then (to me) a Y chromosome makes a male.

I'm certainly not going to bring it up or make an issue of it, and it never leaves my head unless someone directly asks me. I will think of the person in the terms that they desire. But I know deep down inside, that that person is really of the opposite. And amazingly enough, I'm capable of knowing something and having it not affect my decisions or actions in any manner.

I don't know if I agree with the "You are what you choose to be. You are what you are. Someone calls themselves a female it doesnt matter about the biology, they are who they are in their head. The mind is what matters." argument. Just because I'm a superhero in my mind doesn't mean I can do anything special in the real world. And just because I'm a nice guy in my mind doesn't mean I'm not a homocidal sociopath in the real world. You're not just who you are in your head- you're what you are in the real world. And thus, to me, it comes to an argument of chromosomes versus genitalia.

Regardless. I'll call you what you want to be called, and treat you as that gender, despite how I personally feel on the matter. And that's all that matters. Giving you the respect and simple human dignity you deserve. I don't have to agree with what you say.

 

[Lokithrsourcerer]

In my Legal Issues class, the professor brought to our attention a case from several years ago in which a news-paper printed a story that the "first female president" of some college student organization was in fact a male who had had a sex change several years before. The person in question sued for violation of privacy and won.

Now, normally newspapers can claim a story is "news-worthy" and that normally gets them off the hook in such cases, but not here. When the professor asked the class should the paper have printed the story, one of the girls in the back said "No, because it's no body's business if she was a guy before or not. She's the first female president and that is all that matters." A young man then raised his hand and said "But, she's not the first female president, she had a sex-change."

The hate-filled murmur that arose was stunning. I added "He has a point. If you take this woman's blood and run a genetics test on it, she will have an X and a Y chromosome. How she sees herself, how she wants to be treated or seen by others is up to her, but Science says she is a male."

That only made things worse and the professor had to change the subject.

After class I started thinking; the Gay-Lesbian-Bi movement has made the argument that people should not be judged by their sexuality, a view I support. Who you have sex with or how you see yourself is your own business and you should not be discriminated against because of it. HOWEVER, despite what you think about yourself or what you DO to yourself, in 2000 years when they dig up your bones and test your DNA you will be labeled as a male or a female.

Personally, I believe we should reserve the words "male" and "female" for the field of science to describe the biological, the genetic coding, of an individual, in much the same way as we use "marsupial" or "reptile" to describe a certain collection of animals. And while saying that an animal is "feline" does conjure to mind a set of possible attitudes and traits, the animal in question is just as likely to be friendly and want to cuddle as it is to be fierce and want to eat your face; so, too, should "male" and "female", in my mind.

What are your thought?

in terms of the question of the first female president thing despite the sex change she would still be the first female in every important sense.

the thing to remember is that what is worthy about the achievement is not make-up of her DNA or the contents of her pants but the fact that she has achieved the position despite the inequality or difference in attitude towards women in that job. As until the new article was released no one know she had had a sex change she would have still had to deal with the problems and overcome the same obstacles as any other women so it is still the same achievement. and the journalist should be set adrift with all the other journalists and the politicians as well

 

[Slippers]

The system of XX - Female, XY - Male works. It has worked for years and it will continue to do so. Of course there are exceptions, but guess what, shit happens and it just so happens that someone will get the shitty end of the stick.

So basically your rule works. Except when it doesn't. But you don't care.

No system is perfect, no system is fail proof or fool proof. However, as whole, they work.

No engineer is going to scrap a project. because there is a 0.1% chance that an erroneous result might be given.

Some people can't see 3d, some people can't recognise red from green, some people can't hear stereo sound, ect... And if you just happen to be one of the lot that can't do any of the mentioned above? Well, it simply sucks to be you.

Why? Because on a whole, the system works and in the end of the day, that is what matters.

The genetic illnesses you are speaking about occur in a rate of one in ten million, to all doctors, biologists and the like. That's an Anomaly, not a new sex or something else, just an anomaly.

 

[Okysho]

The published article denied her of the right to be a female as it highlighted her past gender and so allowed for her current status as a female to be questioned, therefore they were wrong to print it. The thing to remember here is that although she becomes the "first female president", the fact that she is female here is immaterial as we (as civilised human beings) recognise that males and females are equal. Using this equality as a base, anyone who then brings to the fore the fact that she is used to be male is highlighting this fact not in the interest of societal well-being (i.e. a man or woman would be better at the job), but in the interest of generating discussion at the expense of someone else's quality of life and right to be seen as how they wish.

This probably is the best way to sum up the political situation of the article. I agree 100%. It's the 21st century. men and women are equals. There's no weird oppressive stuff like back in the 20s.

In terms of science, yeah you'll have to genetically classify them as male. But this is on a medical level, not a level of lifestyle. The only time this type of switch comes into play is when there are physical problems with the body or through sex. (assuming that he/she didn't go through any genital surgery)

If you want to argue that he/she still thinks like a guy this is not always the case. With enough hormones and training, you can tech the human mind to do just about anything. I'm not talking about hypnosis, I'm leaning more towards mind conditioning and learning.

If it looks and acts like a female, unless we're giving them a physical or having sex, who are we to judge?

 

[Wutaiflea]

In answer to the professor's question, I think it would've been fine to run such an article with the lady's permission- there's nothing wrong with positive press for transexuals.

However, the way I see it, if the person in question had been reassigned as a female before they ran for the presidency of insert-organisation-name-here, then they should be considered female from a societal point of view.
Scientifically, her DNA may mark her as male, and I understand that from a medical viewpoint, she will always have that, but mentally, she is female. By undergoing gender reassignment, and living her life as a woman, she deserves to be counted with us.
The whole buzz of "first female president" is created from a woman overcoming any sexual prejudice and taking over a job previously held by a man that many years ago, she would not have been permitted to do. How exactly, is a transgendered woman any less affected by sexual discrimination or bias? Why is her achievement cheapened by being transexual?

As such, the article just isn't newsworthy and she was right to sue.

 

[WhatHityou]

She got a sex change to be a woman and as such she is one.

 

[Joepow]

If you want to argue that he/she still thinks like a guy this is not always the case. With enough hormones and training, you can tech the human mind to do just about anything. I'm not talking about hypnosis, I'm leaning more towards mind conditioning and learning.

Actually, as nekoali pointed out earlier, the brain of a transgender person is almost identical to that of a person of the opossite sex.

Secondly, medical science and physiology have confirmed that there are people who are indeed born to the wrong gender. They may have the chromosomes of one sex, yet examinations and MRIs show that their brain structure is very similar, almost identical to the other sex. So it is a physical truth that some people, their bodies say one thing, but their brains say something else.

So she never thought like a guy, she always thought as a woman.

 

[Lucifus]

The brain as well as the body has genders. Its completely possible to be a male in body but your mind is female. However the gender argument is completely subjective.

 

[Lieju]

No engineer is going to scrap a project. because there is a 0.1% chance that an erroneous result might be given.

Some people can't see 3d, some people can't recognise red from green, some people can't hear stereo sound, ect... And if you just happen to be one of the lot that can't do any of the mentioned above? Well, it simply sucks to be you.

Why? Because on a whole, the system works and in the end of the day, that is what matters.

The genetic illnesses you are speaking about occur in a rate of one in ten million, to all doctors, biologists and the like. That's an Anomaly, not a new sex or something else, just an anomaly.

It might be a workable system in day-to-day life, although I highly suspect you don't go and ask everyone you meet what chromosomes they have, and rather base your opinion of their sex on something else, most likely the physical appearance.
But using the same system to define rights of people, for example, would be a different matter.
And those conditions are way more common than one in ten million. It depends on the definition we use, but the estimates vary from 0.1% to 1,7% of the population. It's pretty common for a baby to born with genitalia that's not clearly neither, but they are usually "corrected" right away.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

You are male if you have an XY(ZZ) chromosome.
You are female if you have an XX(ZW) chromosome.

I couldn't care less how you want to be perceived.

A lot of the people have responded with long elaborate paragraphs but in the end said just this^.

And you're right, as hard as that fact might be for some people to accept. There are anomalies and exceptions to the rule, but it doesn't make you any less wrong.

So... Why do you choose this way of differentiating who is a man and who is a woman? Do you in day-to-day life ask everyone you meet what chromosomes they have before treating them as male or female?

 

[PurplePlatypus]

She was the first female president and it was rather an invasion of privacy.

We don?t determine gender based on the chromosomes, hell we hesitate to determine sex by it considering the hormonal treatments and physical changes people go through to have their sexes changed. In our everyday live be do no go around demanding people to show what their chromosomes happen to be so we can decide what gender they are.

The only time it ever is mentioned is when an openly transgendered person walks in and suddenly we demand they prove themselves in a way we expect nobody else to. That is why it's generally a privet issue because people have better things to do then listen to and try to meat such demands.

When gender becomes purely a matter of what chromosomes we have get back to me about it.

 

[Hashime]

I agree with the OP. Regardless of your appearance you are either a male or a female. I do not care that you view your self differently, I only care if you have a Y chromosome.

 

[dementis]

I agree with this post, but as long as the individual doesn't use any oppurtunity to bring up the fact they're transgender I don't really care I'll treat 'em how they wanna be treated.

 

[Serenegoose]

To anybody who thinks chromosomes define sex: prove that you're XX or XY, or accept that since we don't know what sex you are, you probably shouldn't be allowed to claim that you're male or female based on simple 'cosmetics' like what your body looks like or the ever vapid 'how you feel'.

Maybe we can come up with an alternative for you. "potential male" or "potential female." Because until you get those results back on precisely what your chromosomes are, it's pretty damned presumptuous for you to claim a sex.

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

the thing is, sex and gender are not the same thing, never have been, and should not be treated as such under any circumstances. people are born with their biological sex, and that will always be true. but gender is a part of the personality, also inborn, that doesn't always match the outside body. if people identify as a certain gender, and change their appearance to match, it is as impolite to refer to them by their biological sex as it would be is you used the opposite gender's pronoun to refer to someone whose sex and gender did match. basically, a girl is a girl no matter the body she's born in. a boy is a boy no matter what body he's born in. if you refer to any woman as "he," or any man as "she," you're being rude and ignorant. the woman in the story should not be referred to as a man when she clearly does not think of herself as such.

 

[chinangel]

lot's of opinions here, may as well put my own two cents in.

As a transsexual, I hate the XX = female, XY = male thing. "AND THAT'S THE WAY IT IS!"

I'm kinda living proof that this is BS, as are many others in the world. That is NOT the way it is, and dumbing it down doesn't make you appear smart.

 

[drisky]

I don't think it matters really, being the first transgender president seems way more of an accomplishment than first female anyways. Society judges them more harshly than they do women. I try to put little emphasis on gender anyways, so calling people what they want to be called is fine with me, there is not that much beyond physical things that make us different so I don't need to over analyze peoples true nature or anything like that.

 

[Slippers]

No engineer is going to scrap a project. because there is a 0.1% chance that an erroneous result might be given.

Some people can't see 3d, some people can't recognise red from green, some people can't hear stereo sound, ect... And if you just happen to be one of the lot that can't do any of the mentioned above? Well, it simply sucks to be you.

Why? Because on a whole, the system works and in the end of the day, that is what matters.

The genetic illnesses you are speaking about occur in a rate of one in ten million, to all doctors, biologists and the like. That's an Anomaly, not a new sex or something else, just an anomaly.

It might be a workable system in day-to-day life, although I highly suspect you don't go and ask everyone you meet what chromosomes they have, and rather base your opinion of their sex on something else, most likely the physical appearance.
But using the same system to define rights of people, for example, would be a different matter.
And those conditions are way more common than one in ten million. It depends on the definition we use, but the estimates vary from 0.1% to 1,7% of the population. It's pretty common for a baby to born with genitalia that's not clearly neither, but they are usually "corrected" right away.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

I've looked at the link, nothing said there is frequent enough to warrant reconsideration. 0.1-1.7 is not a lot either.
Given the evidence you supplied, I still call it - just an anomoly to the rule.

Get me something that has an occurrence rate of 5+%, then we can start talking about it.

Yes, I do judge gender on looks, but how many transgendered people do you think there are? The first link in google when I typed "frequency transgender" gave me 1 to 250-500. These are not numbers I sincerely care about. Basing it on statistics alone, looking at someone and saying that they are a girl, based on looks alone it's going to take 375 tries until I get one wrong.

 

[Okysho]

If you want to argue that he/she still thinks like a guy this is not always the case. With enough hormones and training, you can tech the human mind to do just about anything. I'm not talking about hypnosis, I'm leaning more towards mind conditioning and learning.

Actually, as nekoali pointed out earlier, the brain of a transgender person is almost identical to that of a person of the opossite sex.

Secondly, medical science and physiology have confirmed that there are people who are indeed born to the wrong gender. They may have the chromosomes of one sex, yet examinations and MRIs show that their brain structure is very similar, almost identical to the other sex. So it is a physical truth that some people, their bodies say one thing, but their brains say something else.

So she never thought like a guy, she always thought as a woman.

That's more to what I was getting at. Having not really covered in in behavioural psych, I wasn't about to start spewing stuff I didn't know anything about. Physical traits can only define something so much. This is why we have homosexuals and bisexuals in the first place. I find it strange that this world still has trouble excepting that people are all different from each other... It's kinda sad really.

edit: Just read Neko's post. Said it much better than I ever could. I remember reading something about this a long time ago, but again, not my area of experties...

 

[Chefodeath]

It really depends on how badly he/she was flaunting it in other people's faces. The only time being a woman in political power is laudible is when you've had to fight against the discrimination of being a woman to get there. This person most of life as a male, which to me, makes it decidedly unfemale.

And frankly, I'm sick of trannies insisting we take their gender fantasies as reality. What you do with your body is your business, but I reserve all the rights to be creeped out by you and keep a distance.

 

[nekoali]

If you want to argue that he/she still thinks like a guy this is not always the case. With enough hormones and training, you can tech the human mind to do just about anything. I'm not talking about hypnosis, I'm leaning more towards mind conditioning and learning.

Actually, as nekoali pointed out earlier, the brain of a transgender person is almost identical to that of a person of the opossite sex.

Secondly, medical science and physiology have confirmed that there are people who are indeed born to the wrong gender. They may have the chromosomes of one sex, yet examinations and MRIs show that their brain structure is very similar, almost identical to the other sex. So it is a physical truth that some people, their bodies say one thing, but their brains say something else.

So she never thought like a guy, she always thought as a woman.

As a point to bring up in response to this... Some may know already, I am pretty open about it, but I am a transgender woman. I can say with certainty in my own personal experience.. I never in my life thought like a male does. Physically (and possibly genetically, I haven't tested it) I was born with a male body. I was forced to socialize like a boy growing up. And I always, /always/ felt wrong. I tried to pretend, I tried to be like the boys around me, but it was an alien thing to me. I was far more comfortable thinking and acting like a girl... but whenever any of that slipped through, as it often did, I was subject to derision, bullying, emotional and sometimes physical abuse from those around me. Including my own family. So I tried to hide those thoughts as best I could... but I could never 'think like a boy'... So anyone saying that I am a man despite the fact that I look like, live like and think like a woman just because some accident of birth is rejected my entire existence and right to live as I wish to live. All those people who say 'What about black people w ho want to be white, or this person who thinks they are a cat' etc etc are just straw man arguments, because that is NOT what this discussion is. It is what is more important, a person's thoughts, feelings, presentation, and social status over a genetic test. Something that most people never even get.

For those that say genetics are the only determining factor... Stop and imagine for a moment that you for some reason has a genetic test done and discovered that you are one of the rare intersex people who has chromosomes different from physical appearance. It can and has happened that someone has lived their entire life as for instance, a man, but discovered that they actually have XX chromosomes. How would you react? Would you suddenly discard an entire lifetime of experiences and start living as a woman because that's what your genetics say? Would you struggle with your gender identity? What if everyone found out that you are genetically female, even though you look, act, think, feel like a male? But people denied what you really are because of some unseen genetic quirk? How would that make you feel? Well, transgender people go though that their entire lives. People want to deny who and what they are because of something they never see, choosing to believe that over all the evidence presented to the contrary.

Perhaps more importantly.. WHY is it so important to you to identify someone you've never me, or only know casually as something other than what they present themselves as? Why is someone's medical history so important to you?