Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Silvanus

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I DID NOT say millions of people. I explicitly said that I didn't have figures, and it's absolute idiocy to descend into a numbers game. I DID NOT say that your friends are antisemitic, because I have no idea who your friends are (frankly, I don't care).
You said "the grassroots left". If you didn't mean to actually describe that extremely broad group, then... don't refer to them.

If you say "x group is y", then people from within x group are going to object. You can't moan that you didn't mean them. You referred to the group that includes them.

Even in your own quote you mention "specific examples" and "history." So you're well aware that I'm citing specific examples of anti-semitism on the far left and/or grassroots left, that I'm citing the history of antisemitism on the far left that has manifested at various points in time (most notably in the USSR, round about the 20s and 30s IIRC), and instead you've decided to take personal offence.
Almost as if the original sentiments in the article and your follow-up statement weren't limited to "specific examples" at all!

Again. Follow. The. Link.

You're focusing on the wording and not the article it links to.
I'm focused on the actual claim, yes, rather than the article it chose to link to which doesn't substantiate that claim.

Similarly, if an article said "water is toxic", and then linked to another source saying that certain ponds and lakes are toxic, it would be perfectly reasonable for me to say the first article's claim is bollocks, and it would be a misplaced and foolish defence to say, "but look at the link! The link says other stuff instead!"

This is an asinine argument. Your entire premise seems to be that if the article isn't focused entirely on Israeli war crimes, it must be biaised in favour of Israel.
Absolute bollocks. All I ask is that an article purporting to be non-partisan shouldn't exclusively focus on one side and ignore the other.

Actually consider this context, just for a moment. Suppose I'm writing an article on the breakup of Yugoslavia. War crimes were comitted by practically every state that emerged from that clusterfuck. I could cover Serbian war crimes, I could cover Bosnian war crimes, etc. By the logic you're presenting, you could say I'm biaised in favour of any one state because I don't spend every single paragraph focusing entirely on that state.

I mean, wow. Just, wow.
"Wow, just wow", you says in response to a scenario you invented, which doesn't represent my logic at all. Conjure up imaginary enemy positions and they will indeed seem silly.

The actual equivalent would be if you wrote an article on the breakup of Yugoslavia, and called it a non-partisan take, and then the entire article was devoted to how bad one state was and paid no attention to the other.

Pot, meet kettle.

And yes, you rationalized embassy burnings in what should have been a simple matter. A Quran was burnt in protest, embassies were burnt in response, and you spent all that time equivocating.
This is a baldfaced lie and an attempt to poison the well.

Again, that's another fucking lie - you're trying to turn demonstrable observations, as cited in various articles, as some kind of personal smear.

So again, I did not say the entire far left and/or grassroots left are anti-semitic, I said that anti-semitism was found in these areas. I did not say millions of people, I did not say everyone in these areas is anti-semitic, I did not say anything about your "friends" (who I don't know anything about), and I don't care about your "friends." Unless your "friends" are on this forum, they're completely academic.
You didn't say "found in these areas". You, and the article you cited, talked about the grassroots left as a group.

So yes, I'm very sorry that you've been confronted with the reality of what that accusation means. If you don't mean the group, then don't... describe the group in sweeping or generalising terms.
 

Specter Von Baren

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I think it's that Marx, being long dead, isn't relevant anymore. Now, I had thought of mentioning that myself, but how much his star is faded isn't something I can judge.
Oh. Well I wasn't trying to get in on the wider discussion, just found it weird to say Marx was a "mythical" anti-Semite. Probably just me misunderstanding again.
 

Hawki

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You said "the grassroots left". If you didn't mean to actually describe that extremely broad group, then... don't refer to them.

If you say "x group is y", then people from within x group are going to object. You can't moan that you didn't mean them. You referred to the group that includes them.
Again, this is the "not all X" argument.

I gave an example that specifically said "not all X," and you've been spending time claim that it/I have been saying "all X."

Almost as if the original sentiments in the article and your follow-up statement weren't limited to "specific examples" at all!
What's even your actual point here? If you want a "not all X" line, you have it. The article, like countless articles, cites examples, provides an argument, and you've been feigning personal umbrage.

I'll make this as simple as possible - is there anti-semitism on the far left and/or grassroots left or not?

I'm focused on the actual claim, yes, rather than the article it chose to link to which doesn't substantiate that claim.

Similarly, if an article said "water is toxic", and then linked to another source saying that certain ponds and lakes are toxic, it would be perfectly reasonable for me to say the first article's claim is bollocks, and it would be a misplaced and foolish defence to say, "but look at the link! The link says other stuff instead!"
Except that's not how arguments work.

If I write that the sun will make Earth lifeless in 500 million years (which is false), and in that statement link to an article that states that the sun will make Earth lifeless in 1 billion years (which is true), it's asinine to focus on the original figure. Maybe it was a mistype, maybe it was poorly phrased, you're just wasting everyone's time rather than engaging with the actual argument. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Absolute bollocks. All I ask is that an article purporting to be non-partisan shouldn't exclusively focus on one side and ignore the other.
The hypocrisy here is astounding.

On one hand, you're outraged that one article says anything negative about the left. On the other, you state that another article focuses entirely on one side and ignores the other, when entire paragraphs have been dedicated to the other. Paragraphs I might add have been copy-pasted into this thread, and yet you're still claiming that they don't exist.

This is absolutely insane. This isn't even a question of where you stand on an issue, this is text staring you directly in the face, on-screen, and you literally saying that it does not exist.

"Wow, just wow", you says in response to a scenario you invented, which doesn't represent my logic at all. Conjure up imaginary enemy positions and they will indeed seem silly.

The actual equivalent would be if you wrote an article on the breakup of Yugoslavia, and called it a non-partisan take, and then the entire article was devoted to how bad one state was and paid no attention to the other.
Again, entire paragraphs were paid to the other state. One of the most cited lines in the article is dedicated to "the other state."

YOU. ARE. LYING.

This is a baldfaced lie and an attempt to poison the well.
Sil, you've been lying this entire time, why should I hold myself to a different standard?

And no, you did equivocate. People are welcome to look up the thread and see for themselves.

You didn't say "found in these areas". You, and the article you cited, talked about the grassroots left as a group.
Yes? The grassroots left is a group. The grassroots right is a group. Any description of people on the political spectrum is, broadly speaking, a group.

And the article's already got the "Not all X" you seem to crave.
 

SilentPony

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Watching political talk about this for the past week it's becoming increasingly clear that the United States really does not want Israel to invade Gaza, but at this point it's hard to get Israel to back down.

This is the political equivalent of buyers remorse
Probably because the Pentagon runs war game scenarios all the time, and absolutely had run a full ground invasion of Gaza. And they know the projected casualties, on both sides, will be astronomical and there is no good outcome. It'll be a meat grinder, and just deplete IDF weapons and equipment and weaken Israel, and thus America's interest, in the region, enflame hostilities as the mass civilian casualties are broadcast every day and night an twice on the weekends.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Probably because the Pentagon runs war game scenarios all the time, and absolutely had run a full ground invasion of Gaza. And they know the projected casualties, on both sides, will be astronomical and there is no good outcome. It'll be a meat grinder, and just deplete IDF weapons and equipment and weaken Israel, and thus America's interest, in the region, enflame hostilities as the mass civilian casualties are broadcast every day and night an twice on the weekends.
At this point if it happens it's happening for one reason, Netanyahu wants to politically survive. This entire thing has destroyed his political career but if he manages to destroy Hamas he may be able to claim a PR victory. The problem is that's impossible, but Netanyahu doesn't care about logic he seizes the only way out.

It's possible thousands are going to die because one man is desperately clinging to power.
 
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SilentPony

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At this point if it happens it's happening for one reason, Netanyahu wants to politically survive. This entire thing has destroyed his political career but if he manages to destroy Hamas he may be able to claim a PR victory. The problem is that's impossible, but Netanyahu doesn't care about logic he seizes the only way out.

It's possible thousands are going to die because one man is desperately clinging to power.
Its the same logic Nixon used during the Vietnam war - keep it going, the American people will never drop a war time president. Netanyahu believes as long as there is a war and he's the "only one" who has what it takes to win, Israel will never turn on him. And like the Vietnam war, a bunch of kids and civilians will die for a political quagmire that just devastates the region and generations of people, and it was all for nothing.
 

Silvanus

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Again, this is the "not all X" argument.

I gave an example that specifically said "not all X," and you've been spending time claim that it/I have been saying "all X."

What's even your actual point here? If you want a "not all X" line, you have it. The article, like countless articles, cites examples, provides an argument, and you've been feigning personal umbrage.

I'll make this as simple as possible - is there anti-semitism on the far left and/or grassroots left or not?
Obviously there's anti-Semitism on/in the grassroots left, as there is in every political demographic.

Here's the return question. Is there a difference between the following two statements in your view?
"There is misogyny among the right wing";
"The right wing is misogynist".

Except that's not how arguments work.

If I write that the sun will make Earth lifeless in 500 million years (which is false), and in that statement link to an article that states that the sun will make Earth lifeless in 1 billion years (which is true), it's asinine to focus on the original figure. Maybe it was a mistype, maybe it was poorly phrased, you're just wasting everyone's time rather than engaging with the actual argument. It's a waste of everyone's time.
Absolutely hilarious. It's "asinine" to dispute something patently false if it happens to link to something else that's true? We just have to let it by? No, nuts to that. You make a false claim, expect it to be disputed.

The hypocrisy here is astounding.

On one hand, you're outraged that one article says anything negative about the left.
On the other, you state that another article focuses entirely on one side and ignores the other, when entire paragraphs have been dedicated to the other. Paragraphs I might add have been copy-pasted into this thread, and yet you're still claiming that they don't exist.

This is absolutely insane. This isn't even a question of where you stand on an issue, this is text staring you directly in the face, on-screen, and you literally saying that it does not exist.
For the umpteenth time, I'm not "outraged that the article says anything negative about the left". And the specific article I'm criticising for one-sidedness does not contain anything devoted to the other side. Engage with my actual position; don't twist it into something I don't recognise and then react to that.

Sil, you've been lying this entire time, why should I hold myself to a different standard?

And no, you did equivocate. People are welcome to look up the thread and see for themselves.
Poisoning the well. I never, ever condoned burning embassies. You lied.
 

Avnger

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These would be those mythical communists everyone likes to talk a lot about, but who in practice don't really exist outside a tiny rump of dedicated ideologues who'd struggle to elect an MP even if every single one of them moved into the same constituency.
"Mythical"? Marx was anti-Semitic
????? What?
Ag3ma posted about how the number of current-day communists would struggle to elect an MP even if they all moved to a single constituency. You then retorted with "but what about Marx". I then made a joke comment pointing out the absurdity of your reply with Marx being currently (un)dead.

It's pretty straightforward, but I guess that would have required you to have actually read Ag3ma's initial post...
 
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SilentPony

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Never doubt the power of words
Somehow I doubt the kid ran up for a hug, and somehow I doubt this landlord was super best friends with them up until this moment. Somehow I doubt a previously completely reasonable old man who built a treehouse for a little brown kid saw the news out of Israel and said "Oh fuck, that little brown kid in the tree house! He did this! Better get the kitchen knife!"
Somehow I doubt a man who decided to stab a 6 year old to death saw the kid as a grandchild and didn't harbor a secret hatred towards them.
 

XsjadoBlaydette

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am not able to identify the relevant or helpful words, but others gifted with confidence of eloquence can share at least



Somehow I doubt the kid ran up for a hug, and somehow I doubt this landlord was super best friends with them up until this moment. Somehow I doubt a previously completely reasonable old man who built a treehouse for a little brown kid saw the news out of Israel and said "Oh fuck, that little brown kid in the tree house! He did this! Better get the kitchen knife!"
Somehow I doubt a man who decided to stab a 6 year old to death saw the kid as a grandchild and didn't harbor a secret hatred towards them.
as a brit, may I introduce you to the multi-layered concept of repression, especially in regards to anti-social desires and taboos? we got that shit down to a fine art over here.
 
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Silvanus

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The IAF has struck the Al-Ahli Arabi Baptist hospital, an Anglican-run hospital, without prior warning. About 500 feared dead or wounded.
 

SilentPony

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as a brit, may I introduce you to the multi-layered concept of repression, especially in regards to anti-social desires and taboos? we got that shit down to a fine art over here.
Repression is quietly using the n-word in your head, and after a few too many drinks using it out loud. Repression is not seeing random acts of violence on the other side of the globe, and deciding you need to stab a 6 year old boy because of it.