CliffyB: Microtransaction is Not a Dirty Word, EA is Not The Bad Guy

[spartandude]

I think the best system is how ME3 multiplayer works...all the multiplayer DLC's are free and everything can be unlocked in-game by playing it long enough. However, you can also buy packs for MS points and because the system is a RNG, luck-based system it works well. You can spend $1000 or 1000 hours playing the game and probably achieve the same results. If you don't want to spend the money then just play the game and you will eventually get what you want.

im actually going to have to agree with you hear but only because the multiplayer dlc is free

 

[Strazdas]

Hitler was elected by popular vote you know.

"Microtransaction is Not a Dirty Word, EA is Not The Bad Guy, Cliffy B is not an idiot"
Either all of those are true or false. pick your choice.

also you know he pretty much said "dont buy our products" and you are still going to run to him like cheep screaming take our money because we got no brains and cant think of ways to spend them.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

If he wanted to compare TF2 with any EA game, he should've compared it too Battlefield Heroes.
But wait, i didn't hear many complaints towards microtransactions in BFH. Maybe you can figure why, eh Cliffy?

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

If he wanted to compare TF2 with any EA game, he should've compared it too Battlefield Heroes.
But wait, i didn't hear many complaints towards microtransactions in BFH. Maybe you can figure why, eh Cliffy?

Because no one plays Battlefield Heroes?

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

The world: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2007/06/15/half-life-2-orange-box-release-date-set

60 bucks on consoles. 50 on PC. Full priced game.

Orange box had three new things.
short 2-3 hour Portal
short 4-6 hour Half Life 2 Episode
Team Fortress Multiplayer

Deadspace 3 has what, 14-20 hour campaign? And multiplayer?

So what's the difference between two short SP games and multiplayer, and one long SP game and multiplayer? Not very much.

Since there's not very much difference between the two, would you mind telling me when Dead Space 3 plans to go Free-To-Play?

This point is already diffused by the fact that the Orange Box was a retail game for 4 years. And let's be frank, in 4 years Dead Space 3 will be 5-10 dollars sitting on a used shelf. The DS3 vs. TF2 argument has little merit. You're comparing a game that has been out for years versus a game that just came out. If you compare both games at launch, both are $60 games with a lot of micro transactions.

If you really want to be frank with it, TF2's crate drops add an incentive to spend money on keys to open them. Deas Space 3's microtransactions just make the game easier. I'd say that TF2 goes for your money more aggressively, as it gives you items you have to pay to unlock. Either way, both games are guilty trying to reach into your wallet. The fact that TF2 is F2P now doesn't win the argument for Valve here.

 

[Rachmaninov]

This point is already diffused by the fact that the Orange Box was a retail game for 4 years. And let's be frank, in 4 years Dead Space 3 will be 5-10 dollars sitting on a used shelf. The DS3 vs. TF2 argument has little merit. You're comparing a game that has been out for years versus a game that just came out. If you compare both games at launch, both are $60 games with a lot of micro transactions.

If you really want to be frank with it, TF2's crate drops add an incentive to spend money on keys to open them. Deas Space 3's microtransactions just make the game easier. I'd say that TF2 goes for your money more aggressively, as it gives you items you have to pay to unlock. Either way, both games are guilty trying to reach into your wallet. The fact that TF2 is F2P now doesn't win the argument for Valve here.

It's not as simple as you're making it sound.

TF2;

Didn't include microtransactions until 3 years after release, and one year before they went F2P.
Was a complete game at release, with no parts sliced off to make Day One DLC
Has had plenty of free DLC, including a fairly long list of game modes.
Was sold for $60 as part of The Orange Box, and not on its own. Evenly divided, you paid $12 for TF2.

Dead Space 3;

Microtransactions from day one.
Suits/Equipment/Features/Audio sliced off of the game to make eleven pieces of Day One DLC.
Will have DLC, but will charge the standard (high) price for it.
Was sold for $60 on it's own, meaning it cost the full $60.


You make it sound like TF2 had MTs from day one, and it didn't. You make it sound like it cost as much to buy, and it didn't.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

If you really want to be frank with it, TF2's crate drops add an incentive to spend money on keys to open them. Deas Space 3's microtransactions just make the game easier. I'd say that TF2 goes for your money more aggressively, as it gives you items you have to pay to unlock.

It gives you both crate drops and weapon drops, and the crate drops do not add to your weekly weapon-drop cap. You get free items, if you want more, you can pay for more.

Also note that the reason Valve has not released any updates for the 360 version of the game is because Microsoft says they must charge people for them and Valve refuses to do so.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

It's not as simple as you're making it sound.

TF2;

Didn't include microtransactions until 3 years after release, and one year before they went F2P.

Lol no. new items started coming for TF2 in 2008. The game was released in 2007. The Gold Rush Update my friend.

Was a complete game at release, with no parts sliced off to make Day One DLC

A fair point, but EA is hardly the lone company doing this.

Has had plenty of free DLC, including a fairly long list of game modes.

With each game mode came a bunch of new items that dropped randomly in crates. Crates that you have to pay to unlock.

Was sold for $60 as part of The Orange Box, and not on its own. Evenly divided, you paid $12 for TF2.

The major complaint seems to be that retail games shouldn't be having microtransactions. TF2 was in that category for the majority of its release. Coupled with the fact that the Orange Box was a full priced game. It wasn't prices so that each game included in the Orange Box was $12 evenly.

Dead Space 3;

Microtransactions from day one.

A fair point. But the Dead Space series has always suffered from this so its not really a surprise.

Suits/Equipment/Features/Audio sliced off of the game to make eleven pieces of Day One DLC.

A good point, but when you look at how many items TF2 adds, as well as the fact that they charge you to unlock the items you randomly receive, its hard to argue that TF2 never made an aggressive grab for your wallet. And again, this was while you had to pay for TF2.

Will have DLC, but will charge the standard (high) price for it.

You must not have heard of TF2's Mann vs. Machine mode(horde mode). Its a newer TF2 mode that has 2 server types. Unofficial and Official. Unofficial servers will not get you rewards. But if you buy tickets or vouchers, you automatically get a rare item for completing the mission. You can't play the official servers without paying for a ticket. Its a mode made in another attempt to have you spending money on virtual items. While not DLC, let's face it, people are probably going to spend the same amount as a pack of DLC on things like this. My TF2 inventory alone has gotten more money's worth thrown into it then what Dead Space 3 will eventually wind up costing at the end. And I paid for TF2.

Was sold for $60 on it's own, meaning it cost the full $60.

As are a lot of games. I'm not saying that what EA is doing is kosher, but the majority of people on this thread who are using TF2 for their argument are ignoring a lot of TF2's retail history of being a retail game that has a massive amount of microtransactions.

You make it sound like TF2 had MTs from day one, and it didn't. You make it sound like it cost as much to buy, and it didn't.

It had MTs in the following year, it costs people who bought it early enough the same amount as Dead Space 3, and it has earned more money on the keys alone than EA ever will off of Dead Space's MTs. Call it what you want, but CliffyB is right on this one. Gaming is a business and both TF2 and DS3 have made one metric fuckton of an effort trying to get people's money after having you buy the game.

And while TF2 is F2P, if you don't spend a dime in TF2 these days, your gameplay experience is severely kneecapped by the fact that crate drops are drastically reduced for players who haven't bought anything. Free players don't get full on item drops, can't trade, and will have less fun using the base weapons than everyone else who is armed to the teeth in items. People like to say that the items in TF2 have no effect on the gameplay due to drawbacks, and that's a bold faced lie. Especially when having all of the items in a particular set gives you decent bonuses. Items do make a difference in TF2 and items cost money. Items for all 6 classes to be fun to play will wind up costing you more than anyone is willing to spend on the nigh meaningless MTs of Dead Space. Dead Space's MTs make the single player game easier to play.

Its just not fair to call CliffyB the asshole who pointed out that TF2 in its own way is just as guilty, if not more, than EA for its use of MTs. Its even more unfair to ignore the fact that TF2 spent 3 of its 4 first years after release with MTs. This is just another EA hate bandwagon that ignore that a large amount of game companies have been in the business of MTs in their retail games for a long while now.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

It gives you both crate drops and weapon drops, and the crate drops do not add to your weekly weapon-drop cap. You get free items, if you want more, you can pay for more.

Only after you pay. You get next to nothing in terms of drops if you don't give Valve a cent towards TF2. You don't even get weapon drops. Just crates you can't open until you pay. And even, the majority of what you get is crates, so have HAVE to pay up. Its no as fun being the blank slate TF2 player when people are running around in full sets that give them bonuses.

Also note that the reason Valve has not released any updates for the 360 version of the game is because Microsoft says they must charge people for them and Valve refuses to do so.

Yeah...no one brought up the 360 version at all.. I don't even think that people give the 360 version a look these days. There's no point.

 

[Doom972]

So, the guy who didn't make a PC version of Gears of War 2 & 3 is trying to get PC gamers to see that Valve is worse than EA? Seems legit.

Valve never tried to sell me an unfinished product and then charged me for the rest of it in DLC packs, and has never tried to sell me extra guns for their games. Also Steam keeps having 75%+ sales while Origin occasionally has US-only coupons.

Good games don't have to cost that much to make - Legend of Grimrock is far more fun, challenging, innovative and better-looking than any Call of Duty game and it didn't even remotely come close to its budget. If your game can sell millions of copies and still be considered a failure, you have only yourself to blame.

 

[themilo504]

Of course valve can do wrong half life 2 episode 3 is a example of what they do wrong but compared to ea and most of the big publishers there far Nicer.

Team fortress 2 was 4 year old when it went free to play that and there was a lot of free content since then so that?s not exactly a argument against valve.

Yeah voting with your wallets might seem like a nice idea but boycotting really isn?t going to do more than kill off your favorite franchise while ea continues to make money with it sports games and assimilate more studios.

 

[Rachmaninov]

Lol no. new items started coming for TF2 in 2008. The game was released in 2007. The Gold Rush Update my friend.

New items =/= microtransactions. The new items introduced in the Gold Rush update could not be bought, because without the Mann Co store, where would you buy them from?

The Mann Co store was introduced in the Mann-Conomy Update [http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mann-Conomy_Update] in 2010, which was three years after release, like I said.

A fair point, but EA is hardly the lone company doing this.

True, but this isn't exactly EA's only crime. Watch the Jimquisition episode " Why Do People Hate EA? [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5946-Why-Do-People-Hate-EA]" if you don't know what I mean.

With each game mode came a bunch of new items that dropped randomly in crates. Crates that you have to pay to unlock.

Anything you get in crates you get from random drops, too. Admittedly, you need a "Premium" account in order to get those random drops, but all that means is that you bought the game, or made any single Mann Co purchase ($3?).

I can see how Dead Space 3's "pay for convenient access to those things you want, but would have to grind for otherwise" microtransaction system is very, very similar to the crate system though, I'll give you that.

A fair point. But the Dead Space series has always suffered from this so its not really a surprise.

I'm pretty sure this is the first Dead Space game to include MTs. DS2 had buyable suits, but not this "lets make a resource system specifically for the purpose of shoe-horning in microtransactions" nonsense that DS3 has.

A good point, but when you look at how many items TF2 adds, as well as the fact that they charge you to unlock the items you randomly receive, its hard to argue that TF2 never made an aggressive grab for your wallet. And again, this was while you had to pay for TF2.

The list of items TF2 added is actually pretty damn long. And like I mentioned above, what they offer you with MTs is convenience (since you can get everything you get from chests by way of random, free drops) the same as Dead Space 3. It's a little shady by both parties, I agree, but like I've said in my other posts, this is EA's most minor transgression. So Valve is equally guilty of this minor transgression, just not of the much greater evils EA has performed over the years.

You must not have heard of TF2's Mann vs. Machine mode(horde mode). Its a newer TF2 mode that has 2 server types. Unofficial and Official. Unofficial servers will not get you rewards. But if you buy tickets or vouchers, you automatically get a rare item for completing the mission. You can't play the official servers without paying for a ticket. Its a mode made in another attempt to have you spending money on virtual items. While not DLC, let's face it, people are probably going to spend the same amount as a pack of DLC on things like this. My TF2 inventory alone has gotten more money's worth thrown into it then what Dead Space 3 will eventually wind up costing at the end. And I paid for TF2.

If you paid for TF2, you never had to throw any more money at it. You did so only for convenience.

Mann vs Machine wasn't introduced until 2012, with this [http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mann_vs._Machine_(update)] update. That's a year after it went F2P. And you can play the game mode for free. MvM is no different to many different ideas used in the F2P model. But make no mistake TF2 was F2P before Mann vs Machine. Not to mention, this was part of a long list of free updates to the game.

As are a lot of games. I'm not saying that what EA is doing is kosher, but the majority of people on this thread who are using TF2 for their argument are ignoring a lot of TF2's retail history of being a retail game that has a massive amount of microtransactions.

TF2 was a retail game which also had MTs, yes. But like I've said, not until 3 years had passed beyond release. Let's face it, EA forget their games exist before 3 years has passed, let alone continuing to adapt and evolve them. Everyone who wanted to play TF2 without MTs had [/b]three whole years to do so[/b] which is saying a lot in the Call of Duty generation, where the most popular multiplayer games last about a year.

It had MTs in the following year.

No.

CliffyB is right on this one.

No.

Gaming is a business and both TF2 and DS3 have made one metric fuckton of an effort trying to get people's money after having you buy the game.

One game was shipped at full price, with microtransactions, Day One DLC, and full-price DLC down the line.

The other was shipped as part of a 5-for-1 deal of games, wouldn't get microtransactions for three years, and released every piece of DLC for free with big, semi-regular updates continuing for at least 5 years after the game came out, and all for no extra charge.

Maybe they both made a metric fuckton, but only one of them is daylight robbery.

And while TF2 is F2P, if you don't spend a dime in TF2 these days, your gameplay experience is severely kneecapped by the fact that crate drops are drastically reduced for players who haven't bought anything. Free players don't get full on item drops, can't trade, and will have less fun using the base weapons than everyone else who is armed to the teeth in items. People like to say that the items in TF2 have no effect on the gameplay due to drawbacks, and that's a bold faced lie. Especially when having all of the items in a particular set gives you decent bonuses. Items do make a difference in TF2 and items cost money. Items for all 6 classes to be fun to play will wind up costing you more than anyone is willing to spend on the nigh meaningless MTs of Dead Space. Dead Space's MTs make the single player game easier to play.

Having bought the game when it was retail, or having made one purchase ($3?) from the Mann Co store, you remove all of these restrictions, and from then on, the MTs are a matter of convenience. Just like Dead Space 3's MTs.

"Get what you want sooner" is the offer.

Its just not fair to call CliffyB the asshole who pointed out that TF2 in its own way is just as guilty, if not more, than EA for its use of MTs. Its even more unfair to ignore the fact that TF2 spent 3 of its 4 first years after release with MTs. This is just another EA hate bandwagon that ignore that a large amount of game companies have been in the business of MTs in their retail games for a long while now.

Except that statement is based on a lie. TF2 spend one of its first four years with MTs and then it became free.

The "EA hate bandwagon" is about more than MTs. It's about the shittiest business practices in the whole industry. It's about crushing beloved development studios and about trying every penny-pinching technique they can find. MTs are just the most recent penny-pinching technique EA has lovingly clutched to its bosom.

Maybe, you should do a little more research before assuming something is unfounded. Scumbag EA earned their "Scumbag" title.

 

[TK421]

Demonstrating how customization that is PAID for in TF2, a game that was sold in a full priced box, is free content in other multiplayer games?

I have no idea what you guys were arguing over, I didn't take the time to read it, but I do have something to say about this.

Customization doesn't really matter. Every single part of the game functions the same way with or without hats/rings/whatever. You don't pay to access parts of the game, you pay so that you can be a special snowflake and stand out from everyone else. For more on this type of thing, see my earlier post on League of Legends.

Your opinion on the importance of customization doesn't change the fact that both Valve and EA are guilty of introducing micro transactions into a game that was sold at full price.

You are correct, they did. But what I was saying is micro transactions are not a bad thing, as long as they don't change gameplay.

 

[Right Hook]

OMG, why the fuck would Cliff say this shit?

It really felt like he sees video game developers as nearly homeless people living on the street, needing to steal bread to feed their family and microtransactions are the only way little Jimmy is going to get some bread in his poor little tummy.

I think the TF2 microtransactions are dumb but at least the game is free, as for Valve doing no wrong in some peoples eyes? They earned that loyalty, you twat. Just as EA has earned the disgust.

As for not buying games EA makes to prove a point? Really? I'm not simply going to stop buying games that are good because I hate the publisher, that is not a solution and Cliff knows it or he has the intelligence of a third grader and honestly believes this is a clever argument, actually not sure which at this point.

As for gamers liking microtransactions? You really think EA is going to publish data that says we don't like them? Anyone can point at a bunch of math figures and say "You see! look at all dat sweet, sweet monies. Gamers luv our horseshit because of $$$!!!"

I feel a little betrayed, honestly. I like Cliff but recently he seems to do absolutely nothing but shoot his mouth off at random intervals. At least when he did that before, you knew he'd also be working on some sweet games.