Clegane Bowl, a different perspective

[CrazyCajun777]

First of all, SPOILERS for the novels, novellas, and the show! Second of all, I will be focusing on the books and not the show.

Clegane Bowl is currently a topic on many folks' mind and something that has received quite a bit of hype *insert explosions with "Who Let the Dogs Out!"playing obnoxiously loud* Many seem rather enthusiastic about the prospect of Sandor fighting Gregor to determine the guilt of Cersei. However, I would like to offer something different. This largely has to do with my understanding of the character of Sandor Clegane.
So, first I would like to state while most people's version of Clegane Bowl is uninteresting to me.

1. How?
So, many predict that in the trial to determine Cersei's guilt or innocence Sandor will fight Robert Strong (who I will refer to as Gregor for the remainder of this post as most will agree that Robert and Gregor are one in the same). My first response is, "how?" We have to keep in mind that while Sandor, in the eyes of many, may have found religion, he is still a wanted man, guilty of desertion, and accused of terrible acts of violence. Sandor deserted the army and the king's guard at the battle of Blackwater Bay. He is also blamed for the raid of Saltpans which, as Lady Mariya Darry put it, "was the work of some fell beast in human skin." So I have to ask, how will Sandor manage to get into King's Landing with his head still attached to his shoulders? I understand that many feel he will have the protection of the faith, but it seems like political suicide for the faith to back such a man, and that the faith would have to somehow overrule the very laws of the kingdom. This alone seems like Clegane Bowl as described by many, to be an unlikely possibility.

2. Why?
When discussing Clegane Bowl I feel strongly to ask this question. Why exactly would Sandor Clegane want to do this? Yes, Sandor hates his brother, but for all he knows, Gregor is dead. Robert Strong is a big fellow, sure, but that is a big gamble for Sandor to storm all the way over to the capital risking being hanged on sight to convince the high septon to let him fight a guy who might be his undead brother. The argument is that Sandor is 100% into religion and thus gets the church's support to enter kings landing and that he is fighting purely in the name of the gods and not for revenge. I strongly object to this. This suggests that Sandor's biggest character moment will have happened "off screen." He'll just show up and be a completely different person. This is not the same as Gregor's change, Gregor was a villain altered by magic to be a slightly different villain. Sandor is a complex character turned very very simple by a near death experience and some kind words out of the sight of the audience. This would be a simplification of a great character. If you were to alter a fairly important character so radically, the least you could do is show us how this occurred.

3. What next?
Ok, so let us say that Sandor shows up at Cersei's trial and kills Gregor in a more permanent fashion. If Sandor doesn't die then I have to ask, "now what?" Sandor no longer has any major motivation other than to just be a lacky of the faith. The character will just go back to the quite isle and hang out? Best case scenario is that Sandor was really on a quest for vengeance and not so interested in religion and after crossing Gregor off of his list he just shrugs and goes finds something better to do. Either version is far too neat and simple, and both ignore the complex character of Sandor and what it is that makes him so charming.

My biggest problem with Clegane bowl is the why. There are really only two possible answers:

1. Sandor has found religion.

As previously stated I hate this as it simplifies the character and makes his most important scene of the character's arc happen away from the audience

2. Sandor is out for revenge

Not quite as bad as it may not destroy Sandor's character, but it also over simplifies him and detracts from what makes him such a great character.
That last bit is important to me "detracts from what makes him such a great character." So, what makes Sandor so great? Well, if you have time, I'd be tickled to express my opinion on the subject.


Why Sandor is GRReat

In my opinion Sandor Clegane encapsulates what ASOIAF is. He is pure "badass" and cynicism that is really hiding the soul of an idealist. Sandor Clegane is not some cheesey tough guy bully who spouts glib remarks about the futility of everything and the fallacy of goodness. Sandor is a fallen dreamer. A little boy who played with toy knights and knows the songs like that of Florian and Jonquil. A boy who had those dreams crushed by a world that often fails to uphold the virtues it preaches. However, as a man driven bitter by wrong doings and disappointments he still strives to be more than just a sword. He still fights to uphold the virtues of what some might call "a true knight." He might stumble, but more than almost any other character, he tries.

Ok, so I just made a statement that might seem pretty bold. I am suggesting that Sandor Clegane is secretly a hero. A goody goody knight in shining armor who fits right into the songs... time to back it up.

First, I must address the elephant in the room, Mycah.

As I'm sure many of you recall, Mycah was Arya's friend who Sandor claims to have killed. While nobody saw Sandor kill Mycah he does claim to have done so twice.

Quote
"Because I hacked your little friend in two? I've killed a lot more than him. I promise you."

Quote
"I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after."

Now, the second quote, Sandor was trying to bait Arya into killing him, such a confession would never hold up in court. The first seems to be the only time he claims to have done the deed without any ulterior motive. Operating under the assumption that this is indeed true it seems rather damning of all the things I just claimed. However, I would like to argue the contrary.

First, Sandor has plenty reason to have killed the boy. One, the boy assaulted a prince, and he with Arya's wolf maimed the prince's arm. If the hound believed this to be true than he would not be whole unjustified in committing the act. He would be performing his duty. Two, if Sandor knew the prince was a lying jerk, then perhaps he suspected the grim future that this boy's fate would hold and would be doing the boy a mercy by killing him.

Second, Sandor is clearly uncomfortable with the killing of Mycah.

Quote
The Hound?s eyes seemed to glitter through the steel of that hideous dog?s-head helm. ?He ran.? He looked at Ned?s face and laughed. ?But not very fast.?

Why did Sandor's eyes seem to glitter? I would argue that he was likely choked up over the event. This is further emphasized how he responds when probed about it on other occasions.

Quote
Do you deny killing this butcher?s boy, Mycah??
The big man shrugged. ?I was Joffrey?s sworn shield. The butcher?s boy attacked a prince of the blood.?

Quote
"Why don't you just kill me like you did Mycah?" Arya screamed at him. She was still defiant then, more angry than scared.
He answered by grabbing the front of her tunic and yanking her within an inch of his burned face. "The next time you say that name I'll beat you so bad you'll wish I killed you."

He regularly dodges the question. These might seem like glib remarks and they certainly highly suggest guilt, but rarely does he out right say "yes" to the question of "did you kill Mycah?" In my humble opinion, this highly suggests that the subject is uncomfortable for him. Perhaps he is ashamed of it. Perhaps he feels it is a great failing of his.

Third, Sandor is not perfect. His charm is that he tries. Perhaps his own brutish nature gets the better of him, but he strives to be something more.

What makes me say this? Well it all stemmed from his all important chat with Sansa Stark, where he tells her the story of his burned face.

Quote
My father told everyone my bedding had caught fire, and our maester gave me ointments. Ointments! Gregor got his ointments too. Four years later, they anointed him with the seven oils and he recited his knightly vows and Rhaegar Targaryen tapped him on the shoulder and said, ?Arise, Ser Gregor.??
The rasping voice trailed off. He squatted silently before her, a hulking black shape shrouded in the night, hidden from her eyes. Sansa could hear his ragged breathing. She was sad for him, she realized. Somehow, the fear had gone away.
The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. ?He was no true knight,? she whispered to him.
The Hound threw back his head and roared. Sansa stumbled back, away from him, but he caught her arm. ?No,? he growled at her, ?no, little bird, he was no true knight.?

I remember first reading this operating under the assumption that Sandor was some end of stage boss that a hero like Jon or Rob would have to overcome before finally being able to defeat the evil prince. However, that proved to be less compatible with this little chat, particularly the ending. Notice how Sansa responds, "He was no true knight." What made her think this would comfort him? Stranger yet (get it?), rather than mock her he simply replies "no, little bird, he was no true knight." The two then travel to Sansa's bedchamber in silence. Why does this statement by Sansa silent mr one liner? In my opinion, it is because she, in this moment, understands him. She recognizes what it is that bothers him so and dampens his rage for a time, albeit a very short one.

Perhaps, Sandor was always striving to be a "true knight" in a world that made a mockery of the title, or perhaps, this is Sandor's turning point. Perhaps, with 5 words Sansa slew the beast, and Sandor began to strive to be what his brother wasn't. Either way the actions Sandor takes for the remainder of the story start to take on a pattern.

Afterwards Sandor would go on to:

Saves Ser Lorace from his brother while not trying to kill Gregor.

Quote
not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother's unprotected face

Steps in to stop Sansa from killing herself to kill Joffrey by cleaning her broken lip.

Lies to corroborate Sansa's lie, protecting her from Joffrey's wrath and possibly saving Ser Dantos.

Quote
?The girl speaks truly,? the Hound rasped. ?What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.? His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she?d said, desperate to avoid punishment.

Remains the only member of the King's Guard to never strike Sansa even after being commanded to do so by the king himself.

Covers Sansa in his cloak to protect her modesty.

Rescues Sansa from the mob.

Offers to take Sansa out of King's Landing and to protect her.

Saves Arya from running into certain death at the red wedding.

Continues to protect Arya after she is no longer of value to him as she cannot be ransomed.

Sandor is a name that comes from Alexander which means "defender of men" and that is what Sandor is. He certainly continues to talk a big game to all those around him, but when push comes to shove he regularly steps forward and defends someone. Sandor regularly battles to protect others weaker than himself all the while preaching only the virtues of strength and cynicism.

This character is a man conflicted, a man who has seen the brutality and unfairness of the world, a man who strives to help others, and a man who holds on to ideals in a fallen world. This character just strolling into a revenge plot seems very unsatisfying to me.

However, I still suspect Cleagane Bowl to occur. *record scratch*
Didn't see that one coming did you? You did? Well... you're a jerk

How Clegane Bowl might happen

Anyway, I suspect that Sandor will come to blows with his undead brother. However, I do not believe it will be at the trial for Cercei for the reasons listed earlier. Then when?

Well, if I had to place a bet, I'd lean towards Sansa's trial. Sansa will almost certainly take back her true name, much like her sister, and when she does she will have some splainin' to do. Remember, Sansa is suspected of regicide or at least a conspiracy with her husband Tyrion. Tyrion's trial is done.

Here is the basic sequence of events. Gregor will have to fight a champion of the faith for Cercei and Gregor will butcher the poor fellow. Cercei will reestablish power over King's Landing and will get the upper hand on the Tyrells. Then Sansa will arrive "younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." Sansa, having gained power under the tutelage of Littlefinger, who I predict she will kill, shall return with enough clout to get Sandor into the mix without having to have him executed for desertion. Then Sansa will have to have her trial, and Sandor will step in as champion. This would be far more satisfying for me. Sandor would be fighting to defend someone, to be a true knight like those in the songs, and he could go on to protect a lady as idealistic as himself.

It does fit GRRM's style. If you read the Dunk and Egg trilogy you know that Martin rather enjoys his climactic duels. I would be very surprised if the next several books didn't have at least one high stakes duel where someone we were cheering for came out on top.
However, to be honest, I judge it to be rather impossible to say with any degree of certainty. Martin has certainly proven to be a bit of a contrarian who goes out of his way to surprise the audience from time to time. But more than anything I will leave you with a quote from one of Bran's prophetic dreams. Hopefully, it will suggest a showdown that might even outshine Clegane Bowl...

Quote
One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

...or it might not. I guess we'll have wait and see

 

[DrownedAmmet]

I think it's very possible that if Clegane bowl does happen, they both will have secret identities. Cersei will have "Sir Robert Strong" and the faith will have "some gravedigger from nowhere."
In the books they are both believed to be dead by the general populace, so it will probably remain a secret until the last second. I can see Cersei being shocked by Sandor revealing who he is right before the duel

If it happens at all of course

 

[Glongpre]

That's why I always liked Sandor. He seems like a real asshole at first, but as you read what actions he takes you realize he is a good man at heart.

I think it would be cool if it happened, and Sandor would win (I don't think Gregor would win two duels, but you never know with GRRM).

I could see him finally being able to be a good man and knight, now that he is out from under the Lannisters, only for him to be executed or something. At least give him some happiness, if only for a moment.

 

[Schtimpy]

I feel like Clegane-Bowl could be a possibility, but further down the line. The only way Sandor would be the light's champion is if the High Septon knew who he was and wanted to set it up for...reasons? However, if the book's plot matches the show's plot, Sandor could have a chance to earn the title in the Riverlands over time. Besides, who wants a climatic fight where we haven't even seen one of the combatants fight? Is Robert Strong a "running" zombie or a "shambling" zombie? I'd like to know first.

Snip

So, this is a re-post from Westros.org. I think you're the same guy, cause both accounts have low posts, but I feel like you should have mentioned something. (But would that be advertising? I don't know)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/141060-clegane-bowl-a-slightly-different-perspective/

I bring this up because you have different names.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I'm not a reader of the books, however I have read wikis, forums and so on above and beyond the show so know enough on this stuff. I agree with the assessment of Sandor as a character, but not with his changes "off screen" nor with the reasoning for why Cleganebowl couldn't happen.

While there's no question that the Hound killed Mycah, some leniency can be allowed since he was a soldier following the orders of the Crown Prince. It's the same age-old question about the morality of a hitman or other paid killer...they may pull the trigger/swing the sword but they don't give the order or act without one, so who is the criminal? The Hound has demonstrated time and again that he questioned his actions under the Lannisters/"Baratheons" until he couldn't take any more and left at the Battle of Blackwater. He defended Sansa, he befriended and defended Arya and I honestly believe at his core, that his heart is in the right place. He is a good man in a horrible world (as good as anyone can be in that world).

His story is one of the more interesting ones I think, but I disagree that it wouldn't happen, or would be tragic if his "transformation" by the faith happened off screen. Firstly, he isn't and hasn't ever been (to my understanding) a PoV character. Season 6 Episode 7 he was I'll grant, but in the books and prior to that he hasn't been. His story, as interesting as it is is not central to the one being told. Similar to the reason that Bran wasn't in Season 5 at all (excepting that his storyline had caught up to the books), what happens in that time period is neither important nor interesting. It's sufficient for us to know that it happened.

What we know is that he was left for dead by Arya. She had enough hate for him that she wouldn't try to help, but enough love and respect for him that she wouldn't kill him either. The fact that she left him in pain to die horribly was likely a happy coincidence. Now we know he survived all this time under the auspices of healers from the Faith. In the books it's strongly hinted he was the Gravekeeper. Regardless, we know he was left for dead, was found, nursed back to health and remained with the church. Perhaps he found some peace there, perhaps as was said in the books "The Hound is dead", meaning the violent side of Sandor Clegane symbolically died, leaving a fundamentally good and/or peaceful man behind.

One presumes that his convalescence and transformation/awakening/enlightenment were hand in hand and occurred in the time from when he was found and the time we see him again. We the audience don't really need to see or read it. It is completely plausible, not super interesting to watch (even if he were a PoV character) made for his return to be a huge surprise and a great twist and while I think the show handled it rather clumsily and lazily, I must say I'm excited to see what happens next.

Saying the laws of the land would be a barrier to Cleganebowl is nonsense. Laws and rules haven't helped many people at all...not Ned, not Rob, not Caitlyn, not Tyrion, not Sansa or Arya. As was suggested it wouldn't be hard for him to have a different identity, be ushered in under the auspices of the Faith or some such. Margery was forgiven for finding enlightenment, why then can't the High Sparrow declare Sandor a new, enlightened man? There are a dozen different ways it could happen and I totally disagree with both the OP's reasons for why it couldn't happen and for why it would.

It's not hard to imagine that the Hound was content in his new, peaceful life. His days of killing for others and war are behind him. However perhaps for a noble, worthy cause he would take up arms again. Here, the Church has need of him. The people who nursed him to health and showed him another way need him. It's a fight for them, for justice and that it happens to be against the Mountain is poetic. It doesn't have to be solely about revenge, or the faith.

 

[Uncle Comrade]

While I can't speak for the show, since they seem to just go with whatever they think is the most 'awesome'/'shocking' outcome, there are several reasons why I can't see it happening in the books;

1. From the way Sandor's story seems to be headed, I feel like going back to fight his brother would be a step back. His time on the Quiet Isle has been about reflecting on his life, trying to put aside his hatred and desire for vengeance. When the Elder Brother tells Brienne "The Hound is dead, the man is at peace" he means that violent aspect of Sandor's personality is gone. I'm not saying he's going to stay in the monastery the rest of his life, but I feel that he's not leaving until he's done healing.

2. Speaking of healing, when we last saw Sandor the Hound, he was badly injured, and on the verge of death. Even as the gravedigger, he walks with a noticeable limp. I doubt he's in any condition to fight a duel, especially not one the Faith has a vested interest in winning.

3. The Quiet Isle is some distance from King's Landing, and we know that Cersei's trial is taking place within a week of her walk of shame. Logistically, it seems unlikely that Sandor would be able to get there in time to be the Faith's champion.

4. In the same way that 'The Hound' could be said to be dead, the same is also true of The Mountain. Ser Robert Strong is little more than a flesh golem reanimated by Qyburn's twisted experimentation. He doesn't eat, doesn't sleep, doesn't speak, doesn't take off his armour, possibly doesn't even have a head (if you believe the skull sent to Dorne is genuine) Cersei's champion may be made of Ser Gregor's body, but the man who held Sandor's head in the fire is long gone, and there'd be no catharsis for Sandor in defeating what remains.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

You guys sure write a lot on the topic.

I can't deny that a rematch between the two would be fun to watch but he's a loooooong way away from capital. If the faith does discover he's alive, 'somewhat' holier than he was before and they found him butchering Red Priests and their followers in retaliation; I suppose then the groundwork is there to give him a horse for the capital to kill more heathens for them. Of course that wouldn't be enough for Sandor Clegane, so there probably would be the offer of a castle and a lady befitting his role as the sole remaining heir of the Clegane keep.

Sadly, I think the show is trying to jam in too much too quickly so I doubt we'll get a progression like that. More like its going to be *poof* revealing he's the faith's champion! Gasp! Cliffhanger! Please go nuts on twitter for us.

That kind of writing turns me off personally... I'm a book reader first and while I don't get pedantic over the changes, this race to do everything and for maximum shock value (watch, they'll kill Ghost next) just kind of makes me groan. Still fun to watch but it gets irritating when you can see it more about the TV DRAMA of it all instead of what's more true to the characters.

EDIT: I'm glad its not confirmed, it seems increasingly unlikely it will happen.

 

[JamesStone]

I am somewhat dubious.

Ok, so the interpretation of the Quiet Isle is uh.... iffy. As someone who liked the Hound's arc, this is just not right. And I think that's because we're looking at a rewrite.

The Brotherhood Without Banners are reintroduced and implicated. Sandor appears to be going after them.

Now, the Brotherhood hate the Lannisters, and all those with banners, and were formed from a hunting party tracking down Gregor to bring him to the King's Justice, under the orders of Eddard Stark serving as Hand, for his crimes against the smallfolk. Also, not big fans of the Hound.

It's possible that someone else is responsible. But it would take a massive leap of geography to put Clegane in King's Landing, and a massive leap to get him in a position to fight. I don't see it happening. Then again, the show has been known to do stupid things, so I don't think the writers actually give a single fuck about the size or geography of Westeros anymore, so I'm sure if they wanted, Sandor could cross half the country without a horse, let alone a good one, in time for the trial by combat, and somehow be let in, without any of the Faith to vouch for him, because they got turned into hippies and then corpses.

I think Sandor's done in the books, he's the gravedigger, and I'm guessing that's the end of his plotline. I really hope it is, it's a fitting end to an arc, masterfully done. And without medieval hippies. Maybe he'll Cleganebowl in the books, but somehow, I doubt it. If he does, it will be better set up than this.

I think they've reintroduced him here to reintroduce the Brotherhood, so they can introduce Lady Stoneheart, because they omitted her, and I'm guessing that there's something of relevance she's meant to do. She is meant to inherit Beric's resurrection. No idea why the Brotherhood need such a spin, so maybe someone else killed the hippies, which I'm sure will be of very little significance to the plot overall.

I think Loras will fight Gregor. I think the Faith Militant will break him and try to use him as their champion. He's a great combatant and it would mirror the joust, in which he defeated Gregor, before Gregor lost his temper, killed his horse and made to attack him before Sandor stepped in. Don't know that he'll win, I think it'll be a signficant dramatic moment though.

I think you're right about Sandor, analysis wise. He's a great character, because he's a subversion of the badass. He's a gruff guy who's one of the best fighters in the show. But he is a fighter, and that means he's a killer, and he has a very real, very dark perspective on that, and the story isn't afraid to present that negatively.

He probably killed Mycah, and it was probably brutal. In the books there's room for interpretation, but it says that he cut him up so bad that he had to be taken back to his father in a sack. Maybe it's something else, but I doubt that Mycah is coming back somehow. It has been a while. He's a brutal fighter, he slaughters his enemies, and he follows orders. He's killed women, and innocents, and he's not a hero.

But he's not just vicious, he's dark and conflicted. He's not always cruel, though he is violent. He has an idea of what chivalry and knighthood is, enough to know that he's no knight, and he's principled enough to refuse it, as it's hypocrisy, and he's disgusted by the idea that his brother is a knight. He knows stories about them, and it was playing with Gregor's toy knight that earned him his facial burns. He does feel affection for Sansa, and does help Arya, and it's the other knights of the kingsguard who beat her, and he who looks after her. And he eventually decided, fuck it, I'm done, with regards to fighting in wars for nobles, and deserted, which was pretty awesome.

Sandor is a badass soldier, with all that entails. That means, in the show, that he's a giant thug who has very little compunctions about violence, and that he's killed innocent people, and I like how that fits as a subversion. Sandor is a bad guy, but he's still got a decent heart, so he knows that he's a bad guy. He even knows he needs to do something about that.

That's why I liked the gravedigger better. Gravedigger is him digging graves on the Quiet Isle to atone for his sins, not joining a hippie cult. That's just such a terrible change, I hope to god they did it because Martin did write Sandor back into the story, because if they've messed with that just for the kick of it, then I don't know how anyone could call the showrunners anything other than stupid hacks.

To answer your final question, yes, Martin approved of it. Just so you know, Martin has told the showrunners the entire final draft of the plot - the thick of it is set, details are the thing that can be changed - so almost everything that happens differently in the show has a reason to be and a similar version of it will probably happen in the books.

For example, I highly doubt Stannis Baratheon is actually dead, only if because the show never hesitated to show us big character deaths. Even Ned, who's death wasn't seen directly, was seen right the next episode as a corpse, a head and a season later bones. Or if he's actually dead, you can be mostly sure he won't survive in the books much longer. Shireen is fucking guaranteed to die soon, too.

Also, there's really not much difference from the gravedigger scenario and the hippies scenario, if you think about it. In both, Sandor Clegane was found by people of faith that gave him a constructive purpose and a raison d'?tre, which allowed him to be free of the influence of rulers and just be the man he wanted to be. I think the change was made because the show is highly limited by time. It's likely that whatever the showrunners want to do with Clegane, GRRM wants to do a similar thing, only more detailed and drawn out. Unfortunately, some things must be cut when adapting to the screen.

I honestly feel most people's complaints about the show's handling of the Song of Ice and Fire Saga, fifth season aside, really have no idea of how things that work in books would look if they were adapted to a show. Fortunately, it seems the writers have started integrating more and more Martin, and asking for his opinion before making changes. I personally think we won't see another Broken Base like Talisa.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Well:

Spoiler

Cleganebowl has now been debunked because the High Sparrow convinced the king to ban and outlaw the use of Trial by Combat. No trial by combat no Mountain fighting in it.

Take it away Jerry:

 

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

How dare he ruin such a beautiful thing?

King tommen, the Hypekiller

 

[CrazyCajun777]

I think Sandor's done in the books, he's the gravedigger, and I'm guessing that's the end of his plotline. I really hope it is, it's a fitting end to an arc, masterfully done. And without medieval hippies. Maybe he'll Cleganebowl in the books, but somehow, I doubt it. If he does, it will be better set up than this.

I too am not a fan of the hippy thing, too modernized for my taste. I also feel the show is very different from the books in very important ways. I largely agree with you on such topics and will not simply echo them as I have written a whole bunch and anymore would only waste everyone's time. However, I disagree that this would be a fitting end to Sandor's arc. I fully understand that I am in the minority on this, but, in my opinion, this would be a rather empty conclusion. Frankly, I would prefer him die than the gravedigger conclusion. Let me try to explain.


So first let me point out how my interpretation differs from yours:

He's killed women, and innocents, and he's not a hero.

First of all, I am not so sure of this. He certainly has claimed to have done such things when trying to frighten the Stark girls, but unless you can point it out, I have seen no evidence to support that those statements are actually true. Further more, he never seems to hold any feelings of guilt over these crimes while he actively sobs when he thinks about how "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her." Meenwhile, all these innocent victims never seem to be brought up except as a scare tactic, nor does any other character ever mention these atrocities. In ASOIAF everyone lies and we have seen Sandor do so. I suspect this might be a similar case.

However, this is really more a quibble than anything.

So let's get more to the heart o the matter

He has an idea of what chivalry and knighthood is, enough to know that he's no knight, and he's principled enough to refuse it, as it's hypocrisy, and he's disgusted by the idea that his brother is a knight.

This perhaps is where we depart on interpretation. I agree that he does perceive the knights around him as hypocrites. He does also actively reject the idea of being a knight himself, but I perceive this two events as profoundly tied together and not separate entities. I do not believe he rejects knighthood because he perceives himself as unworthy of the title. I believe he does so because he wants to separate himself from those who sully the ideals they are to uphold. As I said before, Sandor is a fallen dreamer, and there is nothing more bitter than that. He experienced the ideals of knighthood being corrupted for his brother's dubbing, so he acts in parody. He mocks the ideals to insure that he is not associated with those who he feels disgrace the office. For this reason, he associates himself with a hound.

"I like dogs better than knights."

"A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he?ll look you straight in the face."

He stands as parody to those who he feels are liars and hypocrites. He isn't a monster, in my interpretation anyway, he only wears the mask of one to separate himself from those who wear the mask of a hero. I believe he still clings to those ideals, or they are rekindled by Sansa. Thus Sandor regularly acts the hero when an innocent needs protecting. He actually reminds me, in some ways, of the character Dunk in the Dunk and Egg trilogy. He is the unexpected hero, spat upon by society, and seen as less than a true knight, and yet he upholds the ideals of chivalry and knighthood better than almost anyone else.

My next disagreement,

And he eventually decided, fuck it, I'm done, with regards to fighting in wars for nobles, and deserted, which was pretty awesome.

I do not agree with this statement. I personally do not agree that he fled because he was sick of fighting the wars of nobles and alike. I believe he did so for two reasons. He felt that the battle was lost. Sandor had no reason to believe reinforcements would make it and assumed the city would soon fall. I also believe he was terrified of fire. He fled for these reasons and not because of some rejection o the feudal system. Then still even in his hour of fear and terror he sought an innocent. He went to Sansa drunk and scared he asked to take her away from the horrors he assumed would follow. This is important because, for me, this is not a turning point but just the same man continuing on the same path, and I thus do not find his arc progressing through this act.

However, others do seem to agree with you. Outside of a few lines like "Fuck the king" what makes you come to this conclusion because I may have missed it?

Back to the point.

I think Sandor's done in the books, he's the gravedigger, and I'm guessing that's the end of his plotline. I really hope it is, it's a fitting end to an arc, masterfully done. And without medieval hippies.

Due to my different interpretation of Sandor, him atoning on the Quite Isle is very unsatisfying to me. Rather than going forth again to try to uphold chivalrous ideals in a fallen world (or failing while trying, similar to Rob), he would simply be giving up and stomping about on an island feeling sorry for himself. The whole series we see him hide his ideals rather than embrace them. His arc would be satisfying and concluded, in my opinion, if he finally addressed the warm fuzzy beliefs he stuffs down. However, if we end at the Quite Isle we see him just leave it all and give up, taking no real stance. From my perspective, this answers little. Does he believe in chivalry or has he finally rejected the ideal? Does he think being a real hero is impossible and decided that there are only monsters? Who knows, he feels bad and found Jesus. The End.(I apologize for the glibness there, but I'm trying to make a point to express how this ending would make me feel) What's worse is that this moment would be the turn for the character. In Shakespearian terms, this is his climax and we would only get to hear about it from some guy we never met before. For a character like this, I think that this would be really boring and unsatisfying conclusion. Furthermore, Sandor is far too intimately tied in with the Stark girls from him to just fall out of the narrative. Combine this with the fact that the books make a point to make his helm something that is so regularly focused on, to remind us of who he is I would guess, I would find his total exit from the story to be very surprising.

Please note, that I will be operating off of my interpretations of the character. Judging from your comments in your post you disagree with me, and there is nothing wrong with that. Frankly, if the author is dead than the critic is probably buried in an ancient pyramid under the lost city of Atlantis. We can agree to disagree. I am simply expressing how my interpretation of the character differs from yours. Being that the books probably won't be finished until we have flying cars and Skynet has taken over, we can both happily enjoy own head cannon or the rest of our days.

On a side note, I do still hope the show does a thing or two clever. If you noticed, there was a pretty interesting thing. Immediately after Sandor claims that only hate kept him going and the elder brother told him "the gods aren't through with Sandor Clegane." The next scene has Margery read this, "Smoothing what was jagged, so does a woman's love calm a man's brute nature." I am told that old GRRM is a big fan of beauty and the beast (beyond just writing for the show), so perhaps after all this schlock of revenge something interesting might happen. However, knowing the show... probably not.

His story is one of the more interesting ones I think, but I disagree that it wouldn't happen, or would be tragic if his "transformation" by the faith happened off screen. Firstly, he isn't and hasn't ever been (to my understanding) a PoV character. Season 6 Episode 7 he was I'll grant, but in the books and prior to that he hasn't been. His story, as interesting as it is is not central to the one being told. Similar to the reason that Bran wasn't in Season 5 at all (excepting that his storyline had caught up to the books), what happens in that time period is neither important nor interesting. It's sufficient for us to know that it happened.

...

One presumes that his convalescence and transformation/awakening/enlightenment were hand in hand and occurred in the time from when he was found and the time we see him again. We the audience don't really need to see or read it. It is completely plausible, not super interesting to watch (even if he were a PoV character)

Firstly, Sandor is not a PoV, but that does not make him unimportant. Jonah Mormont, Stannis Baratheon, and Rob Stark are also not PoV characters, yet their character arcs are incredibly relevant and impactful. Primarily because they are relevant and compelling character, but also because they are directly and strongly tied to PoV characters. The PoV characters are not inherently the protagonists, they are simply the lens through which we see the story.

Secondly and most importantly, you are suggesting that Sandor's transformation is "neither important nor interesting." I am not educated enough to find words to describe how strongly I disagree with you on this. Furthermore, GRRM would likely disagree as well. He has stated on several occasions that he strongly associates with something William Faulkner said in his nobel acceptance speech "the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself which alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat." And this scene would be the final conflict and conclusion of that war. The conclusion of a character's story. It would resolve the very conflict of a human heart waring with itself. This by GRRM's own expressed opinion would be the most important and most interesting thing to write about.

 

[JamesStone]

To answer your final question, yes, Martin approved of it. Just so you know, Martin has told the showrunners the entire final draft of the plot - the thick of it is set, details are the thing that can be changed - so almost everything that happens differently in the show has a reason to be and a similar version of it will probably happen in the books.

I am aware of this.

That doesn't mean anything.

I'm not sure if you've read the books, otherwise you'd realise that there have been significant changes, not just to the timing and placing of events and pacing, but characters have actually lived and died where they oughtn't. Here, we replaced the Quiet Isles with hippies, which is just plain stupid. Elsewhere, Balon Greyjoy lived far longer than he was meant to, Stannis died where he hadn't been confirmed dead etc.

And of course he endorses it, he's likely contractually obliged to do so. But it's obvious that the show doesn't have a lot of room to tie off the ends it needs to, and even before it had to brutally summarise the books, and I don't think it's getting better at that.

For example, I highly doubt Stannis Baratheon is actually dead, only if because the show never hesitated to show us big character deaths. Even Ned, who's death wasn't seen directly, was seen right the next episode as a corpse, a head and a season later bones. Or if he's actually dead, you can be mostly sure he won't survive in the books much longer. Shireen is fucking guaranteed to die soon, too.

I am dubious of this too. Again, did you read the books? Stannis isn't confirmed dead in the books, but the Pink Letter Ramsay sends says that Stannis died, that his army was beaten by the Boltons.

I doubt Stannis is alive, because Brienne swung at him, and he'd said his piece. If he has survived, it's only thanks to camera trickery, and that's another point against the showrunners.

Also, there's really not much difference from the gravedigger scenario and the hippies scenario, if you think about it.

I did. It's a stupid change, characteristic of the showrunners.

In both, Sandor Clegane was found by people of faith that gave him a constructive purpose and a raison d'?tre, which allowed him to be free of the influence of rulers and just be the man he wanted to be.

No.

It's a brutal change of tone that allows the showrunners to add in more iconoclastic anachronism.

The book is subtle. The Septon makes some comments about the Hound, and what sort of a man he was, and it's implied he knows him far better than he possibly could, and says he died. Then, we see a figure digging graves, who resembles him. Digging graves is atonement, and atonement does not mean forgiveness. Sandor has a lot of guilt, and has done a lot of evil, and he needs to do a lot. And a start for appreciating that guilt is digging graves, since he spent so much time killing. Being forgiven, and accepted, by a bunch of libertines, is a complete change of tone.

It only matters if you value the original tone, and the implications for what it meant of the Hound.

I think the change was made because the show is highly limited by time.

The passage is MUCH shorter in the book. It's from the PoV of Brienne, who's hunting the Hound, which was cut from the show, because they completely rewrote the Riverlands, not for time reasons, but because they didn't see the value of Lady Stoneheart, and because somehow they felt that changing the Brave Companions was a good idea. It's really a mess in the show, and it seems it was done for fanservice, to have Brienne and Sandor have a stupid misunderstanding and fight, so that she can be the one to brutalise him, rather than seeing him from her point of view.

Instead, they dedicated a portion of an episode to introduce characters who didn't exist in the book, who have their own philosophy when in the book, it's just the plain old church of the seven, while these guys are basically running a hippie cult around the same instead. It's a lot of work, and I'm guessing it's because the showrunners liked that idea more than the original, which would have taken far less effort to establish, and far less work to implement, had they planned it 2 seasons ago.

Which gets back to my point. They know how the books end. They don't know how they'll do it in the show. They make changes as they see fit, but some of them are bad, really bad, and some of them, they try to correct afterwards. I would not be suprised if they decided they needed Stoneheart now for something.

These are the guys who sent the Pink Letter AFTER Jon Snow's resurrection. The entire reason the Night's Watch betrayed Jon in the books was that he recieved a letter from Ramsay, taunting him, telling him he'd defeated Stannis, he'd captured the King Beyond The Wall, who Jon had sent to free "Arya" from him, etc, and Jon decided to break his duty as a man of the Night's Watch and take a force, including Wildlings, who had, at this point, begun being settled, and even incorporated into the defense of the Wall, South, to fight the Boltons. THIS is why Bowen Marsh, who the books present as a good man, stabs him, this is why the Watch betrays him. He's abandoning his post, and he's involving himself in the Southern conflict, which the Watch are sworn not to do. A Lord Commander once rebelled, and turned against the kingdoms, and as a result of this, the castles of the Watch are not fortified on their Southern side, to prevent them from doing it again. It's part of how the Wildlings attacked Castle Black.

The showrunners? Eh, don't worry. We'll just make the Night's Watch, who seem to be about 40 men, total, really racist and too stupid to want reinforcements, and we'll use the Pink Letter to make Ramsay seem more psycho and edgy.

It's likely that whatever the showrunners want to do with Clegane, GRRM wants to do a similar thing, only more detailed and drawn out. Unfortunately, some things must be cut when adapting to the screen.

Not always. They have introduced characters, killed them early, killed them late, done whatever they needed. It's entirely possible that Clegane is done in the books, but they've brought him back in the show for a dramatic reveal and to set something else necessary up.

In the books, Cleganebowl is a FRINGE theory at best. It's a fun one, but it's also in part a joke. It's not likely, and it defeats the dramatic arc, and relies on an extroadinary series of coincidences and travel. And in the show's case, Clegane can't even rely on the church of the seven bringing him into the city and avoiding the goldcloaks, because he's alone, the hippies are dead, etc.

I honestly feel most people's complaints about the show's handling of the Song of Ice and Fire Saga, fifth season aside, really have no idea of how things that work in books would look if they were adapted to a show. Fortunately, it seems the writers have started integrating more and more Martin, and asking for his opinion before making changes. I personally think we won't see another Broken Base like Talisa.

I disagree entirely. I feel the show has been rapidly going downhill, and the primary elements of that are that the showrunners fail to understand the basic tone and plotting of Martin's work, and that as writers themselves, they don't know how basic drama works, they don't understand arcs.

I'll give you a few cases:
Jaime: He was meant to have returned to the capital and focussed on being a better leader of the Kingsguard, his captivity having made him a slightly better man, learning some humility. That's why he sends Brienne to save the Starks.
As a result, Cersei rejects him, mocks him cruelly, and hurts him, but he continues on an arc. He's the Kingslayer, but he can be remembered for more than that.

This was aborted in the show. First he has sex of dubious consent with Cersei, ignoring her saying no, to fuck her next to the corpse of her eldest son, before going off on a quest for her with Bronn for hilarious buddy cop antics in Dorne, which is again, entirely butchered, and at the start of this season, they had them kill basically everybody (Which makes no sense character wise), seemingly to tie off those ends.

Jon: I already detailed the Pink Letter. Suffice to say, that's just wrong.

Sansa: She was meant to be developing, becoming more assertive etc. She starts the series naieve, and just wants to marry a handsome Prince. She's then abused, tormented, and has to find the inner strength to cope. She learns she should have valued her family more, and that she was spoilt. She learns to appreciate things even when they don't look like fairytales.

In the show, in the middle of that, we have her sent off to get raped by Ramsay, because that speedbump totally works, and then we have her meet Baelish again, and of course, after some harsh words, we're done, because this deviation from the books can't affect the important plot.

Like I said, I don't think Cleganebowl is likely, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE IN THE SHOW. It's more likely in the books. In the show, it's really difficult to see happening, it'd be dumb as hell. And, the Hound is presumably hunting the Brotherhood, who they were very specific about reintroducing. And bandits would do. I think it's fair to say that whatever the Hound is doing, it'll involve them. But I don't think the changes here are any good either. It's EXACTLY another Talissa. They've added in 20th century characters who don't fit the setting, replacing others, for "flavour", when the old ones serve the plot just fine, and make more sense. It feels like people are ignoring that because they're glad to see Sandor back, and because the hippies are fun.

He'd have to deal with the Brotherhood question, then go a long way on his own, and somehow get into the city. That's just unlikely. But, the showrunners are hacks, so if they want, he'll just be there.

Eh, whatever you say. You have my opinion, I have mine, and I'm not going to waste my time discussing this, you like the books far too much, I like the show far too much, it's a waste of fucking time. Let's just agree to disagree.

To finish it up, yes, I've read the books. I really like the books. I still think, fifth season aside, the show does a better job adapting things. Subtle isn't synonymous to good (it is good, but it's not because it's fucking subtle) and sometimes the direct crass approach translates far better, as it happens in this case in my opinion.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Secondly and most importantly, you are suggesting that Sandor's transformation is "neither important nor interesting." I am not educated enough to find words to describe how strongly I disagree with you on this. Furthermore, GRRM would likely disagree as well.

Except that GRRM does agree, since it's not in the books, just like it isn't in the show. Here's what happened. He was in a hospital bed for weeks/months being nursed back to health. He struggled to rehabilitate physically, one of his legs may never fully heal. Meanwhile, priestly men whispered encouraging words, said things like "Violence isn't the only way" and he did the Spielberg stare out into the distance each evening while contemplating the meaning of life, his second chance at it and what it means to be a good man.

That's his journey. It would be utterly tedious on film and GRRM CBA to put it in the book either. In other stories, it might be a montage, but here it is more dramatic to simply show that he survived. This is precisely the sort of thing that is handwaved because, like Bran's arrival to to the Three Eyed Crow/Raven, it is simply not entertaining. The details simply don't matter. They matter to the Hound, but not to us and not to the world at large.

Unfortunately, as much as I like the character, he's not the main story of ASoIaF/GoT. If the story were about his redemption, then I think *not* showing us his recovery would be a terrible crime. But it isn't. Perhaps saying it would be uninteresting is unfair, I'll concede, he's an interesting enough character that background would be good. But it *is* unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Telling that story would have taken away any tension all these years about his fate when Arya left him, would have diminished her story and the impact of his return. The story is above King's Landing, the Seven Kingdoms, Mereen, the Wall/Others/Wildlings and the rest, sadly there's no space or need for a year of the Hound limping around.

 

[CrazyCajun777]

Except that GRRM does agree, since it's not in the books, just like it isn't in the show.

First of all, I hold the opinion that this conversion has not happened in the books and that Sandor hasn't experienced a change like the one you describe. Secondly, the books are not over. There is still plenty of time for a chapter where at least Sandor explains to someone what happened. At least then, the change could then be demonstrated to the audience and we could understand his transformation from his point of view and what it was that changed his heart.

Also, it is in the show. It is simply handled poorly.

Here's what happened. He was in a hospital bed for weeks/months being nursed back to health. He struggled to rehabilitate physically, one of his legs may never fully heal. Meanwhile, priestly men whispered encouraging words, said things like "Violence isn't the only way" and he did the Spielberg stare out into the distance each evening while contemplating the meaning of life, his second chance at it and what it means to be a good man.

You are suggesting that because it can be boring then it will be boring. All the changes of heart we've seen in the books so far have been very interesting and do not wallow in cliche as you suggest Sandor's must.

The details simply don't matter. They matter to the Hound

The details matter. They matter perhaps more than the "world at large". If it matters to the characters then it matters to the audience because it defines who they are. By your very definition we don't need to know why Sandor became the hound. "It's sufficient for us to know that it happened." Yet in the books, a point is made to have him tell us in gory detail. It is Sandor and not Balish who explains to us Sandor's experience, and because we see that event through his eyes, we get insight into the conflict within him. We understand him far better and he becomes far more compelling because of the voice telling the story.

there's no space or need for a year of the Hound limping around.

That is an unfair exaggeration. All we need is that moment of the turn. All we need is to see how this change in him took place. Sandor is a man who has probably seen many atrocities and hypocrisies, but we didn't need to see them all to understand him. All we needed was to have him tell the story of his face from his point of view to understand him.

The story is above King's Landing, the Seven Kingdoms, Mereen, the Wall/Others/Wildlings

I assume you mean "about", otherwise you'll need to explain to me what you mean by "above". Assuming you meant "about" (typos happen), I disagree. When Ned died it was not the kingdom that people were worried about. I suspect very few in the audience gasped and thought "what about the small folk?!" People were upset because Ned died, not the hand of the king. Many in the audience cared about Ned and this is what made his death so impactful.

The story is not about a city or a kingdom or a wall. It's about individuals. The story, like most good stories, is about people.