Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

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Silvanus

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The standard is not whether civilians use facilities. Ben-Gurion Airport is a putatively civilian airport and it is being used to house and refuel US and israeli military aircraft; it is therefore a perfectly acceptable military target, as are the Iron Dome batteries nestled between houses or the military headquarters under the center of Tel Aviv.
Sounds incredibly similar to the justifications pumped out by Likud, to justify the destruction of schools and hospitals.

And it's weird as hell to be skeptical of Iran but not the Mom and Pop family dictatorships and monarchies who are host to the United States military that is attacking Iran.
((Also quite funny you use 'mom and pop family dictatorship', now that the Supreme Leadership of Iran has passed from father to son))
 

Thaluikhain

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Sounds incredibly similar to the justifications pumped out by Likud, to justify the destruction of schools and hospitals.
It seems a lot more of a stretch to call a school or hospital a military target than an airport.
 

Silvanus

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It seems a lot more of a stretch to call a school or hospital a military target than an airport.
That it does. I was referring to Seanchaidh's line about "the Iron Dome batteries nestled between houses", which implies that proximity makes civilians into valid "collateral damage".

The Shajareh Tayyebeh school was next to a military complex. But that provides absolutely no valid justification or excuse for its destruction: the US and Israeli forces that destroyed it are fucking war criminals.
 

Seanchaidh

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That it does. I was referring to Seanchaidh's line about "the Iron Dome batteries nestled between houses", which implies that proximity makes civilians into valid "collateral damage".
You are indeed allowed to try to destroy missile batteries in a war.

The Shajareh Tayyebeh school was next to a military complex.
That school was deliberately targeted multiple times, not 'collateral damage'.
 

Silvanus

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That school was deliberately targeted multiple times, not 'collateral damage'.
Correct! We indeed shouldn't be taking the excuses of military forces that obliterate civilian areas at face value!
 

Seanchaidh

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Correct! We indeed shouldn't be taking the excuses of military forces that obliterate civilian areas at face value!
Your apparent desire to flatten any distinction between the conduct of the war by the US and Iran and willingness to believe any media or claim that paints Iran badly is immaterial; you should be more skeptical of propaganda that justifies US aggression and European complicity. There is compelling evidence for the fact that the United States deliberately targeted the school in Minab and that the school's destruction pursued no permissible military objective. That is not just "civilians were present".
 

Silvanus

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you should be more skeptical of propaganda that justifies US aggression and European complicity. There is compelling evidence for the fact that the United States deliberately targeted the school in Minab and that the school's destruction pursued no permissible military objective.
Hence the scornful speech marks i put around "collateral damage". I'm already disbelieving what the US and Israel claim about it entirely.

The only one of us here accepting at face value the excuses and justifications of a military force that obliterated civilians is you. And you call for scepticism?
 
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Agema

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Merz has indeed been horrible. Basically supporting the US in its regime change ambitions and trying to downplay/ignore how illegal that war was.
He is also the weakest German chancellor in history, his stance isn't even shared by his own government to say nothing of the opposition. And there is zero change of Germany doing anything in support of the US or Israel here that would require a law or.

Von der Leyen is both lambasting Trump and Israel for their illegal war and Iran for retaliating against third parties. Otherwise she is trying to juggle the extremely different EU positions into anything resembling unity.

Kaja Kallas talks similar to VdL and is very far from US friendly. However she seems to still be very upset about Iran helping Russia with its Ukraine invasion (a sentiment shared by many Europeans)

And of course the sentiment is even more clear in the Ukraine itself after Iran gave thousands of Shahed drones to Russia in the early years of the war and then helped set up the whole Russian drone manufactoring industry. It was really a horrible political move from Iran that gave them a lot of new enemies.
Yeah, clusterfuck.

Europe is again giving an object lesson to everyone about why it's in the mess it is. It's just a shame that the only people who never learn are Europeans themselves. Even as they stare down the barrel of another crisis, they still can't get their shit together. This is the future, guys: Europe is doomed to be divided and conquered by the USA, Russia and China.
 

Seanchaidh

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Hence the scornful speech marks i put around "collateral damage". I'm already disbelieving what the US and Israel claim about it entirely.

The only one of us here accepting at face value the excuses and justifications of a military force that obliterated civilians is you. And you call for scepticism?
Maybe you should learn to read.

you should be more skeptical of propaganda that justifies US aggression and European complicity.
Yes, I call for skepticism; be skeptical of the atrocity propaganda behind which the leaders of the EU and UK justify their tolerance of and participation in aggression against whoever the United States and israel want to kill this week. It is not principled to assume the worst of the people your media frames as villains and lies to defame as well as those they frame as heroes and lie to protect. It is not principled to treat claims about atrocities as equally supported by evidence when they are not. It is not principled to treat claims about atrocities as equally believable when some are made with the explicit intention of selling you on your country's participation in a war and others have no such motivation. It is not principled to treat self-serving claims and admissions against interest as equal in veracity. I am calling, in short, for you not to be such a mark.
 

Hades

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Yes, I call for skepticism; be skeptical of the atrocity propaganda behind which the leaders of the EU and UK justify their tolerance of and participation in aggression against whoever the United States and israel want to kill this week. It is not principled to assume the worst of the people your media frames as villains and lies to defame as well as those they frame as heroes and lie to protect. It is not principled to treat claims about atrocities as equally supported by evidence when they are not. It is not principled to treat claims about atrocities as equally believable when some are made with the explicit intention of selling you on your country's participation in a war and others have no such motivation. It is not principled to treat self-serving claims and admissions against interest as equal in veracity. I am calling, in short, for you not to be such a mark.
Just so we're clear European response to America's latest war is extremely tepid at best. You're mostly talking as if we're partners in crime but rather than enthusiasm or open support the biggest Europe seems to be doing is not condemn it too strongly because it wouldn't be in our interests to anger the unhinged manchild in the oval office, while otherwise not helping nor hiding their complete lack of excitement.

Its not our war. Even on the (non far) right the sentiment is more that its an annoying situation and that its simply unwise to poke the bear rather than open support for Trump. Media, politics and public are all really lukewarm. Even the usual observation that the theocratic regime is kinda terrible gets made without any real support for Trump declaring war on them.
 

Satinavian

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Yes, I call for skepticism; be skeptical of the atrocity propaganda behind which the leaders of the EU and UK justify their tolerance of and participation in aggression against whoever the United States and israel want to kill this week.
Exactly none of the European countries is participating.

Several country leaders called it out as an illegal war of agression. Even Meloni did, the closest ally Trump has in Europe And this week Trump got not a single positive reply for his call for help to get the street reopened. Only variations of "it is not our war", "we won't do it", "this is not NATOs responsibility".
 

Agema

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There's an ocean and a continent between the US and the Middle East. They can go set the region on fire and not be affected by it.
Oh, but the USA is affected by it. Oil and gas prices have risen, bigly - for the USA like everyone else.

And Trump is now demanding everyone pitches in to protect the straits of Hormuz. Trump says he was "surprised" Iran crippled ship access. And I know nothing the man says is worth the fetid air that exits his mouth carrying the sound, but I'm pretty sure the US military have gamed an attack on Iran many times in the last few decades, and Iran closed the straits to shipping in every, single scenario. Asymmetical warfare: Iran cannot win conventionally, so it will inflict pain with whatever other routes available to it.

Even more evidence this was a completely underplanned misadventure. The USA could have bombed Iran silly any time in the last 40 years, there's surely a good reason why it didn't. And I am glad to say almost all other Western countries have so far refused to get involved. From a pragmatic stance, getting the shipping moving is best for everyone. But the more important factor is not letting Trump get away with it, and bailing him out for his stupidity. He's not going to be grateful or gracious (he's already demonstrated that by telling everyone "Help or else I trash NATO you ingrates"). A more appropriate offer might be "Please help and I'll delete all those tariffs I dumped on you". Except not even that offer is worth anything, because we all know he'd slap the tariffs right back on the next moment he lost his temper: that's the thing with a man who can't be trusted.

I also want to pause a moment - remember when Trump supporters thought he'd be the anti-war president? I mean, it's genuinely funny remembering back to the people who said they should back Trump over Clinton / Biden because a Democratic president would "start a war with Iran". I know they didn't really know or care, they were going to vote for Trump under any circumstances whatsoever and it was just a convenient bit of bollocks rationalisation to make it sound better for themselves. But it's still funny.
 
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Silvanus

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Yes, I call for skepticism; be skeptical of the atrocity propaganda behind which the leaders of the EU and UK justify their tolerance of and participation in aggression against whoever the United States and israel want to kill this week. It is not principled to assume the worst of the people your media frames as villains and lies to defame as well as those they frame as heroes and lie to protect. It is not principled to treat claims about atrocities as equally supported by evidence when they are not. It is not principled to treat claims about atrocities as equally believable when some are made with the explicit intention of selling you on your country's participation in a war and others have no such motivation. It is not principled to treat self-serving claims and admissions against interest as equal in veracity. I am calling, in short, for you not to be such a mark.
The issue with this is that it's such hogwash.

You don't base your decisions on any of this whatsoever. You will rightly discard what some warmongering shitstains manufacture about their enemies, and will simultaneously parrot what other warmongering shitstains manufacture about their enemies, depending not on the "support of evidence"-- for your basis is often just random Twitter squawkers-- but rather depending simply on whether they've aligned themselves against the US or not. That, apparently, offers credibility enough for a "mom-and-pop" theocratic dictatorship like the Supreme Leadership.

In addition, you will disregard absolutely any evidence to the contrary as sheer propaganda from a western imperial cabal. Nevermind that in this case it comes from Arab states that really really really don't want America to be involving themselves in this war at all.

This isn't scepticism of any sort whatsoever; it's kneejerk apologia for the most extreme right-wing state violence so long as its perpetrators make the right geopolitical noises vis-a-vis America.
 

Seanchaidh

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You will rightly discard what some warmongering shitstains manufacture about their enemies
You are someone who thought that Hamas used rape as a weapon of war because some groups of israeli propagandists said so and you don't like Hamas. For all I know you still think that. Sit down.

This isn't scepticism of any sort whatsoever;
It is skepticism with an appropriate consideration for what is being asked of the audience. Al-Jazeera is funded in part by the government of Qatar, and Qatar has ample reason to promote the idea that Iran is targeting civilians rather than targeting US military personnel who happen to be near civilians: to soften, for their domestic audience, attitudes about Qatar's collaboration with the United States. They also may simply not have all the relevant information.

Meanwhile, I've been drawing my conclusions about the Minab school bombing largely from US media; US media admits the premises I use to conclude that the bombing was deliberate and impermissible; Qatari media claims that Iran has targeted civilians (according to you; I assume that is true, though you've hardly been very specific about to what you are referring). There is a crucial difference between admitting something and claiming something.

You should be skeptical of anything that demonizes targets of US aggression because you are in a position to support US aggression or oppose it and to do either of those more or less vigorously; you are part of the big bloc of countries with largely the same ruling class as the United States. And yet you seem to wear it as a badge of pride that you reflexively dismiss claims made by the Iranian government; you are not Iranian! That is not brave!

Once again, it is not principled to come to a conclusion about some event because you came to the same conclusion about a different event done by different people about which you have different information of different quality. At this point, you presumably understand what the "40 beheaded babies/babies in ovens" fabrication was meant to do. Presumably you see how it would be ridiculous to loudly ridicule anyone who rejects those claims as "believing Hamas's poor excuses for targeting babies".

it's kneejerk apologia for the most extreme right-wing state violence so long as its perpetrators make the right geopolitical noises vis-a-vis America.

On what basis do you think I should feel compelled to amplify the narratives justifying US aggression against other countries? I understand that you do so freely and haphazardly; but why should I lend my voice to condemn targets of US hostility? What purpose would it serve to go out on a limb in service of my country's belligerence? Why, indeed, should I feel compelled to criticize how other countries choose to defend themselves against my country's aggression and manipulation? The seriousness of an accusation is not evidence that it is true, nor is describing the content of the accusation as 'right-wing state violence'; it is a good thing to challenge those who hate the Empire's enemies on the Empire's schedule with contrary information; it is a good thing to sabotage that method of social control.

for your basis is often just random Twitter squawkers
I think you may need a refresher on the difference between factual claims and the sharing of opinions or analysis. Or the difference between sharing an assertion and claiming certainty. Or possibly the definition of 'random'; someone like Adam Johnson or Ryan Grim or Craig Murray or Quds News Network or David Sirota or Norman Finkelstein or Briahna Joy Gray or Katie Halper or Glenn Greenwald are not "random", and oftentimes the tweets I share are not original reporting but comments about something reported by someone else. Zei_Squirrel, for example, analyses and compiles news reports and other documents and posts profanity-laden opinions based on that analysis. I've also posted tweets from people in Gaza, usually about things that are not particularly controversial (such as "hey, we're being bombed right now!"); that is original reporting, but the factual claims are usually not particularly contentious and in the cases that they are, it is still a perspective that ought to be heard. "What are the people subject to US/UK/israeli etc. aggression saying?" is always going to be relevant to US and UK political discourse. It is certainly not principled to ignore them.

Exactly none of the European countries is participating.
The UK is allowing US aircraft to launch from its airfields (in what are laughably called "defensive strikes" by Sir Kid Starver) and its air force is participating in intercepting Iranian drones and missiles. And whatever the other European leaders are saying, they are at the very least tolerating the US and israeli war of aggression against Iran; more than that, their participation is being called for and justification for doing so is certainly at issue whether or not it has yet happened.
 

Satinavian

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Trump can call for help all he wants. It won't happen. Which, again, demonstrates how the European nations are not just US vassals. Not only individual countries have said "no" now, the EU as a whole has confirmed it. That has to be one of the fastest EU consensus ever.

This is a US and Israel war.
 
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Silvanus

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You are someone who thought that Hamas used rape as a weapon of war because some groups of israeli propagandists said so and you don't like Hamas. For all I know you still think that. Sit down.
Bullshit. I based nothing on claims deriving from "Israeli propagandists". One of the sources i cited was The Intercept, one which you yourself used earlier. You attribute any source that doesn't accord with what you already believe to be propaganda.

It is skepticism with an appropriate consideration for what is being asked of the audience. Al-Jazeera is funded in part by the government of Qatar, and Qatar has ample reason to promote the idea that Iran is targeting civilians rather than targeting US military personnel who happen to be near civilians: to soften, for their domestic audience, attitudes about Qatar's collaboration with the United States. They also may simply not have all the relevant information.
That's convenient. Considering that Al-Jazeera is also a source you've been happy to use before. And considering that much of what we know of what happens in Gaza or Iran also comes from their state-funded outlets and bodies.

Meanwhile, I've been drawing my conclusions about the Minab school bombing largely from US media; US media admits the premises I use to conclude that the bombing was deliberate and impermissible; Qatari media claims that Iran has targeted civilians (according to you; I assume that is true, though you've hardly been very specific about to what you are referring). There is a crucial difference between admitting something and claiming something.
US media generally strenuously avoids acknowledging the intentional nature of that bombing. And Masoud Pezeshkian acknowledged and apologised for the targeting of neighbouring states. We have the relevant information in both cases: completely unnecessarily obliterated civilian areas.

You should be skeptical of anything that demonizes targets of US aggression because you are in a position to support US aggression or oppose it and to do either of those more or less vigorously; you are part of the big bloc of countries [...]
This old chestnut again! "We should criticise one, and excuse the other, based on where we live because we might affect one". Its just an odd form of nationalism, and i feel no compulsion to artificially restrict which civilians i care about based on their nationality and mine.

On what basis do you think I should feel compelled to amplify the narratives justifying US aggression against other countries? I understand that you do so freely and haphazardly; but why should I lend my voice to condemn targets of US hostility?
I don't think you should feel compelled to do so at all. Feel free to express concern only for the civilians who live in the right locations to prompt your concern. I only object when you come out with rank excuses or justifications for the deaths of those elsewhere, or approach information in such a transparently inconsistent way.

That something has been used by other cynical actors to justify aggression is not relevant here. Churchill was a nationalist, imperial scumbag, and this was cynically used by the Nazis and Italian fascists in international propaganda. Yet it is also true that he was. Right-wing state violence doesn't suddenly become OK if rival right-wing actors want to try to exploit it: its all grotesque.
 
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Agema

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Arab states that really really really don't want America to be involving themselves in this war at all.
I would not be at all surprised if numerous Arabian peninsula states were supporting the USA behind the scenes. Mostly Saudi Arabia, but also for instance UAE. Others like Oman and Qatar may be outright opposed.

They might have been surprised by there being more pain than they expected, but I think they may very much enjoy the humbling of Iran, and - when the oil starts flowing freely again - that high oil prices will be very good for them.
 
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Hades

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Trump can call for help all he wants. It won't happen. Which, again, demonstrates how the European nations are not just US vassals. Not only individual countries have said "no" now, the EU as a whole has confirmed it. That has to be one of the fastest EU consensus ever.

This is a US and Israel war.
Perhaps if he hadn't spend so much time slandering us, conspiring with our enemies, writing papers calling us the enemy or trying to steal our land we would have helped. But right now America doesn't deserve it, even if their war had been in the right.